I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

Nothing will fix to the panels as screws/nails etc just pull out with the
first gust of wind.
You could glue/foam the panels to the wall, wait until they've set, then
affix roof battens by drilling into the blocks and using 125mm screws, then
affix the t&g to these

On Sunday, 12 February 2017 16:52:38 UTC, fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

Frame fixings. You can get them up to 150mm long.
They are intended for window and door frames.
Counterbore as necessary.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Scre...+Fixing/p71448


Use feather edge or shiplap boarding.
Feather edge is cheap and comes pre-treated.
Easier to cut and fix.
The insulation needs to be totally sealed, No airleaks between it and the wall or your work is all wasted.
This is your biggest problem.

On 12/02/17 16:52, fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?


Big ****off Hilti gun?


Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

Nit sure your building inspector would like that


I'm way out of my depth here.



--
€œSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of €¨an airplane.€�

Dennis Miller

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 12/02/17 16:52, fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?


Big ****off Hilti gun?


Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

Nit sure your building inspector would like that


I'm way out of my depth here.

Wot I did (agricultural barn) so needs BC approval for house.

Use *distance screws* to secure battens over your insulation.

http://www.globalfasteners.in/distance-screws.html

Hammer drill through batten and insulation into wall. Fit plastic plug
to screw and tap through hole until seated in the wall. Tighten screw
until head is seated in the batten. Batten position can now be adjusted
by further tightening or loosening the screw.

I wouldn't use cheap feather edge for your house. It comes with lots of
knots which can drop out as the timber dries.




--
Tim Lamb

Is this kind of insulation really of any use?
Here in single non cavity wall land, I'm not sure there is an economic way
to insulate walls.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Phil L" wrote in message
...
fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

Nothing will fix to the panels as screws/nails etc just pull out with the
first gust of wind.
You could glue/foam the panels to the wall, wait until they've set, then
affix roof battens by drilling into the blocks and using 125mm screws,
then affix the t&g to these

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but probably
(slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there will be
gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have discrepancies

Is this kind of insulation really of any use?
Here in single non cavity wall land, I'm not sure there is an
economic way to insulate walls.
Brian

fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g
and v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to
fix the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

Nothing will fix to the panels as screws/nails etc just pull out
with the first gust of wind.
You could glue/foam the panels to the wall, wait until they've set,
then affix roof battens by drilling into the blocks and using 125mm
screws, then affix the t&g to these

On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


[1] e.g.

http://www.rawlplug.co.uk/products/f...n-fixings/kik/

or

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...+Fixing/p82863

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Yes to their credit this was exactly what one company touting for work said
when I rang them, the advice was either move or forget it.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Phil L" wrote in message
...
It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but probably
(slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there will
be gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have discrepancies

Is this kind of insulation really of any use?
Here in single non cavity wall land, I'm not sure there is an
economic way to insulate walls.
Brian

fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g
and v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to
fix the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

I'm way oiut of my depth here.

Nothing will fix to the panels as screws/nails etc just pull out
with the first gust of wind.
You could glue/foam the panels to the wall, wait until they've set,
then affix roof battens by drilling into the blocks and using 125mm
screws, then affix the t&g to these

On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but probably
(slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there will be
gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?

Why would external insulation be any less effective than internal in
terms of overall heat loss?

The location of the bulk of the thermal mass will be in a different
place, so it will take much longer to change the internal temperature
than were the insulation inside. However for a continuously heated place
that is unlikely to be a problem (and may even be an advantage).

(internal insulation is better for intermittently heated buildings
obviously since you can slew they internal temperature much more quickly)

With a 9" solid wall property, you are typically looking at an
uninsulated u value of around 2.2 W/m^2K. If you add a series element of
(say) u value 0.33 (e.g. 75mm PIR foam), you will drop the overall u
value to 0.29 - so the thermal contribution of the wall itself
(discrepancy or not) is negligible in comparison.





--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/02/2017 12:30, jim wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:


With a 9" externally retro-insulated traditionally constructed
solid wall, won't there be at least 2 rather large cold bridges -
one at the bottom & one at the top?

The top would depend on how the loft was insulated. The bottom there
will obviously be some, but the total area is small in comparison to the
main facing surfaces.


--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but probably
(slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there will be
gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?

Why would external insulation be any less effective than internal in
terms of overall heat loss?

The location of the bulk of the thermal mass will be in a different
place, so it will take much longer to change the internal temperature
than were the insulation inside. However for a continuously heated place
that is unlikely to be a problem (and may even be an advantage).

(internal insulation is better for intermittently heated buildings
obviously since you can slew they internal temperature much more quickly)

With a 9" solid wall property, you are typically looking at an
uninsulated u value of around 2.2 W/m^2K. If you add a series element of
(say) u value 0.33 (e.g. 75mm PIR foam), you will drop the overall u
value to 0.29 - so the thermal contribution of the wall itself
(discrepancy or not) is negligible in comparison.


With a 9" externally retro-insulated traditionally constructed
solid wall, won't there be at least 2 rather large cold bridges -
one at the bottom & one at the top?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 13/02/2017 12:30, jim wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:


With a 9" externally retro-insulated traditionally constructed
solid wall, won't there be at least 2 rather large cold bridges -
one at the bottom & one at the top?

The top would depend on how the loft was insulated. The bottom there
will obviously be some, but the total area is small in comparison to the
main facing surfaces.



Is it possible to retro-insulate the top of a house wall? After
all the roof structure has to sit on it
....

So say a 9" thick wall is 10ft long, 17ft high = 170 sqft,

Cold bridges are 10ft x 0.75ft = 7.5sq ft each x2 =15sqft ~9% cold
bridged, that sounds high to me?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 13/02/2017 12:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but probably
(slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there
will be
gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?

Why would external insulation be any less effective than internal in
terms of overall heat loss?

The location of the bulk of the thermal mass will be in a different
place, so it will take much longer to change the internal temperature
than were the insulation inside. However for a continuously heated place
that is unlikely to be a problem (and may even be an advantage).

(internal insulation is better for intermittently heated buildings
obviously since you can slew they internal temperature much more quickly)

With a 9" solid wall property, you are typically looking at an
uninsulated u value of around 2.2 W/m^2K. If you add a series element of
(say) u value 0.33 (e.g. 75mm PIR foam), you will drop the overall u
value to 0.29 - so the thermal contribution of the wall itself
(discrepancy or not) is negligible in comparison.

I looked at external insulation for this modest Victorian terrace
(albeit probably not DIY 'cos of the detailing and AIUI the need to
extend the roof where there's no soffit). I was put off by these BRE
reports which suggested results in practice less than expected and risks
of problems such as damp and rotting .

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ure_review.pdf

https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/pd...16_final.p df

Mind you, one issue seems to be the UK building industry's generational
issue: poor standards of work which DIY might avoid. Oh, I'd better
stress I don't mean every individual worker before Phil L plans which
foundation I'll shortly grace ;(


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/02/2017 15:28, Robin wrote:

I looked at external insulation for this modest Victorian terrace
(albeit probably not DIY 'cos of the detailing and AIUI the need to
extend the roof where there's no soffit). I was put off by these BRE
reports which suggested results in practice less than expected and risks
of problems such as damp and rotting .

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ure_review.pdf


https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/pd...16_final.p df

Yup they make interesting reading.

In some respects they are perhaps a little unfair with regard to the
expected savings not materialsing...

They highlight that user behavior will frequently change. i.e. people
who live in very poor thermal performance building will tend to
underheat (because doing elsewise is not economically practical). Once
insulated will then "lose" many of the savings by increasing comfort
levels in the busilding becuase now they can. ISTM that is not really a
loss if makeing the place more comfortable was one of the goals of doing
the insulation in the first place.

Mind you, one issue seems to be the UK building industry's generational
issue: poor standards of work which DIY might avoid. Oh, I'd better
stress I don't mean every individual worker before Phil L plans which
foundation I'll shortly grace ;(

Yup the devil is certainly in the detail, and some places (and
circumstances) are going to be very much harder than others to get good
overall results on.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/02/2017 23:31, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


Won't you have cold bridging (such as it is) anyway - through the long
screws fixing the insulation?


--
Cheers, Rob

On 13/02/2017 20:47, RJH wrote:
On 12/02/2017 23:31, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


Won't you have cold bridging (such as it is) anyway - through the long
screws fixing the insulation?

The insulation fixings are usually nylon. Its the wood fixing that would
need proper screws. Yup you would get some on those, but I can't see it
being much (and certainly less than ficing timber to the wall and
insulating around it).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 8:50:45 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/02/2017 20:47, RJH wrote:
On 12/02/2017 23:31, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


Won't you have cold bridging (such as it is) anyway - through the long
screws fixing the insulation?

The insulation fixings are usually nylon. Its the wood fixing that would
need proper screws. Yup you would get some on those, but I can't see it
being much (and certainly less than ficing timber to the wall and
insulating around it).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

A very interesting discussion. Has given me much food for thought. Thanks to all for their input

On 14/02/2017 10:36, fred wrote:
On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 8:50:45 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/02/2017 20:47, RJH wrote:
On 12/02/2017 23:31, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


Won't you have cold bridging (such as it is) anyway - through the long
screws fixing the insulation?

The insulation fixings are usually nylon. Its the wood fixing that would
need proper screws. Yup you would get some on those, but I can't see it
being much (and certainly less than ficing timber to the wall and
insulating around it).

A very interesting discussion. Has given me much food for thought. Thanks to all for their input

Probably worth noting that much depends on how you plan to cover your
insulation. If using a light weight render option, then you probably
wont need much in the way of battening (although a mesh finished
insulation board would probably bee good).

Personally I was leaning that way since I wanted to overboard the
insulation (feather edge or similar).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

External insulation is better than internal, because you can get a complete envelope around the house (the bricks of which become a heat store and smooth out the difference between day and night). Whereas with internal there is often a huge gap at the 6 inches of wall under the upstairs floor, which in my house has holes where the rafters go and so is even less insulated than most of the wall. plus you dont have to move all the furniture and redecorate.

But external insulation doesnt work if it gets wet.

My house has Stone outside so I cant cover it and am spending ages pulling up the floorboards by the outside walls and firefoaming kingspan into the gaps. But it feels a lot warmer.

Another heat loss was where the ceiling met the walls under the eaves, there was just a thin layer of plaster.


George

John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but
probably (slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there
will be gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have
discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?


He's covering the boards with timber cladding. The insulation boards have
gaps (where they join), the gaps behind the boards won't be tight to the
wall and so the wind will be whistling around this gap and heat lost from
inside will go with it.


Why would external insulation be any less effective than internal in
terms of overall heat loss?


see above

The location of the bulk of the thermal mass will be in a different
place, so it will take much longer to change the internal temperature
than were the insulation inside. However for a continuously heated
place that is unlikely to be a problem (and may even be an advantage).

(internal insulation is better for intermittently heated buildings
obviously since you can slew they internal temperature much more
quickly)
With a 9" solid wall property, you are typically looking at an
uninsulated u value of around 2.2 W/m^2K. If you add a series element
of (say) u value 0.33 (e.g. 75mm PIR foam), you will drop the overall
u value to 0.29 - so the thermal contribution of the wall itself
(discrepancy or not) is negligible in comparison.

Yes, on paper you are reducing the u value, in reality it's not true. It
would be if the insulation were tight to the wall but loose fitting, which
it almost always is, is pretty much the same as having nothing at all.

It's a different kettle of fish if the insulation is sealed from the
elements via EG render or other coatings but for timber cladding, which
isn't exactly wind (or water) proof, the effect of the insulation will be
minimal

On Sunday, 12 February 2017 20:33:59 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 12/02/17 16:52, fred wrote:
I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?


Big ****off Hilti gun?


Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

Nit sure your building inspector would like that


I'm way out of my depth here.

Wot I did (agricultural barn) so needs BC approval for house.

Use *distance screws* to secure battens over your insulation.

http://www.globalfasteners.in/distance-screws.html

Hammer drill through batten and insulation into wall. Fit plastic plug
to screw and tap through hole until seated in the wall. Tighten screw
until head is seated in the batten. Batten position can now be adjusted
by further tightening or loosening the screw.

I wouldn't use cheap feather edge for your house. It comes with lots of
knots which can drop out as the timber dries.

This is true.
You have to go down & select your own without knots at the yard

On Sunday, 12 February 2017 23:31:04 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 16:52, fred wrote:

I wish to fix 100mm insulation board to the outside of a block wall
and then fix t.g and v boards outside that again

Obvious way would be to fix a framework of 100 x 50 softwood to the
block wall and set insulation boards inside this and then fix t.g and
v to the 100 x 50 framework, but what would be the best way to fix
the 100 x 50s to the block wall ?

Would it be in any way be feasible to glue the 100mm insulation
boards to the block wall and then fix the t.g.and v. to the
insulation panels thus elimination the 100 x 50 framework ?

What I plan to do here, is fix insulation boards first - just using a
couple of hammer in insulation fixing fasteners[1] to hold it up. Then
fit the battens on top of the insulation, these will use long screws
through the insulation and into the wall drilled and plugged. Then
screw/nail the cladding to the battens. I can't see much point in fixing
the battens directly to the wall, since you make the job of insulating
harder, and introduce cold bridges.


[1] e.g.

http://www.rawlplug.co.uk/products/f...n-fixings/kik/

or

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Cons...+Fixing/p82863

--
Cheers,

John.
The big problem is round windows and doors.
Also the amount of overhang on the roof.

My house was solid walls.
I put another wall up in front of the insulation.
I extended the roof. I was re-slating it anyway.

On 14/02/2017 17:29, Phil L wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but
probably (slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there
will be gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have
discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?


He's covering the boards with timber cladding. The insulation boards have
gaps (where they join), the gaps behind the boards won't be tight to the
wall and so the wind will be whistling around this gap and heat lost from
inside will go with it.

I suspect you would have to be quite incompetent at fitting for that to
be the case.

If the boards are first fixed with the appropriate hammer in fixings,
and then over battened at 600mm intervals (again clamping the insulation
tight against the wall) that should ensure they are very tight to the wall.

Joint detail obviously matters, ensuring they are tight, any gaps filled
with PU foam, and finally foil taped as well as ensuring all the
boundaries sealed correctly, then there won't be any air currents
between the insulation and the wall.


--
Cheers,

John.

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DICEGEORGE Wrote in message:
External insulation is better than internal, because you can get a complete envelope around the house (the bricks of which become a heat store and smooth out the difference between day and night). Whereas with internal there is often a huge gap at the 6 inches of wall under the upstairs floor, which in my house has holes where the rafters go and so is even less insulated than most of the wall. plus you dont have to move all the furniture and redecorate.

snip

What about the earlier mentioned cold bridges of the base & top of
the walls?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
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In message , Phil L
writes
John Rumm wrote:
On 12/02/2017 21:38, Phil L wrote:

It's not as good as having internal or cavity insulation, but
probably (slightly) better than nothing at all.
If the external wall behind this insulation has discrepancies, there
will be gaps, making the insulation useless. All walls have
discrepancies

I am not sure I follow the logic of this... Could you explain?


He's covering the boards with timber cladding. The insulation boards have
gaps (where they join), the gaps behind the boards won't be tight to the
wall and so the wind will be whistling around this gap and heat lost from
inside will go with it.


Why would external insulation be any less effective than internal in
terms of overall heat loss?


see above

The location of the bulk of the thermal mass will be in a different
place, so it will take much longer to change the internal temperature
than were the insulation inside. However for a continuously heated
place that is unlikely to be a problem (and may even be an advantage).

(internal insulation is better for intermittently heated buildings
obviously since you can slew they internal temperature much more
quickly)
With a 9" solid wall property, you are typically looking at an
uninsulated u value of around 2.2 W/m^2K. If you add a series element
of (say) u value 0.33 (e.g. 75mm PIR foam), you will drop the overall
u value to 0.29 - so the thermal contribution of the wall itself
(discrepancy or not) is negligible in comparison.

Yes, on paper you are reducing the u value, in reality it's not true. It
would be if the insulation were tight to the wall but loose fitting, which
it almost always is, is pretty much the same as having nothing at all.

It's a different kettle of fish if the insulation is sealed from the
elements via EG render or other coatings but for timber cladding, which
isn't exactly wind (or water) proof, the effect of the insulation will be
minimal

Couple of thoughts.. the boards would normally be tape sealed at the
joints. Irregular wall surface should not be a huge problem if the
boards are clamped tight to the wall with screwed battens at 400mm
intervals. Something is needed at the lower edge, to prevent invasion by
vermin and seal from draughts.

The thought not covered above is.. what happens to interstitial
moisture. A solid brick wall is unlikely to have a vapour barrier.



--
Tim Lamb

On 14/02/2017 18:54, Tim Lamb wrote:

The thought not covered above is.. what happens to interstitial
moisture. A solid brick wall is unlikely to have a vapour barrier.


One of the 19 "common uninte3nded conseqwuencwes" in the BRE report I
mentioned.

"Increased interstitial condensation

An increase in humidity can result from the application of solid wall
insulation, leading to condensation in interstitial spaces (such as in
roof eaves etc.), or within the structure of the walls. In addition,
moisture trapped in walls by closed cell insulation can result in
moisture migration to the inner surfaces of the building, resulting in
mould and premature decay of finishes and fittings."

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid