Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A

Well, I finally decided to tackle it. First problem - I can't open the
box with all the earths in the way. And I don't want to leave them
disconnected, since who knows what I'll find in the box and how long it
will take to sort out. So, with a few bits from the junk box:

https://goo.gl/photos/4bWtWasWjPyH84U58

No, I'm not going to claim that's compliant with regs, but at least
they're all connected with screw terminals now. And I can get to the lid
of the box. I'm still a little wary of what will be in it, but time to
remove the lid:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.


Mike

On 23/01/2017 21:47, Mike Humphrey wrote:

snip

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.

It seems you need a box with 3 bus-bars in it, earth, neutral and live
and another row of terminals to connect the individual pairs.

I've not seen one, perhaps Adam will assist where to get one?

On Monday, 23 January 2017 21:47:40 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A

Well, I finally decided to tackle it. First problem - I can't open the
box with all the earths in the way. And I don't want to leave them
disconnected, since who knows what I'll find in the box and how long it
will take to sort out. So, with a few bits from the junk box:

https://goo.gl/photos/4bWtWasWjPyH84U58

No, I'm not going to claim that's compliant with regs, but at least
they're all connected with screw terminals now. And I can get to the lid
of the box. I'm still a little wary of what will be in it, but time to
remove the lid:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.


Mike

Very simple to just make sure they're all connected properly and leave it.


NT

En el artículo , Mike
Humphrey escribió:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

eep.

- wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The Shermans still use them.

I'd be tempted to sort out the earths (straighten them out and sleeve
them, make sure it is actually earthed at the CU), tidy up the rest, use
a new box, get rid of the wire nuts, make an attempt to trace and label
wires.

Using DIN rail terminals in a box as per Andrew Gabriel's pic here might
make life easier.

http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/cu1.jpg

So, a lot of investigating still to do

Makes me wonder what other horrors are lurking.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Mike
Humphrey escribió:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

eep.

- wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The Shermans still use them.

I'd be tempted to sort out the earths (straighten them out and sleeve
them, make sure it is actually earthed at the CU), tidy up the rest, use
a new box, get rid of the wire nuts, make an attempt to trace and label
wires.

You can still get wire nuts and there is nothing wrong with them used
properly, although there is room for error in the wrong hands.

Using DIN rail terminals in a box as per Andrew Gabriel's pic here might
make life easier.

http://www.cucumber.demon.co.uk/cu1.jpg

So, a lot of investigating still to do

Makes me wonder what other horrors are lurking.

On Monday, 23 January 2017 21:47:40 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A

Well, I finally decided to tackle it. First problem - I can't open the
box with all the earths in the way. And I don't want to leave them
disconnected, since who knows what I'll find in the box and how long it
will take to sort out. So, with a few bits from the junk box:

https://goo.gl/photos/4bWtWasWjPyH84U58

No, I'm not going to claim that's compliant with regs, but at least
they're all connected with screw terminals now. And I can get to the lid
of the box. I'm still a little wary of what will be in it, but time to
remove the lid:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.


Mike

The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Yes but if sme are redundant yet live it could be a nasty problem for the
next time somebody drills a hole. What is needed is a nice sunny arm dayy
disconnect them one at a time and have somebody with a ladder insserting
buldbs and switching switches while the person near the box measures the
continuity. If there are some that go to nothing take them out andmark them
and when done and all good uns back on a nice busbar system and check
everything works and does notgo bang. Always my favourite part!
Sadly cannot do it any more.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Monday, 23 January 2017 21:47:40 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A

Well, I finally decided to tackle it. First problem - I can't open the
box with all the earths in the way. And I don't want to leave them
disconnected, since who knows what I'll find in the box and how long it
will take to sort out. So, with a few bits from the junk box:

https://goo.gl/photos/4bWtWasWjPyH84U58

No, I'm not going to claim that's compliant with regs, but at least
they're all connected with screw terminals now. And I can get to the lid
of the box. I'm still a little wary of what will be in it, but time to
remove the lid:

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.


Mike

Very simple to just make sure they're all connected properly and leave it.


NT

On 23/01/2017 22:32, Fredxxx wrote:
On 23/01/2017 21:47, Mike Humphrey wrote:

snip

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.
So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.

It seems you need a box with 3 bus-bars in it, earth, neutral and live
and another row of terminals to connect the individual pairs.

I've not seen one, perhaps Adam will assist where to get one?


I thing I would be temped to buy a load of 4 terminal junction boxes and
wire off the lights as in this junction box drawing (whilst labelling up
the cables).

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...tingWiring.gif

In the picture I can see 5 clear switch wire and cables off to light
fittings. This would remove 10 cables from the jb and allow you to see
what is happening with the remaining cables - I am pretty sure how the
two way switching is working and that would remove another 3 cables
(probably all of them if the remaining two are just permanent LNE).

--
Adam

On 23/01/2017 21:47, Mike Humphrey wrote:

Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A


Mmmm, nice ;-)

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The installer obviously though earth sleeving was for pussies as well.

(Oi Phucker, have you been wiring Mike's lights?)

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.

The 3&E cables could be for the security lights if they have their own
PIR and are slaved together - so they take live and neutral to the
light, and bring back the switched lives so that they can be joined.
That way when either is triggered, they both light.

So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.

This is probably a case where you need to photograph everything from a
few angles having labelled each of the cables (initially with a unique
letter or number - even if you have not worked out where it goes yet).
Then you can disconnect one at a time and work out what has stopped
working (if anything) and/or a bit of careful probing with a meter. You
should be able to end up with each cable labelled, and that will make
the job of reassembling coherently doable.

To reinstate what you need you could either use a number of 4 terminal
boxes, or go for a larger adaptable box and wago terminals or similar.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:01:53 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/01/2017 21:47, Mike Humphrey wrote:

Some of you may remember when we were discussing how not to wire a
junction box, I posted this:

https://goo.gl/photos/axJ2LswdA3BvjzU1A


Mmmm, nice ;-)

https://goo.gl/photos/9ycHQLbLF987Af2B9

First problem - the corner of the box fell off when I removed the lid.
And it's as big a mess as I expected. In fact it's worse - wire nuts? I
thought they went out with the Ark.

The installer obviously though earth sleeving was for pussies as well.

(Oi Phucker, have you been wiring Mike's lights?)

The bigger question is what on earth all these wires do. It's pretty
clear that this is just the lighting circuit. The two single terminals
in the middle are the main live and neutral. There are only three
internal lights and a security light in this part of the house, yet
there are six switch drops that I can see, plus one more in the rose
next to the box. And at least two of the lights don't use a switch
drop, as there are two cables at the switch. The RYB cables are pretty
clearly a two-way switch, yet the only two-way switching in the house
is at the other end of the building back near the consumer unit, so it
would make no sense for it to come here.

The 3&E cables could be for the security lights if they have their own
PIR and are slaved together - so they take live and neutral to the
light, and bring back the switched lives so that they can be joined.
That way when either is triggered, they both light.

So, a lot of investigating still to do. Of course, all the cables vanish
under the loft insulation and boarding, making it very difficult to
trace.

This is probably a case where you need to photograph everything from a
few angles having labelled each of the cables (initially with a unique
letter or number - even if you have not worked out where it goes yet).
Then you can disconnect one at a time and work out what has stopped
working (if anything) and/or a bit of careful probing with a meter. You
should be able to end up with each cable labelled, and that will make
the job of reassembling coherently doable.

To reinstate what you need you could either use a number of 4 terminal
boxes, or go for a larger adaptable box and wago terminals or similar.

A flasher would be handy, makes it so much quicker to spot what feed's going on & off.


NT

Slightly off topic but related, I have always been used to looping in done at the rosettes but since moving to West Yorkshire our bungalow with 1975 wiring is all looped at the switches and oddly enough my daughters new build has been done the same. Is this a regional thing or at the whim of the installer?

Coming back to the OP there seems quite a few cables whose Live and Neutrals are connected to the two terminal blocks In the centre suggesting the box is being used to distribute the power to the various light fittings whilst the longer terminal strip is being used for the two-way light switching. I cannot make out what the nut connections and the odd terminal block are for but could be a loop in for one light fitting.

Richard

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:47:34 -0600, Mike Humphrey wrote:


Of course, all the cables vanish under the loft insulation and boarding,
making it very difficult to trace.

A telecoms tone tracer might be useful. Ensure that nothing is live,
disconnect a cable (having marked each cable with a letter or number
and photgraphed and possibly a rough schematic sketch of what goes
where in the box) attach tone sender then wander about trying to find
the tone at switches/fittings etc

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 24/01/2017 12:52, Tricky Dicky wrote:

Slightly off topic but related, I have always been used to looping in
done at the rosettes but since moving to West Yorkshire our bungalow
with 1975 wiring is all looped at the switches and oddly enough my
daughters new build has been done the same. Is this a regional thing
or at the whim of the installer?

Not aware of it being regional. It may be a particular preference of the
installer, or there was something about the installation that suggested
that particular mode of wiring.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 09:33:09 -0000, Brian Gaff wrote:

Yes but if sme are redundant yet live it could be a nasty problem for
the next time somebody drills a hole.

Or is at arms length under in a floor void trying to find where a
cable goes only to find the open end of a simply cut through live
T&E... BTDTGTTS.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Not aware of it being regional. It may be a particular preference of the
installer, or there was something about the installation that suggested
that particular mode of wiring.

Our first house was built in the early 70's looped at the rosettes, the present bungalow built 1975 has a single neutral that links each rosette whilst the live is a strange cable I have never seen before which is a single live and earth with a red sheath on the live a green on the earth and an outer sheath of red with a green stripe. This live loops to each switch com and from the switches a single switched live to the rosettes. All two way wiring is done with singles, the whole thing is a bugger when it comes to tracing wiring. Cannot in either our case or with my daughters new build see any reason why to me the more common loop in at the rosettes was not used. In her case it has resulted in some switches which are part of a two-way switching to have 4 T&E cables terminating in the back boxes along with terminal strip connectors terminating the neutrals and a second for the earths all tightly packed behind the switch plate even on a 25mm deep box. I just cannot see the logic of it.

Richard

On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:

The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.


Rubbish.
I would just crimp some of it and fit a new box around it.
Its easy to crimp stuff when you have a good crimper. 8-)
Failing that do as ARW says and use a row of junction boxes and label
them as to where they go for future reference.
The earths need a bit of sleeving but they aren't exactly dangerous
without it.
Some cable clips would make it stable.

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 14:24:06 UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
some switches which are part of a two-way switching to have 4 T&E
cables terminating in the back boxes

My bedroom lightswitch has 4 T&E and 4 3&E but it is a 4-gang switch and the smoke detector circuit loops in and out at that point too.

It springs open like Zebedee having an orgasm if I loosen the faceplate screws.

Owain

On 24/01/2017 12:54, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:47:34 -0600, Mike Humphrey wrote:


Of course, all the cables vanish under the loft insulation and boarding,
making it very difficult to trace.

A telecoms tone tracer might be useful. Ensure that nothing is live,
disconnect a cable (having marked each cable with a letter or number
and photgraphed and possibly a rough schematic sketch of what goes
where in the box) attach tone sender then wander about trying to find
the tone at switches/fittings etc

I would have said this was a simple job for a multimeter or volt stick.
It's easy to identify which cables go off to the light fittings so why
not see which light switch control which light without disconnecting
anything.

--
Adam

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:47:14 +0000, ARW wrote:

A telecoms tone tracer might be useful. Ensure that nothing is
live,
...

I would have said this was a simple job for a multimeter or volt stick.
It's easy to identify which cables go off to the light fittings so why
not see which light switch control which light without disconnecting
anything.

If on your own there can be a lot of toing and froing to find and
then verify single light controlled by single switch. Throw in some
two way switching maybe with other switches that aren't two way and
it's a nightmare. Or more than one fitting controlled by the same
switches.

Easier if you have an apprentice and a pair of walki talkies... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 24/01/2017 15:32, dennis@home wrote:

Some cable clips would make it stable.

Agreed, I would screw the JBs to a baton above the insulation just in
case you ever needed to work on them again.

I suspect that most of the lights in the OPs house were just run as a
single T&E from every switch and fitting to a central point. It would
not be the first time I have seen this done.

--
Adam

On 24/01/2017 17:13, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 15:32, dennis@home wrote:

Some cable clips would make it stable.

Agreed, I would screw the JBs to a baton above the insulation just in
case you ever needed to work on them again.

I suspect that most of the lights in the OPs house were just run as a
single T&E from every switch and fitting to a central point. It would
not be the first time I have seen this done.


Done that, but I use twin live and earth for the switch run, I had quite
a lot left after I ran the five room stats.

On 23/01/2017 22:32, Fredxxx wrote:

It seems you need a box with 3 bus-bars in it, earth, neutral and live
and another row of terminals to connect the individual pairs.

I've not seen one, perhaps Adam will assist where to get one?

Not quite what you asked for, but how about?

http://www.surewire.co.uk/products/l...-and-benefits/

It obviously will not work for the strapper cable which needs a 6
terminal junction box.

--
Adam

On 24/01/2017 17:26, dennis@home wrote:

Done that, but I use twin live and earth for the switch run, I had quite
a lot left after I ran the five room stats.

Well there's a reason I do not keep that in stock:-) You are capable of
checking the cable you install is not twin live and earth - the
apprentices are not.

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

how about?
http://www.surewire.co.uk/products/l...-and-benefits/

That website makes it look like it's only a concept for a product,
rather than an actual product ...

On 24/01/2017 17:37, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

how about?
http://www.surewire.co.uk/products/l...-and-benefits/


That website makes it look like it's only a concept for a product,
rather than an actual product ...


Well I cannot find the 6 way one anywhere. However the 4 way one is here

http://www.screwfix.com/p/surewire-s...ox-white/2742j


--
Adam

On 24/01/2017 16:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:47:14 +0000, ARW wrote:

A telecoms tone tracer might be useful. Ensure that nothing is
live,
...

I would have said this was a simple job for a multimeter or volt stick.
It's easy to identify which cables go off to the light fittings so why
not see which light switch control which light without disconnecting
anything.

If on your own there can be a lot of toing and froing to find and
then verify single light controlled by single switch. Throw in some
two way switching maybe with other switches that aren't two way and
it's a nightmare. Or more than one fitting controlled by the same
switches.

Easier if you have an apprentice and a pair of walki talkies... B-)

Or even just a couple of DECT cordless phones with intercom facility. I
don't know what modern radios are like but I especially like the ability
to have the phone on speaker so I've both hands free when I'm (keen to
stay!) on the roof.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/01/2017 17:29, ARW wrote:
On 23/01/2017 22:32, Fredxxx wrote:

It seems you need a box with 3 bus-bars in it, earth, neutral and live
and another row of terminals to connect the individual pairs.

I've not seen one, perhaps Adam will assist where to get one?

Not quite what you asked for, but how about?

http://www.surewire.co.uk/products/l...-and-benefits/


It obviously will not work for the strapper cable which needs a 6
terminal junction box.

Are those cone-shaped thingys at the bottom right 'wire nuts' ?.
Are they even allowed over here ?.

ARW wrote:
On 23/01/2017 22:32, Fredxxx wrote:

It seems you need a box with 3 bus-bars in it, earth, neutral and live
and another row of terminals to connect the individual pairs.

I've not seen one, perhaps Adam will assist where to get one?

Not quite what you asked for, but how about?

http://www.surewire.co.uk/products/l...-and-benefits/

It obviously will not work for the strapper cable which needs a 6
terminal junction box.


Yes, that's one option I've considered. Assuming that most of the cables
are redundant, as seems likely, it should be possible to fit everything
into one of those. Has anyone used them and has any experiences to pass
on?

Mike

Tricky Dicky wrote:
Slightly off topic but related, I have always been used to looping in done at the rosettes but since moving to West Yorkshire our bungalow with 1975 wiring is all looped at the switches and oddly enough my daughters new build has been done the same. Is this a regional thing or at the whim of the installer?

At the whim of the installer, I think - this house has a random mixture.
The lounge is a fused spur off the socket ring, that goes through the
switch to the lights. The dining room has the cable drop to the switch
and come back, rather oddly as the big junction box is right next to the
dining room lights. And as far as I can see the bathroom and bedroom
have switch drops from the junction box.

Coming back to the OP there seems quite a few cables whose Live and Neutrals are connected to the two terminal blocks In the centre suggesting the box is being used to distribute the power to the various light fittings whilst the longer terminal strip is being used for the two-way light switching. I cannot make out what the nut connections and the odd terminal block are for but could be a loop in for one light fitting.

The two terminal blocks with lots of reds and lots of blacks seem to be
the main power. Some of these go to a light via the switch, others have
switch drops - the two wire nuts, the other single terminal block and
each end of the long strip all connect a red to a black - though they
forgot the red tape to mark the switched lives. The red/yellow/blue in
the middle of the long strip is wired as a two way switch. It all seems
reasonably clear - except that I don't have anything like that many
lights or switches!

Mike

On 24/01/2017 18:38, Andrew wrote:


Are those cone-shaped thingys at the bottom right 'wire nuts' ?.
Are they even allowed over here ?.

US ones may not be but there's similar
http://www.europe.idealindustries.de/fileserver/ideal2011/files/1321.pdf


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

I aim to always install with junction boxes so that every outlet simply
has a single cable with two wires (plus earth), having experienced way
too many people taking a ceiling rose off then finding they have three
cables and six randomly-coloured wires coming out of the ceiling. Or
even worse, take a three-gang switch plate off leaving nine wires
sticking out of the wall.

(Well, naturally, I connected all the blacks together and connected all
the reds together. I don't understand why the fuse keeps blowing and I
can't turn the bedroom light off)

jgh

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:11:23 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

You must have very low standards.
Junction boxes should only appear where there has been modifications to an installation.

A new installation should have none.

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 15:32:26 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:

The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.


Rubbish.
I would just crimp some of it and fit a new box around it.
Its easy to crimp stuff when you have a good crimper. 8-)
Failing that do as ARW says and use a row of junction boxes and label
them as to where they go for future reference.
The earths need a bit of sleeving but they aren't exactly dangerous
without it.
Some cable clips would make it stable.

The point is, what else is there that is not visible?
Whoever did this is a total ****/dangerous lunatic.

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 19:00:56 UTC, Mike Humphrey wrote:
Tricky Dicky wrote:
Slightly off topic but related, I have always been used to looping in done at the rosettes but since moving to West Yorkshire our bungalow with 1975 wiring is all looped at the switches and oddly enough my daughters new build has been done the same. Is this a regional thing or at the whim of the installer?

At the whim of the installer, I think - this house has a random mixture.
The lounge is a fused spur off the socket ring, that goes through the
switch to the lights. The dining room has the cable drop to the switch
and come back, rather oddly as the big junction box is right next to the
dining room lights. And as far as I can see the bathroom and bedroom
have switch drops from the junction box.

Coming back to the OP there seems quite a few cables whose Live and Neutrals are connected to the two terminal blocks In the centre suggesting the box is being used to distribute the power to the various light fittings whilst the longer terminal strip is being used for the two-way light switching. I cannot make out what the nut connections and the odd terminal block are for but could be a loop in for one light fitting.

The two terminal blocks with lots of reds and lots of blacks seem to be
the main power. Some of these go to a light via the switch, others have
switch drops - the two wire nuts, the other single terminal block and
each end of the long strip all connect a red to a black - though they
forgot the red tape to mark the switched lives. The red/yellow/blue in
the middle of the long strip is wired as a two way switch. It all seems
reasonably clear - except that I don't have anything like that many
lights or switches!

Mike

Fashions in domestic electrical lighting systems have changed over the years.
Pre twin & earth cable, installations were even more diverse.

The current system with three terminal ceiling roses is far better then previous methods.
If correctly done, there is no confusion in how connections are made. Especially since the arrival of twin live cable.
There should be no junction boxes in new installations.
They only exist for the purpose of modifications to circuits and to repair damage.
The only exception would be "Cooker cable connectors".

On 25-Jan-17 7:49 AM, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:11:23 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

You must have very low standards.
Junction boxes should only appear where there has been modifications to an installation.

There is nothing wrong with using junction boxes, provided that the
access to them is not 'significantly impaired'.

A new installation should have none.

So no loop-in ceiling roses then?


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 25/01/2017 07:49, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:11:23 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

You must have very low standards.
Junction boxes should only appear where there has been modifications to an installation.

A new installation should have none.

Again, rubbish.

There is nothing wrong with using junction boxes for lighting circuits
on a new installation as long as the jb's are accessible. I recently
helped a friend rewire his non earthed lighting circuit and as the
existing cables were in conduit it was easier (no walls to chase and
very few floorboards to lift) to cut the conduit at appropriate places
around the landing area and install junction boxes in the airing
cupboard. This also made refitting his lights much easier as there was
only one T&E at the fitting.


--
Adam

On 25/01/2017 07:49, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:11:23 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

You must have very low standards.
Junction boxes should only appear where there has been modifications to an installation.

Nonsense spoken with such authority...

A new installation should have none.

That really does depend on what type of installation it is. Sometimes a
junction box is the most appropriate implementation - especially with
lighting circuits as is the case here.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/01/2017 09:47, Nightjar wrote:
On 25-Jan-17 7:49 AM, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 11:11:23 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 24/01/2017 08:11, harry wrote:


The best thing to do with that lot is to rip out the whole house
wiring and start again.
No doubt there is other hidden stuff as bad or worse.
This is the sort of thing ends up killing people.
DON'T try to bodge it up piecemeal.

Rubbish - it just needs tiding up.

--
Adam

You must have very low standards.
Junction boxes should only appear where there has been modifications
to an installation.

There is nothing wrong with using junction boxes, provided that the
access to them is not 'significantly impaired'.

A new installation should have none.

So no loop-in ceiling roses then?

Perhaps all harry's lights are hard wired in a radial with no switches?

OK luv, who's turn is it to go to the CU to turn off the bedside light?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/01/17 15:02, John Rumm wrote:
Perhaps all harry's lights are hard wired in a radial with no switches?

OK luv, who's turn is it to go to the CU to turn off the bedside light?

Harry obviously lives alone.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".