Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:

any magic gunks that would be worth a try

If you fail with whatever washers or mechanical fixes you try, the gunk
to try is LS-X

http://www.fernox.com/products/traditional+plumbing+products/jointing+compounds/ls-x+external+leak+sealer

Is this a "hot" water tap, or a "boiling" water one? Just thinking what
liability issues there could be if it *really* lets go and scalds someone?

On 08/12/2016 08:58, Andy Burns wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

any magic gunks that would be worth a try

If you fail with whatever washers or mechanical fixes you try, the gunk
to try is LS-X

http://www.fernox.com/products/traditional+plumbing+products/jointing+compounds/ls-x+external+leak+sealer

Thanks for that.

Is this a "hot" water tap, or a "boiling" water one? Just thinking what
liability issues there could be if it *really* lets go and scalds someone?

Its a hot water as in hot washing up water. So at the moment they are
messing around with kettles for the washing up water (not good).

The previous hot water system a decade back was a lethal uninsulated
wall mounted stainless steel cylinder full of boiling water with a tap
that would drip scalding water from time to time over the sink.

It was great for making tea in bulk but seriously dangerous to have bulk
hot water on tap with a lot of exposed metal at ~100C.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Shocking bodge. Good luck. The o rings are worth a try - but make sure the
pipe is not scored.
Why do people think tightening more will fix things - it is as bad as the
"Lets wrap PTFE around it brigade.
In most fittings the thread provides a clamping force = not a means of
sealing (pet hate)

On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.


Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

On 08/12/2016 12:35, MrCheerful wrote:
On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir (which isn't really enough). Its not an
ideal choice since people tended to run the hot tap and exhaust it. Its
predecessor same brand apparently lasted nearly a decade. Under sink
cupboard doesn't look too good with the water damage and swelling but it
is cosmetic rather than structural failure.

Annoyingly the thing is only 6m from the electric supply so an inline
flash boiler would have been a much better solution.

I found another installation gotcha (or rather was told about it today)
- the outdoor cold tap is on the wrong side of the pressure reducer
which is why they installed it at 3bar to get a decent flow rate.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

What was set to 3 bar?

If the unit has a 2.2 bar max rating, and the supply pressure is higher,
then you would typically need a pressure reduction valve installed
before the heater.

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Its not entirely clear what type of fittings are on there... if they are
threaded stubs, then it sounds rather like they were intended to take
tap connector style fittings. However you later mention compression
fittings. These could be compression tap connectors I suppose - but in
which case which joint is leaking - the compression fitting onto the
pipe, or the tap connector onto the heater?

As others have said, Fernox LS-X may be the only option.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/12/2016 13:34, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2016 12:35, MrCheerful wrote:
On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir (which isn't really enough). Its not an
ideal choice since people tended to run the hot tap and exhaust it. Its
predecessor same brand apparently lasted nearly a decade. Under sink
cupboard doesn't look too good with the water damage and swelling but it
is cosmetic rather than structural failure.

Annoyingly the thing is only 6m from the electric supply so an inline
flash boiler would have been a much better solution.

I found another installation gotcha (or rather was told about it today)
- the outdoor cold tap is on the wrong side of the pressure reducer
which is why they installed it at 3bar to get a decent flow rate.


there should also be a pressure relief valve plus tundish

On 08/12/2016 13:34, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2016 12:35, MrCheerful wrote:

Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir (which isn't really enough). Its not an

Ah, ok that looks like a small unvented cylinder rather than an electric
instantaneous heater which is what I was expecting.

These?:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/products/hot-water/speedflow

If so the install manual suggests that the PRV is only required on
supplies above 4.2bar:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/downloads/Spee...57-no-crop.pdf

The connectors are tap connectors, so as long as there is a sealing
washer fitted, and they are tightened against it, they should seal. The
ends of the plastic stubs can be sanded flat again if they are scored.
Obviously the misthreading in the past may have hindered getting them to
pull in tight enough.






--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

MrCheerful wrote:

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir

How does an electric heater manage only 34% efficiency?

On 08/12/2016 15:46, MrCheerful wrote:
On 08/12/2016 13:34, Martin Brown wrote:

I found another installation gotcha (or rather was told about it today)
- the outdoor cold tap is on the wrong side of the pressure reducer
which is why they installed it at 3bar to get a decent flow rate.


there should also be a pressure relief valve plus tundish

There is a pressure relief and a thing I think is an expansion bellows
in a squat red cylinder and a pressure gauge. It all looks a bit Heath
Robinson but it had worked like that for a decade or so.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 08/12/2016 15:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/12/2016 13:34, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2016 12:35, MrCheerful wrote:

Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir (which isn't really enough). Its not an

Ah, ok that looks like a small unvented cylinder rather than an electric
instantaneous heater which is what I was expecting.

It is also what I would have preferred given the situation.
Any recommendations for a reliable model in case it proves to be a lost
cause fixing the existing broken installation?

These?:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/products/hot-water/speedflow

If so the install manual suggests that the PRV is only required on
supplies above 4.2bar:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/downloads/Spee...57-no-crop.pdf


It looks exactly like that but the rating plate definitely says 2.4bar
rather than 4.2bar! I wonder which is the misprint?

Next time I'm there I will check the model number in case there is a
cheap and nasty one that only works with low pressure supplies.

The connectors are tap connectors, so as long as there is a sealing
washer fitted, and they are tightened against it, they should seal. The
ends of the plastic stubs can be sanded flat again if they are scored.
Obviously the misthreading in the past may have hindered getting them to
pull in tight enough.

I haven't taken it apart yet. I wouldn't put it past them to have
omitted the sealing washers in favour of over tightening it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 08/12/2016 14:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

What was set to 3 bar?

The pressure on the cold side going into the heater. There is an NRV,
pressure reducer and expansion bellows on the feed as well as a pressure
gauge. Rating plate says 2.2bar max but the manual you have found for me
online seems to say 4.2bar max. Much like fig D.

If the unit has a 2.2 bar max rating, and the supply pressure is higher,
then you would typically need a pressure reduction valve installed
before the heater.

Local water pressure is 4bar daytime rising to about 6bar overnight.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Its not entirely clear what type of fittings are on there... if they are
threaded stubs, then it sounds rather like they were intended to take
tap connector style fittings. However you later mention compression
fittings. These could be compression tap connectors I suppose - but in
which case which joint is leaking - the compression fitting onto the
pipe, or the tap connector onto the heater?

It looks to me like the tap connectors onto the heater. The actual
configuration is a bit weird and seems to use one of every possible kind
of connector including a flexible. I'll take a picture next time.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
MrCheerful wrote:

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir

How does an electric heater manage only 34% efficiency?

rotten insulation? Long pipework?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

charles wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

MrCheerful wrote:

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir

How does an electric heater manage only 34% efficiency?

rotten insulation?

Unlikely given its standing loss of only 0.71kWh/day

Long pipework?

The spec wouldn't know about that.

On Thursday, 8 December 2016 08:50:26 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

There should be a safety valve fitted to protect against over pressure.
(May be a single unit in with the pressure reducing valve).
Make sure the discharge pipe is clear.

If all else fails, take the cover off the heater, you may be able to substitute brass fittings for the knackered plastic ones.
May need a bit of soldering.

On Thursday, 8 December 2016 12:35:27 UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.


Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Ariston have steel tanks vitreous enameled.
You can't beat copper/stainless steel for this job.

On 08/12/2016 16:38, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2016 15:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/12/2016 13:34, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/12/2016 12:35, MrCheerful wrote:

Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Its Hyco with 15L reservoir (which isn't really enough). Its not an

Ah, ok that looks like a small unvented cylinder rather than an electric
instantaneous heater which is what I was expecting.

It is also what I would have preferred given the situation.
Any recommendations for a reliable model in case it proves to be a lost
cause fixing the existing broken installation?

These?:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/products/hot-water/speedflow

If so the install manual suggests that the PRV is only required on
supplies above 4.2bar:

http://www.hyco.co.uk/downloads/Spee...57-no-crop.pdf



It looks exactly like that but the rating plate definitely says 2.4bar
rather than 4.2bar! I wonder which is the misprint?

Next time I'm there I will check the model number in case there is a
cheap and nasty one that only works with low pressure supplies.

The connectors are tap connectors, so as long as there is a sealing
washer fitted, and they are tightened against it, they should seal. The
ends of the plastic stubs can be sanded flat again if they are scored.
Obviously the misthreading in the past may have hindered getting them to
pull in tight enough.

I haven't taken it apart yet. I wouldn't put it past them to have
omitted the sealing washers in favour of over tightening it.


There is a big difference between a Pressure Relief Valve and a
Pressure reducing valve. a Pressure relief valve is mandatory, just in
case the thermostat goes.

On 08/12/2016 17:41, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 8 December 2016 12:35:27 UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:
Help! Local charity had one of these installed by well meaning cowboys.

Just been to take a look. It has plastic screw threaded fittings on the
top in blue and red for water in and out. The guy who put it in must
have got both on cross threaded first time around and then over
tightened to try and stop it leaking. Several people have tried to sort
it out since with no success. They have already had two biggish floods!

Someone else has put them on properly threaded and then over tightened
them even more. It still leaks at a level where after an hour about 0.1L
escapes. Both hot and cold sides are compromised but hot is worse. There
are rust marks running down the side from the connectors.

This might be irrelevant but it is rated 2.2bar maximum pressure but I
am told as originally installed it was set on 3bar (despite what the
rating plate said). Will this have done any permanent damage?

I was thinking of taking it apart and putting Viton O rings around the
pipes and then tightening the compression fittings again. I also have
PTFE tape and circular section but I am undecided which would stand the
best chance of working. Any other suggestions for how to make the thing
leak proof - any magic gunks that would be worth a try. Bearing in mind
that it will get hot and cold cycled so anything too rigid will fail.

I hate plumbing but I am the best chance they have of getting a repair
for free - otherwise they will be buying an entire new unit (again).

Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.


Is it one of those Ariston ones? My one lasted just Three years before
springing a leak, it was not from the actual connector joins, (which
were tricky to sort out) but one of the pipes itself had pinholed,
ruined the new cupboard it was in too. Guarantee was only two years.
When I replace it I will get a heatrae instead. So if it is Ariston,
just chuck it and start again

Ariston have steel tanks vitreous enameled.
You can't beat copper/stainless steel for this job.

I had not realised how crap it was or I would not have installed it, the
heatrae is copper outlets for sure. It was the iron inlet pipe which
had pinholed.

On 08/12/2016 17:41, harry wrote:

Ariston have steel tanks vitreous enameled.
You can't beat copper/stainless steel for this job.

I suspect so does the Hyco and that it isn't stainless as there are
orange brown rust marks tracking down from the leaking joints.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

However if the threads are plastic on such an item I'd have junked it as
soon as i saw it, Most people will tell you how useless plastic to metal
compression fittings willbe in the long term.
I had one on my toilet valve. it too leaked from the start, so had to buy a
proper metal one and use that.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown wrote:

any magic gunks that would be worth a try

If you fail with whatever washers or mechanical fixes you try, the gunk to
try is LS-X

http://www.fernox.com/products/traditional+plumbing+products/jointing+compounds/ls-x+external+leak+sealer

Is this a "hot" water tap, or a "boiling" water one? Just thinking what
liability issues there could be if it *really* lets go and scalds someone?

On 09/12/2016 09:09, Brian Gaff wrote:
However if the threads are plastic on such an item I'd have junked it as
soon as i saw it, Most people will tell you how useless plastic to metal
compression fittings willbe in the long term.
I had one on my toilet valve. it too leaked from the start, so had to buy a
proper metal one and use that.
Brian


There is a weird bit with those heaters in that the plastic fitting is a
requirement of installation, something to do with the exposed element
and a sacrificial anode.

On 08/12/2016 08:50, Martin Brown wrote:


Thanks for any tips or suggestions on a better way to proceed.


I assume your million pound liability insurance is in place for this
bodge that other people will be using. Walk away!

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk