The following appeared in the course of another topic, but I think it
warrants a separate thread.

In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter (i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


Then Stefek replied:

I'm pretty sure, but don't claim to be authoritative, that the
switches
are supposed to be accessible. The full-on answer would depend on the
function the switches are considered to be performing: if emergency
shutoff, then visible-and-accessible; if isolation, less accessible
would
be permitted. Let's use common sense he definitely one of the
reasons
you want the switches is to cut power to your cooking appliance if
something
catches fire on it or in it. Then you want to be able to cut the power
PDQ alongside doing Other Sensible Things (covering with well-dampened
towel, for example) - and the "you" might just be Auntie Mabel cooking
lunch for all of you. Hence the requirement for the switch to be in
plain
view and close by - i.e. I'd think long and hard about pretending a
cooking appliance isolator does *not* have any emergency switching
function.

------------

Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However, you
know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines (well some
magazines)? You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them? Or do they
have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

Thanks.
Mike

"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
om...
The following appeared in the course of another topic, but I think it
warrants a separate thread.

In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter (i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


Then Stefek replied:

I'm pretty sure, but don't claim to be authoritative, that the
switches
are supposed to be accessible. The full-on answer would depend on the
function the switches are considered to be performing: if emergency
shutoff, then visible-and-accessible; if isolation, less accessible
would
be permitted. Let's use common sense he definitely one of the
reasons
you want the switches is to cut power to your cooking appliance if
something
catches fire on it or in it. Then you want to be able to cut the power
PDQ alongside doing Other Sensible Things (covering with well-dampened
towel, for example) - and the "you" might just be Auntie Mabel cooking
lunch for all of you. Hence the requirement for the switch to be in
plain
view and close by - i.e. I'd think long and hard about pretending a
cooking appliance isolator does *not* have any emergency switching
function.

------------

Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However, you
know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines (well some
magazines)? You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them? Or do they
have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

Thanks.
Mike

Interesting thoughts....

However, if the oven or hob is gas, then the fact that the nearest isolator
could be the emergency control valve on the gas meter that could be locked
away in the garage or an outside meter cupboard seems to negate your
reasoning.

I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen, mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob

"Michael Brewer" wrote
| Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However,
| you know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines
| (well some magazines)?

You're not talking about Gentleman Shed-Owner's Quarterly here are you?

| You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
| mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
| beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them?

You never see grease up the walls or black streaks where the broccoli boiled
dry either, nor muddy foot-prints on the lino and wrinkled wallpaper where
the cat missed the litter tray.

| Or do they have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

I suspect that Auntie Mabel has been sent, along with her Baby Belling and
slightly leaky commode, to a "Home" somewhere in The North where the price
is cheaper.

Owain

"Bob" wrote in message ...
"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
om...
The following appeared in the course of another topic, but I think it
warrants a separate thread.

In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter (i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


Then Stefek replied:

I'm pretty sure, but don't claim to be authoritative, that the
switches
are supposed to be accessible. The full-on answer would depend on the
function the switches are considered to be performing: if emergency
shutoff, then visible-and-accessible; if isolation, less accessible
would
be permitted. Let's use common sense he definitely one of the
reasons
you want the switches is to cut power to your cooking appliance if
something
catches fire on it or in it. Then you want to be able to cut the power
PDQ alongside doing Other Sensible Things (covering with well-dampened
towel, for example) - and the "you" might just be Auntie Mabel cooking
lunch for all of you. Hence the requirement for the switch to be in
plain
view and close by - i.e. I'd think long and hard about pretending a
cooking appliance isolator does *not* have any emergency switching
function.

------------

Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However, you
know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines (well some
magazines)? You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them? Or do they
have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

Thanks.
Mike

Interesting thoughts....

However, if the oven or hob is gas, then the fact that the nearest isolator
could be the emergency control valve on the gas meter that could be locked
away in the garage or an outside meter cupboard seems to negate your
reasoning.

I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen, mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob


A good point. There is a gas control valve near(ish) to where our gas
hob will be, but I'm going to put a socking great pan drawer unit in
front which will conceal it nicely to render it useless in case of an
emergency. Well, the drawers will of course be removeable, so I'm
hoping it's not going to offend against some gas regulation (I'm also
hoping I won't have to put a big sticker on the front of the drawer to
comply).

By the way, did you "hide" your switching at the back of a nearby
base/wall cabinet so as still to be reasonably accessible even if not
instantly visible?

Mike

Michael Brewer wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message ...
"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
om...
The following appeared in the course of another topic, but I think it
warrants a separate thread.

In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter (i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


Then Stefek replied:

I'm pretty sure, but don't claim to be authoritative, that the
switches
are supposed to be accessible. The full-on answer would depend on the
function the switches are considered to be performing: if emergency
shutoff, then visible-and-accessible; if isolation, less accessible
would
be permitted. Let's use common sense he definitely one of the
reasons
you want the switches is to cut power to your cooking appliance if
something
catches fire on it or in it. Then you want to be able to cut the power
PDQ alongside doing Other Sensible Things (covering with well-dampened
towel, for example) - and the "you" might just be Auntie Mabel cooking
lunch for all of you. Hence the requirement for the switch to be in
plain
view and close by - i.e. I'd think long and hard about pretending a
cooking appliance isolator does *not* have any emergency switching
function.

------------

Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However, you
know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines (well some
magazines)? You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them? Or do they
have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

Thanks.
Mike

Interesting thoughts....

However, if the oven or hob is gas, then the fact that the nearest isolator
could be the emergency control valve on the gas meter that could be locked
away in the garage or an outside meter cupboard seems to negate your
reasoning.

I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen, mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob


A good point. There is a gas control valve near(ish) to where our gas
hob will be, but I'm going to put a socking great pan drawer unit in
front which will conceal it nicely to render it useless in case of an
emergency. Well, the drawers will of course be removeable, so I'm
hoping it's not going to offend against some gas regulation (I'm also
hoping I won't have to put a big sticker on the front of the drawer to
comply).


The one for our hob is in the cupboard under it which is full of
crockery. There's no sticker on the door either you'll be pleased to
know and our house was built by a reputable national house builder - ha
bloody ha. I was in the loft the other week and noticed that the wiring
for the recessed spots in the bathroom had lots of joints wrapped up
with insulating tape. It doesn't feel like there are any "chocolate
blocks" inside so I'm guessing the wires are just twisted together -
quick, where's my NHBC warranty ;-)

By the way, did you "hide" your switching at the back of a nearby
base/wall cabinet so as still to be reasonably accessible even if not
instantly visible?

Mike

"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
om...
"Bob" wrote in message
...
"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
om...
The following appeared in the course of another topic, but I think it
warrants a separate thread.

In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter (i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under
the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


Then Stefek replied:

I'm pretty sure, but don't claim to be authoritative, that the
switches
are supposed to be accessible. The full-on answer would depend on the
function the switches are considered to be performing: if emergency
shutoff, then visible-and-accessible; if isolation, less accessible
would
be permitted. Let's use common sense he definitely one of the
reasons
you want the switches is to cut power to your cooking appliance if
something
catches fire on it or in it. Then you want to be able to cut the power
PDQ alongside doing Other Sensible Things (covering with well-dampened
towel, for example) - and the "you" might just be Auntie Mabel cooking
lunch for all of you. Hence the requirement for the switch to be in
plain
view and close by - i.e. I'd think long and hard about pretending a
cooking appliance isolator does *not* have any emergency switching
function.

------------

Now, what Stefek is saying does seem to make good sense. However, you
know all those fancy designer kitchens you see in magazines (well some
magazines)? You rarely see a plug socket above the worktop, never
mind a socking great cooker control switch / fuse unit to ruin their
beautiful (expensive) design. Where do they put them? Or do they
have hoardes of servants to deal with Auntie Mabel's mishaps?

Thanks.
Mike

Interesting thoughts....

However, if the oven or hob is gas, then the fact that the nearest
isolator
could be the emergency control valve on the gas meter that could be
locked
away in the garage or an outside meter cupboard seems to negate your
reasoning.

I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen, mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle
grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob


A good point. There is a gas control valve near(ish) to where our gas
hob will be, but I'm going to put a socking great pan drawer unit in
front which will conceal it nicely to render it useless in case of an
emergency. Well, the drawers will of course be removeable, so I'm
hoping it's not going to offend against some gas regulation (I'm also
hoping I won't have to put a big sticker on the front of the drawer to
comply).

By the way, did you "hide" your switching at the back of a nearby
base/wall cabinet so as still to be reasonably accessible even if not
instantly visible?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I used 'architrave' switches for the lighting whihc fitted neatly behind the
light pelmet under the wall units. All you have to do is know where they
are!

For the appliances, I fitted surface backing boxes to the top of the backing
boards in the floor units with plugs and sockets, so if I need to carry out
maintenance, there's no question of whether the electrics are isolated - I
just pull the plug! The exception to this is the dishwasher i left the
socket where it was, behind but to the side of the machine. However, it is
accessible if I pull the kickboard off (fitted with clips) and stretch my
arm underneath. Not easy, but possible.

The gas cocks are all accessible through cut-out in the back of the units,
again at high level so they're not obstructed in normal circumstances.

I think the best rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution and think
ahead 5 years to when you may need to carry out maintenance. having fitted
a number of Kitchens over the years, my experiences have taught me what not
to do!!!!

HTH,

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the
control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do
the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter
(i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight under
the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen,
mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to
cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle
grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob


A good point. There is a gas control valve near(ish) to where our gas
hob will be, but I'm going to put a socking great pan drawer unit in
front which will conceal it nicely to render it useless in case of an
emergency. Well, the drawers will of course be removeable, so I'm
hoping it's not going to offend against some gas regulation (I'm also
hoping I won't have to put a big sticker on the front of the drawer to
comply).

By the way, did you "hide" your switching at the back of a nearby
base/wall cabinet so as still to be reasonably accessible even if not
instantly visible?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I used 'architrave' switches for the lighting whihc fitted neatly behind
the
light pelmet under the wall units. All you have to do is know where they
are!

For the appliances, I fitted surface backing boxes to the top of the
backing
boards in the floor units with plugs and sockets, so if I need to carry
out
maintenance, there's no question of whether the electrics are isolated - I
just pull the plug! The exception to this is the dishwasher i left the
socket where it was, behind but to the side of the machine. However, it
is
accessible if I pull the kickboard off (fitted with clips) and stretch my
arm underneath. Not easy, but possible.

So long as having the control switches inside cupboards doesn't offend
against some regulation, I might well try that. Did you do this for your
cooker, too, or do you have a gas cooker?


The gas cocks are all accessible through cut-out in the back of the units,
again at high level so they're not obstructed in normal circumstances.

I think the best rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution and think
ahead 5 years to when you may need to carry out maintenance. having
fitted
a number of Kitchens over the years, my experiences have taught me what
not
to do!!!!

Thanks for the feedback!


HTH,

Bob

"Michael Brewer" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y, Michael Brewer wrote:

1) You and others have mentioned that the regs say that the
control
switch for an appliance must be within 2m of that appliance. Do
the
regs say whether the control switch must be above the counter
(i.e.
instantly accessible) or is it OK to have them out of sight
under
the
counter, but still accessible through a cupboard?


I would say the switches are for isolation rather than emergency
use.

I have used 'hidden' switching throughout my wife's new kitchen,
mainly
because I used 'very hard' porcelain tiles that were a right pig to
cut
without stress cracking. I resorted to a diamond blade in my angle
grinder
in the end, but that's another story.

Hope that sheds some light on it,

Bob


A good point. There is a gas control valve near(ish) to where our gas
hob will be, but I'm going to put a socking great pan drawer unit in
front which will conceal it nicely to render it useless in case of an
emergency. Well, the drawers will of course be removeable, so I'm
hoping it's not going to offend against some gas regulation (I'm also
hoping I won't have to put a big sticker on the front of the drawer to
comply).

By the way, did you "hide" your switching at the back of a nearby
base/wall cabinet so as still to be reasonably accessible even if not
instantly visible?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I used 'architrave' switches for the lighting whihc fitted neatly behind
the
light pelmet under the wall units. All you have to do is know where
they
are!

For the appliances, I fitted surface backing boxes to the top of the
backing
boards in the floor units with plugs and sockets, so if I need to carry
out
maintenance, there's no question of whether the electrics are isolated -
I
just pull the plug! The exception to this is the dishwasher i left the
socket where it was, behind but to the side of the machine. However, it
is
accessible if I pull the kickboard off (fitted with clips) and stretch
my
arm underneath. Not easy, but possible.

So long as having the control switches inside cupboards doesn't offend
against some regulation, I might well try that. Did you do this for your
cooker, too, or do you have a gas cooker?


The gas cocks are all accessible through cut-out in the back of the
units,
again at high level so they're not obstructed in normal circumstances.

I think the best rule of thumb is to err on the side of caution and
think
ahead 5 years to when you may need to carry out maintenance. having
fitted
a number of Kitchens over the years, my experiences have taught me what
not
to do!!!!

Thanks for the feedback!


HTH,

Bob




Hi Mike,

I've a gas cooker, or at least and oven and a hob, both gas.

As it happens, I left the cooker socket where it was - the other side of the
Kitchen. The builder installed it almost 30 years ago and I was not
inclined to reoute 6mm? cable, so just bought the neatest control switch I
could get (MK I think) - it's just a big isolator and a very useful extra
socket. I ran 2.5mm from there back up the wall behind the tiles and
cabinets and down the other side to supply power for the ignition on the hob
and for the clock and gas valve on the oven. I ran 2.5mm because I
terminated the cable with the double socket and there's no telling what the
sockets may be used for in years to come! The plugs are both fused 3 amp.

Just as a matter of interest, and regs aside, I wonder how many people in
the haet of things (no pun intended!), would take time out to isolate the
cooker if there was a chip pan fire? I think human nature is to go to the
source of the problem and try to extinguish the fire...... I think another
poster mentioned that a stranger in the kitchen wouldn't necessarily know
where the isolator is anyway. And just to finish, my isolator was installed
BEHIND the original cooker position, thus being totally inaccessible in the
case of a fire!!!!!

Cheers,

Bob