"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert_my_surname_here wrote in message
news:400d3719$0$4904
For top end stuff I usually use http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ -
good
selection of great components, good service, and good prices. £2k will
get you something *amazing*.

They don't have a very good reputation in uk.comp.vendors (actually,
that's probably a better place to ask the original question). There's
stuff in there right now about them, and the URL of an article too.

Interesting, as I have bought a lot of stuff from them over the past year
and always found them to be fast, reliable and good value.

Colin Bignell

Noticed there is www.overclocker.co.uk also - both shops seems similar!



a

"David Hearn" wrote in message
Even going for the latest chip but the 2nd fastest speed can give a huge
drop.


Yeah ... Intel's very latest Hyper-whasited chip costs mega buck compared to
the "normal" one of the same clock speed. Don't see the point in spending
£200 more on a tiny gain.




a

"Grunff" wrote in message


He's always like this al - ignore him.

The idiot seems to know what he wants so what does hew need to post here
about it for. He's dead keen on nursing it along too. What is he getting
out of it? By all means let him spam here with a good techie forum if
there is one. But not fill the bloody servers with the tripe.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Michael McNeil" wrote in message
The idiot seems to know what he wants so what does hew need to post here
about it for. He's dead keen on nursing it along too. What is he getting
out of it? By all means let him spam here with a good techie forum if
there is one. But not fill the bloody servers with the tripe.


Actually, if you'd have read the thread properly, you'd see that I have
always known exactly what I wanted in terms of spec - that wasn't the
question. The question was about quality high end manufacturers over here
and what other people may have done in a similar situation. I was
frustrated that the only place I could find a really attractive machine of
that spec for a really good price was in Canada.

Strange you should bother reading it if it's a topic you're so opposed to
.... Tell you what, here's a free tip - click the little minus sign at the
start of this thread and it will become a lovely little single line entry
with a plus sign in your news reader! Do you often feel compelled to do
things you don't like just because you see them ..?



a

Noticed there is www.overclocker.co.uk also - both shops seems similar!

www.overclock.co.uk is affiliated to tekheads, which was IIUC started by
someone who was once worked for (part owned ?) overclockers.co.uk

Customer service is done right at Tekheads though, which is more than can
be said from their previous gaff ;-)

overclocker.co.uk is run by aria - a company with an unenviably bad
reputation.

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On 20 Jan 2004 20:04:04 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

(Andrew Gabriel) writes:
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:17:57 +0000, No-one
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:33:23 -0000, "al"
wrote:

The VAT and/or excise duty however I'd be
interested to hear more about. Do I just have to pay 17.5% when it arrives?
Who do I pay? How does it work? If they charge admin, can you pre-pay this
to avoid it if there is no chance of it "slipping through"?

You would be liable to excise duty on the PC, plus VAT on top i.e.
you pay VAT on the cost plus duty total. Then an admin charge by the
carriers.

There shouldn't be duty from the U.S. to the EU on computers IME.

That's true for complete systems.

"There's duty on *everything*."

(A nameless customs man to me, at Heathrow Airport.)

He neglected to say that on some items it's nil......

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
overclocker.co.uk is run by aria - a company with an unenviably bad
reputation.


Another one! So we have:

www.overclock.co.uk
www.overclocker.co.uk
www.overclockers.co.uk

So is the general consensus that first and last are good ... piggy in the
middle bad!?



a

Colin Wilson wrote:

overclocker.co.uk is run by aria - a company with an unenviably bad
reputation.

Now that's one company I do have personal experience with, and would
definitely recommend anyone to avoid them. They make GUS look like RS.

--
Grunff

On 19 Jan 2004, al wrote
"Chris Oates" none wrote in message
news:400c5ec1$0$13345$cc9e4d1f@news-

£2000 - crikey I'd want a Laptop bunged in as well.
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/PCS.html

Had a look there ... they look a bit budget to be honest. I'm
looking for a quality PC builder who puts time & love into the
models they spec - not a big warehouse that stuffs things together
and sells them on the speed specs alone.

Testament to that is my last PC, the one I'm using now, that I
bought 5.5 years ago. It's a PII 400 with 448MB of RAM in it, top
end sound & video cards from a few year back. Go out and buy a
£500 machine now which on paper has all the figures you think
count and this one will still kick its arse in many areas.
Motherboard and drives are where the main speed is lost now on
this old machine.


FWIW, I don't think you should be looking at on-line/national type
operations -- your specs and knowledge are too good for that.

You could undoubtedly source and build this thing yourself, but if you
don't want to do that I figure you should ask around in your area for a
local "geek guy company" PC builder; discuss what you want with him --
you know pretty well as much as he will, so it's not an uneven
discussion; set a reasonable budget (my guess: a *lot* less than 2K);
and have him put it together and get it running for you.

That way, you:

(1) know precisely what you're getting

(2) can customise it with somebody who knows the merits of "this MB vs
that MB" and "this card vs that card"

(3) have a legal comeback if something's not right

(4) forge a link with a grateful "local geek company" if something
needs fine-tuning in the future.


My tuppence, anyway...

(And, no: I'm not a local-geek-company. But I've used them...)

--
Cheers,
Harvey

For e-mail, change harvey to whhvs.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
overclocker.co.uk is run by aria - a company with an unenviably bad
reputation.

Now that's one company I do have personal experience with, and would
definitely recommend anyone to avoid them. They make GUS look like RS.


Wow ... that's quite a reaction from a few fronts - I did a google on them
and found *a lot* of negatives! Looks like those guys don't have a lot of
fans.


a

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message
FWIW, I don't think you should be looking at on-line/national type
operations -- your specs and knowledge are too good for that.

You could undoubtedly source and build this thing yourself, but if you
don't want to do that I figure you should ask around in your area for a
local "geek guy company" PC builder; discuss what you want with him --
you know pretty well as much as he will, so it's not an uneven
discussion; set a reasonable budget (my guess: a *lot* less than 2K);
and have him put it together and get it running for you.

That way, you:

(1) know precisely what you're getting

(2) can customise it with somebody who knows the merits of "this MB vs
that MB" and "this card vs that card"

(3) have a legal comeback if something's not right

(4) forge a link with a grateful "local geek company" if something
needs fine-tuning in the future.


Thanks for the suggestions, you may be right. I've certainly got quite a
few more good resources to look at now, so thanks a million to all who
replied. Think I'm just going to have to do a bit more homework and do the
sums of home build v. luxury box makers. I'll let you know what I get in
the end anyway ;o)



a

In article ,
"al" writes:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Look at www.woc.co.uk. They will put all the parts together, test it,
and guarantee it. Always 15% more expensive than the cheapest, worth
every penny. Bought literally hundreds of machines off them for various
companies over the years. Tried cheaper places. always end up going back
for teh service...

I would back that too -- I used to use them to supply all the PC's
to my previous company. All kit made up to my spec. On the rare
occasions something did die, replacement part recieved next day,
without any hassel or the need to send the dead part back for
testing first.

On one occasion I was temped to buy a disk drive from Simply because
it was £15 cheaper than WoC. Drive was DoA, and had obviously
already been used. It took a day on the phone to get it sent back
to Simply. Never made that mistake again, and stuck with WoC.

Thanks for the link - they look quite good, but they don't seem to allow you
to choose very high spec components or to drop the monitor. Might try
emailing them later. Their cases look a little plain too

They'll let you completely customise, but you might need to email
or phone. IME, they'll even order in things which they don't normally
stock.

If you're putting PCs into businesses, then good service and cheap prices
for reliable machines is invaluable. They look like this is their main
market though, rather than the high end.

Possibly -- I used them for exactly this reason. I needed machines
which were rock solid. I still have some of their machines in
service, and they run with uptimes limited only by reliability of
the mains supply, but easily more than a year.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Colin Wilson" wrote in message
t...
Noticed there is www.overclocker.co.uk also - both shops seems similar!

www.overclock.co.uk is affiliated to tekheads, which was IIUC started by
someone who was once worked for (part owned ?) overclockers.co.uk

Overclock has nothing to do with Tekheads.

Tekheads was started by 2 former employee's of the overclockingstore.co.uk

al wrote:

"Harvey Van Sickle" wrote in message

FWIW, I don't think you should be looking at on-line/national type
operations -- your specs and knowledge are too good for that.

I would go along with that...

You could undoubtedly source and build this thing yourself, but if you
don't want to do that I figure you should ask around in your area for a
local "geek guy company" PC builder; discuss what you want with him --
you know pretty well as much as he will, so it's not an uneven
discussion; set a reasonable budget (my guess: a *lot* less than 2K);
and have him put it together and get it running for you.

snip

Thanks for the suggestions, you may be right. I've certainly got quite a
few more good resources to look at now, so thanks a million to all who
replied. Think I'm just going to have to do a bit more homework and do the
sums of home build v. luxury box makers. I'll let you know what I get in
the end anyway ;o)

BLATANT_PLUG_MODE

I know a company that is happy to tackle specialist PC requirements - I
work for them ;-) If you want to drop me an email, I would be quite
happy to get you a quote against your spec.

/BLATANT_PLUG_MODE


--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:00wPb.26421

BLATANT_PLUG_MODE

I know a company that is happy to tackle specialist PC requirements - I
work for them ;-) If you want to drop me an email, I would be quite
happy to get you a quote against your spec.

/BLATANT_PLUG_MODE


I might take you up on that - I've saved your details till I get some time
at the weekend. Where are your lot based out of interest?



a

Overclock has nothing to do with Tekheads.
Tekheads was started by 2 former employee's of the overclockingstore.co.uk

My bad, there`s so many with a similar name and i`m losing the plot with
them all now :-}

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--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

al wrote:

I might take you up on that - I've saved your details till I get some time
at the weekend. Where are your lot based out of interest?

We are in Southend-on-Sea....

(but then Amtrak will deliver most places ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Grunff wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:

For top end stuff I usually use http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ -
good selection of great components, good service, and good prices.
£2k will get you something *amazing*.


They don't have a very good reputation in uk.comp.vendors (actually,
that's probably a better place to ask the original question). There's
stuff in there right now about them, and the URL of an article too.


I don't follow that NG, but that really surprises me. They are just
about the one supplier who's never let me down.

I don't follow it either, but it doesn't suprise me one bit, judging
from the problems a colleague of mine is having with them.

"Peter Crosland" wrote in message
...
Unless you are into gaming in a big way you don't need to spend even £1k
let
alone 2!


I very much beg to differ!!! If you want to even look at any new games in a
year's time, such a machine won't even run them. I'm not looking for some
cheap heap that surfs the web and loads MS Office quickly!

I have asked a few questions in this group in the past, now a post has
come up where I have alot of knowledge, thought I'd give something
back! :-)

I have worked in the PC industry for many years now and during my time
have visited many of the tier one and smaller suppliers' facilities.

I can tell you that contary to what many people proberbly beleive, the
tier one suppliers *do* test their products compatibility and
reliability for some time prior to releasing them to market. This is
done (in the main) to reduce their after sales costs, the more
reliable their product, the more money they make!

They have teams of people carrying out this testing, working alongside
the suppliers of components to produce the best quality product they
can that meets the price points expected by the market (i.e. us, the
customer).

Why am I telling you all this? Well, if the OEM sells less than 100k
units pa, they have no chance of obtaining the kind of support offered
to the major OEMs. Which means PCs purchased from the smaller players
[ 100k units pa] have more chance of failing or causing compatibility
issues than from major suppliers [statistically] generally speaking.

I have heard the term 'Optimising' used in this thread, unless you
have strong links with the component manufacturers, there is very
little 'optimising' that can be carried out on todays hardware. (Major
OEMs can have drivers re-written, firmware changed, BIOS's re-written
etc... simply put small OEM's don't have a hope of competing with them
on 'optimising' for both speed *and* reliability).

Perhaps I should lay out some of my bare minimum requirements:
Intel or AMD - don't mind, but no more than one down from current fastest
CPU
At least 2GB of *FAST* RAM (not cheap no-brand crap ... really Corsair are
my favourite here)
2 HDDs - one about 60GB, the other about 160GB - both SATA, min 7200rpm
Optical - one reader (all formats), one writer (all formats - including both
DVD!)
ATi Radeon 9800XT 256 graphics card
Sound Blaster Audigy 2ZS sound card
Decent speakers - at least 5.1 sound

That spec of PC if built by a major OEM would proberbly retail around
1,500 UKP. 2k should get you bigger HDDs and faster processor. The
problem will be finding a major OEM with your exact requirements.

However, banging the bits together in a warehouse does not make a good PC
necessarily! High end manufacturers spend a lot of time testing and working
with the OEMs to produce stuff that works really well together. VoodooPC
win tonnes of awards in the US - I'm trying to find a UK equivalent to
compare with.

For the record, I would not personally consider VPC to come close to
the major OEMs in terms of testing and reliability. Trust me, any OEM
can win 'awards' if they provide the *reviewer* the right hardware at
the right time!

If I were spending 2k on a PC, I would _only_ buy it from a major OEM.
I like the comfort of knowing that it has been tested by a *team* for
compatibility / reliability, have backup incase of issues arrising in
the future e.g. software / driver / firmware updates but most of all
the warranty in case of failure.

L.N.

P.S. For those wondering, NO, I don't work for any of the major OEMs
but I have visited the manufacturing facilities for 90% of them!

"Left Nothing" wrote in message
I have heard the term 'Optimising' used in this thread, unless you
have strong links with the component manufacturers, there is very
little 'optimising' that can be carried out on todays hardware. (Major
OEMs can have drivers re-written, firmware changed, BIOS's re-written
etc... simply put small OEM's don't have a hope of competing with them
on 'optimising' for both speed *and* reliability).

BIOS/firmware change is something VPC claim to have done with ATi &
NVidia...

That spec of PC if built by a major OEM would proberbly retail around
1,500 UKP. 2k should get you bigger HDDs and faster processor. The
problem will be finding a major OEM with your exact requirements.


Really, out of the big OEMs, I only really think of Dell for home systems.
They just don't cater for my market and cost LOADS more when you start
adding all my extra bits

For the record, I would not personally consider VPC to come close to
the major OEMs in terms of testing and reliability. Trust me, any OEM
can win 'awards' if they provide the *reviewer* the right hardware at
the right time!

Granted, I don't know a lot about the company, but the reviewers weren't
small time mags & nerd pages, they should know what they're doing. Valid
point about making a prototype that is cool, but reading between the lines,
my guess is that they actually make quite good systems. Quite a few US
hobbyist pages point to them too, which is always a good sign.

If I were spending 2k on a PC, I would _only_ buy it from a major OEM.
I like the comfort of knowing that it has been tested by a *team* for
compatibility / reliability, have backup incase of issues arrising in
the future e.g. software / driver / firmware updates but most of all
the warranty in case of failure.


The problem is, someone like Dell, IBM, HP, etc. aren't going to spend the
time you'd think configuring systems. They bang stuff together for high
volume sales. Their main market is the sub-£1000 stuff, which is just a
bunch of cheap bits bunged together. They *do* have good relationships with
the "bits" companies, because they are spending so much money on them. It's
all a bit mass-production. Fine china doesn't come from a 500,000 unit a
day factory, it comes from small, loving businesses who care about what they
sell. Same with cars ... except there's only about 3 car companies left in
the world now!!!


a

Left Nothing wrote:

I always find it interesting to see these differing perspectives.

I have worked in the PC industry for many years now and during my time
have visited many of the tier one and smaller suppliers' facilities.

I can tell you that contary to what many people proberbly beleive, the
tier one suppliers *do* test their products compatibility and
reliability for some time prior to releasing them to market. This is
done (in the main) to reduce their after sales costs, the more
reliable their product, the more money they make!

Quite prepared to accept that...

They have teams of people carrying out this testing, working alongside
the suppliers of components to produce the best quality product they
can that meets the price points expected by the market (i.e. us, the
customer).

and that...

Why am I telling you all this? Well, if the OEM sells less than 100k
units pa, they have no chance of obtaining the kind of support offered

also probably true...

to the major OEMs. Which means PCs purchased from the smaller players
[ 100k units pa] have more chance of failing or causing compatibility
issues than from major suppliers [statistically] generally speaking.

Not sure about that - it does depend on the skill and experience of the
"white box" builder though - so there is more of an element of lottery
perhaps unless you know the small system builder by reputation.

Note also that some of the big OEMs can have quite frightening return
rates on some kit - Dell and laptops for example.

I have heard the term 'Optimising' used in this thread, unless you
have strong links with the component manufacturers, there is very
little 'optimising' that can be carried out on todays hardware. (Major
OEMs can have drivers re-written, firmware changed, BIOS's re-written
etc... simply put small OEM's don't have a hope of competing with them
on 'optimising' for both speed *and* reliability).

In the sense of hardware optimisation etc you are right - I doubt even
the big OEMs would want to routinely go in for BIOS rewrites etc. The
areas where the smaller dealers will win are on service and attention to
detail.

That spec of PC if built by a major OEM would proberbly retail around
1,500 UKP. 2k should get you bigger HDDs and faster processor. The
problem will be finding a major OEM with your exact requirements.

true - also as a home user looking for a top end system you are often
wanting to specify things that the big OEMs give you no control over at
all (like getting a case that makes good use of internal space - has
enough free internal drive bays - with good filtered air flow over them
etc).

If I were spending 2k on a PC, I would _only_ buy it from a major OEM.
I like the comfort of knowing that it has been tested by a *team* for
compatibility / reliability, have backup incase of issues arrising in
the future e.g. software / driver / firmware updates but most of all
the warranty in case of failure.

This is the statement that give me the biggest difficulty! Yes the basic
package of components used for the system will have been tested for
compatibility, and the assembled unit you buy will have had some burn in
testing - but that will be true for most small system builders as well.

Firmware updates etc are mostly produced by the components vendors - the
big OEM may package them and make them easy to find on their web site -
but that is normally the extent of the service.

It is in the backup and service issues where you can really win with the
smaller players, plus attention to detail on the things that matter to
the customer now and in the future (rather than things that cut
production and support costs for the OEM):

If you phone a big OEM for tech support you get routed to a call centre
staffed by a (relatively) non skilled person with a check list to
follow. This is usually a painful experience that is often a waste of
time, where you go over all the fault finding tests you have already
done, and try to ignore the instruction to "just re-install windows from
your recovery CD". Next time you phone you can't talk to the same person
again. It may take many calls (and hours in telephone queues) just
trying to get to talk to the "level 3" technical bod who you can
actually communicate with on equal terms!

With the smaller dealer you may get to talk to the same person each time
- who remembers what you said in a phone call a couple of days ago and
can carry on with the diagnosis where you left off - not with the next
check list.

When you look at you nice new big OEM box it may work fine up until you
want to upgrade it. You open its nice corporate friendly "tool free"
chassis, ready to install a extra hard drive and find there are no spare
mounting bays, or the "value added" design of the "sleek low profile
case design with PCI riser" means the card if half an inch too tall!

A few years down the road you decide that the base computer is fine but
it is time for a motherboard, CPU and RAM upgrade. Then you find the big
OEM used a non standard motherboard layout, and the PSU connector is not
the same.

L.N.

P.S. For those wondering, NO, I don't work for any of the major OEMs
but I have visited the manufacturing facilities for 90% of them!

Not knocking the big OEMs - much of their output is very well suited for
their main target market (i.e. businesses), just highlighting that the
things that can make a great supplier for business customers can also
work against the discerning home customer.

--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote in message .. .
to the major OEMs. Which means PCs purchased from the smaller players
[ 100k units pa] have more chance of failing or causing compatibility
issues than from major suppliers [statistically] generally speaking.

Not sure about that - it does depend on the skill and experience of the
"white box" builder though - so there is more of an element of lottery
perhaps unless you know the small system builder by reputation.

Agreed that the *build quality* will depend on the experience of the
builder but there is more probability of compatibility & reliability
issues with these smaller white box builders.

Note also that some of the big OEMs can have quite frightening return
rates on some kit - Dell and laptops for example.

Agreed! - Like everything in life, there will always be mistakes made
or things overlooked. The better OEMs will learn from them and make
sure they don't make the same mistakes again.

In the sense of hardware optimisation etc you are right - I doubt even
the big OEMs would want to routinely go in for BIOS rewrites etc. The
areas where the smaller dealers will win are on service and attention to
detail.

Most major OEMs will have the BIOS re-written when the motherboards
are first introduced into their range, then slight modifications are
made as new technology is introduced. Firmware on things such as
optical drives, HDDs & modems are modified to increase reliability or
speed depending on the application of the units.

true - also as a home user looking for a top end system you are often
wanting to specify things that the big OEMs give you no control over at
all (like getting a case that makes good use of internal space - has
enough free internal drive bays - with good filtered air flow over them
etc).

Agreed, cases are one of the things that you will very rarely be able
to specify from major OEMs. This is due to the corp identity mainly
although alot of R&D work is carried out on the case design prior to
production.

Firmware updates etc are mostly produced by the components vendors - the
big OEM may package them and make them easy to find on their web site -
but that is normally the extent of the service.

This is true for the smaller players, the big OEMs have access to more
source code than you may imagine! Some employ teams of engineers
in-house others have contracts with external sources to
modify/optimise as necessary!

If you phone a big OEM for tech support you get routed to a call centre
staffed by a (relatively) non skilled person with a check list to
follow. This is usually a painful experience that is often a waste of
time, where you go over all the fault finding tests you have already
done, and try to ignore the instruction to "just re-install windows from
your recovery CD". Next time you phone you can't talk to the same person
again. It may take many calls (and hours in telephone queues) just
trying to get to talk to the "level 3" technical bod who you can
actually communicate with on equal terms!

Agreed, the difference is that a CC has the backup of the
manufacturers, developers, R&D labs etc whereas the smaller dealer has
access to a much lower level 'dealer line' at the manufacturers or the
same access as the public to their web sites.

Due to the 'mass production' aspect of the major OEMs, many problems
will have already been resolved before you actually notice they exist!

With the smaller dealer you may get to talk to the same person each time
- who remembers what you said in a phone call a couple of days ago and
can carry on with the diagnosis where you left off - not with the next
check list.

Most CCs will use some form of call logging software to track previous
calls from customers. Although not as good as speaking to the same
person again, should help them in continuing the diagnostics process.

As nearly all CCs actually cost the OEM/retailer to run (premium rate
lines nowhere near cover the cost of running a large CC!), it is in
their interest to *resolve your problem* in the shortest, most
efficent way possible.

The problems usually arrise when the staff don't have the same
commitment to their customers as the management does!

When you look at you nice new big OEM box it may work fine up until you
want to upgrade it. You open its nice corporate friendly "tool free"
chassis, ready to install a extra hard drive and find there are no spare
mounting bays, or the "value added" design of the "sleek low profile
case design with PCI riser" means the card if half an inch too tall!

I have not seen any major OEMs ship products with riser cards in for
years, the cost of R&D, production and warranty is too much to warrant
them!

They are usually only used now in specialised hardware or where a
specific design requirement exists.

A few years down the road you decide that the base computer is fine but
it is time for a motherboard, CPU and RAM upgrade. Then you find the big
OEM used a non standard motherboard layout, and the PSU connector is not
the same.

Again, see above!

Not knocking the big OEMs - much of their output is very well suited for
their main target market (i.e. businesses), just highlighting that the
things that can make a great supplier for business customers can also
work against the discerning home customer.

As businesses are very slow to upgrade their hardware, they also need
to cater for the home market! - A good percentage of most major OEMs
volume will be to the home user.

For a low cost PC, built to an exact specification, your local PC
builder is proberbly the best option if you have little experience.
Personally I would source the components online and D-I-Y it myself
:-) (had to get a reference to D-I-Y in somewhere! :-)


L.N.

"al" wrote in message ...
For the record, I would not personally consider VPC to come close to
the major OEMs in terms of testing and reliability. Trust me, any OEM
can win 'awards' if they provide the *reviewer* the right hardware at
the right time!

Granted, I don't know a lot about the company, but the reviewers weren't
small time mags & nerd pages, they should know what they're doing. Valid
point about making a prototype that is cool, but reading between the lines,
my guess is that they actually make quite good systems. Quite a few US
hobbyist pages point to them too, which is always a good sign.

I don't know enough about them to say if they are good or bad, all I
can say is they won't have done the same amount of testing as the
major OEMs, they simply couldn't afford it.

If I were spending 2k on a PC, I would _only_ buy it from a major OEM.
The problem is, someone like Dell, IBM, HP, etc. aren't going to spend the
time you'd think configuring systems. They bang stuff together for high
volume sales. Their main market is the sub-£1000 stuff, which is just a

See my other post! - It is in their interest to configure and test
their units to avoid costly returns and after sales support costs.
"Bang[ing] stuff" together is more akin to the 10k pa suppliers IME.

Before a new PC range is released, a major OEM will have used several
teams of people to test the product for several months! - Thats alot
of man hours! (Remember they also have access to new techology long
before it hits the shelves)

L.N.

Left Nothing wrote:

Agreed that the *build quality* will depend on the experience of the
builder but there is more probability of compatibility & reliability
issues with these smaller white box builders.

Not seen much evidence of that - oddly it is often systems from the
middle tier vendors that seem to cause our cutomers most grief.

Note also that some of the big OEMs can have quite frightening return
rates on some kit - Dell and laptops for example.


Agreed! - Like everything in life, there will always be mistakes made
or things overlooked. The better OEMs will learn from them and make
sure they don't make the same mistakes again.

Oddly some don't seem to bother with some product range... perhaps they
have worked out the economics and decided that it is actually cheaper to
ship out replacements to 30% of their customers for a certain product in
their range.

made as new technology is introduced. Firmware on things such as
optical drives, HDDs & modems are modified to increase reliability or
speed depending on the application of the units.

Hmm - next time you talk to a big OEM tell them you want a DVD drive
without RPC2 region restrictions.... ;-)

(Something small dealers will be able to deliver without too much
difficulty)

Agreed, cases are one of the things that you will very rarely be able
to specify from major OEMs. This is due to the corp identity mainly
although alot of R&D work is carried out on the case design prior to
production.

Often that R&D is focussed on reduced cost of ownership though - not
expandabilty.

Agreed, the difference is that a CC has the backup of the
manufacturers, developers, R&D labs etc whereas the smaller dealer has
access to a much lower level 'dealer line' at the manufacturers or the
same access as the public to their web sites.

Most corporate buyers using the channel, have acces to slightly better
info than Joe Public. More importantly though they often have more
incentive you use it to resolve your problem. Many OEMs just dont have
the customer commitment for non business users (or at lest finding the
one in five members of staff who do is the trickey bit)

As nearly all CCs actually cost the OEM/retailer to run (premium rate
lines nowhere near cover the cost of running a large CC!), it is in
their interest to *resolve your problem* in the shortest, most
efficent way possible.

Yup doing support is expensive - shame that the biggest of them are so
hopeless at achieving that goal then ;-)

The problems usually arrise when the staff don't have the same
commitment to their customers as the management does!

Very true...

(Must admit if I were working in a call centre with Joe Public on the
phone all day with daft problems mostly of their own creation, I most
likely would loose the ability to be civil within the space of a
morning! - not a job I envy at all!)

I have not seen any major OEMs ship products with riser cards in for
years, the cost of R&D, production and warranty is too much to warrant
them!

You can probably still get Optiplex systems from Dell that still use
them. Also any rack mount stuff under 3U will have them (not that many
home users will buy rack mount!)

A few years down the road you decide that the base computer is fine but
it is time for a motherboard, CPU and RAM upgrade. Then you find the big
OEM used a non standard motherboard layout, and the PSU connector is not
the same.


Again, see above!

Saw a new HP (low end system) the other day with a bespoke PSU (standard
connector for once - but an odd case size). Seen plenty of newish Dells
with non standard motherboard mounting locations etc. So they are still
about.

As businesses are very slow to upgrade their hardware, they also need
to cater for the home market! - A good percentage of most major OEMs
volume will be to the home user.

Alot are now realising that - it is taking them time to adjust to the
differing needs. They also tend to have different CCs for home and
business users - the home ones are oftne not a patch on the business ones.

For a low cost PC, built to an exact specification, your local PC
builder is proberbly the best option if you have little experience.

For a low cost system I would say that any supplier is probably OK - the
big OEMs will be fine as well.

IMHO If you want a special system and Don't have the skills to build it
yourself then go to a specialist.

Personally I would source the components online and D-I-Y it myself
:-) (had to get a reference to D-I-Y in somewhere! :-)

Well obviously - same here - but then again I design microsystems and
software etc for a living so the prospect of buying an "off the shelf"
system is almost an affront to my dignity ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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"Left Nothing" wrote in message
If I were spending 2k on a PC, I would _only_ buy it from a major OEM.
The problem is, someone like Dell, IBM, HP, etc. aren't going to spend
the
time you'd think configuring systems. They bang stuff together for high
volume sales. Their main market is the sub-£1000 stuff, which is just a

See my other post! - It is in their interest to configure and test
their units to avoid costly returns and after sales support costs.
"Bang[ing] stuff" together is more akin to the 10k pa suppliers IME.

Before a new PC range is released, a major OEM will have used several
teams of people to test the product for several months! - Thats alot
of man hours! (Remember they also have access to new techology long
before it hits the shelves)


Yeah, but I'm getting out of their core market - they're not going to spend
much time on the systems that only 2% of their customers spec. The high-end
guys only sell these systems. At that level there are also very different
issues than at the low end. Low end is tried and trusted cheap technology
that's been around for a while. The manufacturers of high end kit won't be
shifting that much to the big OEM's. The smaller, specialist guys are
*only* buying the really fast cutting edge stuff though and may well shift
just as many units. Plus their guys tend to be a lot more "genuine" PC
builders. I've worked with a lot of big tech companies - the bigger they
get, the more money seeking "tech cattle" they attract!!


a

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:WhjQb.27066
Agreed! - Like everything in life, there will always be mistakes made
or things overlooked. The better OEMs will learn from them and make
sure they don't make the same mistakes again.

Oddly some don't seem to bother with some product range... perhaps they
have worked out the economics and decided that it is actually cheaper to
ship out replacements to 30% of their customers for a certain product in
their range.

I've found the same to be the case. We're a Compaq/HP shop and a lot of
their new kit seems to have really obvious problems - especially laptops
(and while I'm whinging about them - why the hell can't Compaq make a
battery that lasts more than 1 hour and doesn't pack it in after a year!?).

made as new technology is introduced. Firmware on things such as
optical drives, HDDs & modems are modified to increase reliability or
speed depending on the application of the units.

Hmm - next time you talk to a big OEM tell them you want a DVD drive
without RPC2 region restrictions.... ;-)

(Something small dealers will be able to deliver without too much
difficulty)

Exactly - smaller firms make it their business to impress and look after
their user base. Particularly if this user base might be coming back to buy
another very expensive system from them in a couple of years! Big OEM's
couldn't give a damn if they lost a small amount of customers.

Most corporate buyers using the channel, have acces to slightly better
info than Joe Public. More importantly though they often have more
incentive you use it to resolve your problem. Many OEMs just dont have
the customer commitment for non business users (or at lest finding the
one in five members of staff who do is the trickey bit)

Yep - all the importance is placed on the corporate business. All the call
centres make their staff learn the ropes on Joe Public first, then be
"promoted" to corp. support.


(Must admit if I were working in a call centre with Joe Public on the
phone all day with daft problems mostly of their own creation, I most
likely would loose the ability to be civil within the space of a
morning! - not a job I envy at all!)

I did it a long long time ago and it damn nearly killed me!! The experience
even today makes me never want to spend much time on the phone to anyone!

IMHO If you want a special system and Don't have the skills to build it
yourself then go to a specialist.

Personally I would source the components online and D-I-Y it myself
:-) (had to get a reference to D-I-Y in somewhere! :-)

Well obviously - same here - but then again I design microsystems and
software etc for a living so the prospect of buying an "off the shelf"
system is almost an affront to my dignity ;-)


I can put together a system myself no problem. Just don't have the
experience knowing what works well together and what will land nicely in a
case to make a good neat design!



a

al wrote:

I can put together a system myself no problem. Just don't have the
experience knowing what works well together and what will land nicely in a
case to make a good neat design!

Google groups is your friend here - shortlist your components then
search for the issues people are having with them.

Much of the extra performance will come from a bit of planning in the
setup. For example making sure that the windows swap file is on a
different physical drive to the rest of the OS. Partitioning large
drives to keep management of data simpler and also keeping the size of
partitions under the size of the backup medium available etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/