I would appreciate some advice on the best type of shower for my new shower
room which will be on the ground floor, with a bathroom above, the copper
hot water storage tank on the same floor as the bathroom but in the next
room along(bottom of tank is about 1.1 m above shower height), the cold
water tank is in the attic(bottom of tank is about 4.36 m above shower
height). The types of shower I am looking at are gravity shower, venturi
shower(use mains water supply) or a power shower.

Thanks

Martin

Martin wrote:
I would appreciate some advice on the best type of shower for my new
shower room which will be on the ground floor, with a bathroom above,
the copper hot water storage tank on the same floor as the bathroom
but in the next room along(bottom of tank is about 1.1 m above shower
height), the cold water tank is in the attic(bottom of tank is about
4.36 m above shower height). The types of shower I am looking at are
gravity shower, venturi shower(use mains water supply) or a power
shower.

Thanks

Martin

4.36 is quite a good head for a gravity shower..

"BillR" wrote in message
...
Martin wrote:
I would appreciate some advice on the best type of shower for my new
shower room which will be on the ground floor, with a bathroom above,
the copper hot water storage tank on the same floor as the bathroom
but in the next room along(bottom of tank is about 1.1 m above shower
height), the cold water tank is in the attic(bottom of tank is about
4.36 m above shower height). The types of shower I am looking at are
gravity shower, venturi shower(use mains water supply) or a power
shower.

Thanks

Martin

4.36 is quite a good head for a gravity shower..

Thanks for the reply. Is there a way of calculating the pressure that 4.36m
to base of CW tank will give as some shower heads specify low or high
pressure? I'm also doing my bathroom(directly above the shower room) at the
same time and will probably have a shower on the bath taps, that shower when
used at semi standing height in the bath would be about 2.26m below the base
of the cold water tank- it would be useful if I could calculate the pressure
for that also as I am looking at some ceramic valve taps(Hudson Reed) that
specify 0.5 bar minimum?

Martin
P.S. Are ceramic valves better than screw down valves on taps?

Martin wrote:
"BillR" wrote in message
...
Martin wrote:
I would appreciate some advice on the best type of shower for my new
shower room which will be on the ground floor, with a bathroom
above, the copper hot water storage tank on the same floor as the
bathroom
but in the next room along(bottom of tank is about 1.1 m above
shower height), the cold water tank is in the attic(bottom of tank
is about
4.36 m above shower height). The types of shower I am looking at are
gravity shower, venturi shower(use mains water supply) or a power
shower.

Thanks

Martin

4.36 is quite a good head for a gravity shower..

Thanks for the reply. Is there a way of calculating the pressure that
4.36m to base of CW tank will give as some shower heads specify low
or high pressure? I'm also doing my bathroom(directly above the
shower room) at the same time and will probably have a shower on the
bath taps, that shower when used at semi standing height in the bath
would be about 2.26m below the base of the cold water tank- it would
be useful if I could calculate the pressure for that also as I am
looking at some ceramic valve taps(Hudson Reed) that specify 0.5 bar
minimum?

Martin
P.S. Are ceramic valves better than screw down valves on taps?

The calculation is easy. 1 bar is approx 10m/30feet of water, so your 4+m
will give nearly 1/2 bar.
That may be adequate shower for many people but shower pumps usually provide
a minimum of 1 bar.
Ceramic valves are better but in my experience you get hopless flow, except
from bath taps, on gravity fed system in a first floor bathroom. I've got
the same type of monoblock tap in a downstairs toilet and in a 1st floor
on-suite. Downstairs its ok but upstairs its poor.

P.S. Are ceramic valves better than screw down valves on taps?

That depends. It is possible to get ceramic valves that pass as much water
as old compression taps. However, the fact is that the ceramic valves are
newer and are usually designed (in Italy or Germany) for modern mains
pressure supplies such as are typically installed throughout Europe. As
ancient gravity fed hot water systems are a largely UK peculiarity, modern
designs from countries without them tend not to be suitable.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
P.S. Are ceramic valves better than screw down valves on taps?

That depends. It is possible to get ceramic valves that pass as much water
as old compression taps. However, the fact is that the ceramic valves are
newer and are usually designed (in Italy or Germany) for modern mains
pressure supplies such as are typically installed throughout Europe. As
ancient gravity fed hot water systems are a largely UK peculiarity, modern
designs from countries without them tend not to be suitable.

Christian.
Thanks Christian. I am actually going to change my boiler at the same time
as I do my shower + bath rooms. I currently have a normal convential boiler
gravity system with hot and cold water tanks. Would it be worth changing the
boiler to a combi that gives mains pressure, are these less efficient than
condensing boilers? Alternatively I am considering adding a twin pump to
feed the bath on the 1st floor and the downstairs shower, what bar pressure
would this need to be 1-3?? Would the pressure be significantly reduced in
the shower(below the power of a gravity shower) if someone filled up the
bath at the same time as the downstairs shower was going?

Martin

"BillR" wrote in message
...
cut
The calculation is easy. 1 bar is approx 10m/30feet of water, so your 4+m
will give nearly 1/2 bar.
That may be adequate shower for many people but shower pumps usually
provide
a minimum of 1 bar.
Ceramic valves are better but in my experience you get hopless flow,
except
from bath taps, on gravity fed system in a first floor bathroom. I've got
the same type of monoblock tap in a downstairs toilet and in a 1st floor
on-suite. Downstairs its ok but upstairs its poor.

Thanks Bill. I've been looking at shower packs and separate heads/valves,
they don't seem to specify if they are ceramic valve, but they do specify if
suitable for high or low pressure(sometimes both), can I assume that the
high pressure only ones are ceramic and the low pressure aren't?

Martin

"Martin" wrote in message
...
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
P.S. Are ceramic valves better than screw down valves on taps?

That depends. It is possible to get ceramic valves that pass as much
water
as old compression taps. However, the fact is that the ceramic valves
are
newer and are usually designed (in Italy or Germany) for modern mains
pressure supplies such as are typically installed throughout Europe. As
ancient gravity fed hot water systems are a largely UK peculiarity,
modern
designs from countries without them tend not to be suitable.

Christian.

Thanks Christian. I am actually going to change my boiler at the same time
as I do my shower + bath rooms. I currently have a normal convential
boiler
gravity system with hot and cold water tanks. Would it be worth changing
the
boiler to a combi that gives mains pressure, are these less efficient than
condensing boilers?

You can get cpondesning combi's. Try the Glow Worm from:
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk It has a very acceptable flow rate.

Glow-Worm 38CXi Condensing Combi Boiler

• BTU's - 130,300

• kW - 38.2

• DHW Flow Rate - 15.5 L Per Min @ 35°C

• Height - 715mm

• Width - 450mm

• Depth - 334mm

• Sedbuk Rating A - 90.6%

• Built In Frost Protection

• Fully Modulating

PRICE INCLUDES DELVIERY

£934.13 Including VAT at 17.5%

_______________






---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 13/01/2004

Thanks Christian. I am actually going to change my boiler at the same time
as I do my shower + bath rooms. I currently have a normal convential
boiler
gravity system with hot and cold water tanks. Would it be worth changing
the
boiler to a combi that gives mains pressure, are these less efficient than
condensing boilers?

The combiness of a boiler is independent of the condensing nature. A
condensing boiler is more efficient than a non-condensing one as it exhausts
the flue gas at a much lower temperature. They are much more efficient even
if not run in condensing mode, so you don't need to worry about your
radiator sizes.

A combi boiler is normally more efficient than a storage based hot water
system, as there is no large store of hot water to cool off. The main
problem with combis are that they have a limited flow rate. However, this
flow is done at high pressure, making them excellent for showers.
Unfortunately, bath filling performance can be poor. Some "combis" aren't
really combis at all, but are integrated storage heatbank-boilers. These are
better than non-storage combis for baths, although the store is soon
exhausted.

The other alternative is to install a proper mains pressure hot water
system, such as a heat bank or unvented cylinder. This option will provide
the best solution, but will be considerably more expensive and take up much
more space, if you don't have a convenient loft space or suchlike to use up.

Any mains pressure solution depends on having sufficient static pressure and
maximum flow rate from your mains supply.

Would the pressure be significantly reduced in the shower(below the power
of a gravity shower) if someone filled up the bath at the same time as the
downstairs shower was going?

That would depend on the pump. A 1 bar would probably drop flow rate.
However, a 3 bar pump with large bore pipework might not be badly affected
at all, especially as the shower is downstairs. If it does become a problem,
choking off the bath taps (with their isolator valves) a little should
restore a bit of dynamic pressure for the shower.

Christian.

"Martin" wrote:

Hello Martin

M| I would appreciate some advice on the best type of shower
M| for my new shower room which will be on the ground floor,
M| with a bathroom above, the copper hot water storage tank on
M| the same floor as the bathroom but in the next room
M| along(bottom of tank is about 1.1 m above shower height),
M| the cold water tank is in the attic(bottom of tank is about
M| 4.36 m above shower height). The types of shower I am
M| looking at are gravity shower, venturi shower(use mains
M| water supply) or a power shower.

Gravity. It's the simplest and most effective method. Any other method
(electric, venturi, pumped) are usually only used to get around a lack
of head problem, or where piping is a /major/ hassle.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
cut
Would the pressure be significantly reduced in the shower(below the power
of a gravity shower) if someone filled up the bath at the same time as
the
downstairs shower was going?

That would depend on the pump. A 1 bar would probably drop flow rate.
However, a 3 bar pump with large bore pipework might not be badly affected
at all, especially as the shower is downstairs. If it does become a
problem,
choking off the bath taps (with their isolator valves) a little should
restore a bit of dynamic pressure for the shower.

Christian.
Thanks Christian. If I didn't have a pump I assume I would have to run new
pipes from the cold + hot water tanks to the gravity shower rather than
branch off from the pipes that currently fill the bath? So in a way having a
pump is an easier if more expensive solution? I am slightly worried about
the noise of a pump though, an old all in one power shower I used to
havewith the pump in the box on the wall made a hell of a racket. Thinking
about reducing the noise from the pump could I site it on the ground
floor(concrete) in the showerroom, that would make the pump about a couple
of meters below the bath which it would pump to, would that be an OK setup?

Martin

"Martin" wrote:

Hello Martin

That would depend on the pump. A 1 bar would probably drop
flow rate. However, a 3 bar pump with large bore pipework
might not be badly affected at all, especially as the
shower is downstairs. If it does become a

M| Thanks Christian. If I didn't have a pump I assume I would
M| have to run new pipes from the cold + hot water tanks to the
M| gravity shower rather than branch off from the pipes that
M| currently fill the bath? So in a way having a pump is an
M| easier if more expensive solution?

Yeah, but pumps also need a dedicated feed from both hot and cold.
Basically, they're plumbed exactly the same as for gravity, just with
a big noisy pump somewhere along the line. Because they shift more
water, they also require a Surrey or Essex flange on the tank rather
than a normal outlet. Don't go this route if you have adequate head
for a normal gravity!

M| in the showerroom, that would make the pump about a
M| couple of meters below the bath which it would pump to,
M| would that be an OK setup?

Yes, fine - as long as the distance between the bottom of the cold
tank and the height where the water comes out is more than the minimum
stated by the pump manufacturer to trigger the flow switches. If less,
or negative, get one specifically for negative head situations.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

Gravity. It's the simplest and most effective method. Any other method
(electric, venturi, pumped) are usually only used to get around a lack
of head problem, or where piping is a /major/ hassle.

Yes, but to get a reasonable head from a gravity system, you'd need a 10
storey house. OK, a gravity system can be made to get reasonable flow rate
to a bath. However, a decent shower needs pressure, not just flow rate.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Gravity. It's the simplest and most effective method. Any other method
(electric, venturi, pumped) are usually only used to get around a lack
of head problem, or where piping is a /major/ hassle.

Yes, but to get a reasonable head from a gravity system, you'd need a 10
storey house. OK, a gravity system can be made to get reasonable flow rate
to a bath. However, a decent shower needs pressure, not just flow rate.

Christian.
I am slightly confused about how the pressure will divided if I branch off
the 2 pipes from from a twin impeller pump(hot&cold), one branch of each
pipe going to a bath filler + the other to a shower in a room directly
below? Will the water flow equally out of the bath and the shower if I used
them at the same time, or would the one that applied less resistance get
more of the flow? If I was using the shower and someone turned on one or
both bath taps would that reduce the flow rate in the shower to an usable
point? I would be using a thermostatic shower valve so hopefully fluctuating
temperature would not be a problem.

Martin

"Simon Avery" wrote in message
...
"Martin" wrote:

Hello Martin

That would depend on the pump. A 1 bar would probably drop
flow rate. However, a 3 bar pump with large bore pipework
might not be badly affected at all, especially as the
shower is downstairs. If it does become a

M| Thanks Christian. If I didn't have a pump I assume I would
M| have to run new pipes from the cold + hot water tanks to the
M| gravity shower rather than branch off from the pipes that
M| currently fill the bath? So in a way having a pump is an
M| easier if more expensive solution?

Yeah, but pumps also need a dedicated feed from both hot and cold.
Basically, they're plumbed exactly the same as for gravity, just with
a big noisy pump somewhere along the line. Because they shift more
water, they also require a Surrey or Essex flange on the tank rather
than a normal outlet. Don't go this route if you have adequate head
for a normal gravity!

M| in the showerroom, that would make the pump about a
M| couple of meters below the bath which it would pump to,
M| would that be an OK setup?

Yes, fine - as long as the distance between the bottom of the cold
tank and the height where the water comes out is more than the minimum
stated by the pump manufacturer to trigger the flow switches. If less,
or negative, get one specifically for negative head situations.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Thanks for that Simon, the head is positive, what I was thinking of doing
was having the same pump connected to the bath and the shower downstairs,
but I wasn't sure what would happen if one or both the bath taps were turned
on at the same time as the downstairs shower was being used, would that put
strain on the pump? Would the water flow from the pump be equally divided
between the bath taps and the shower or would one get more flow depending on
the height of the outlet or resistance of the valve on the taps or shower?
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I'm a plumbing noob....

Cheers!

Martin

"Martin" wrote:

Hello Martin

M| Thanks for that Simon, the head is positive, what I was

They don't usually need much. I think the figure for mine was 0.3m,
about a foot, but it varies per pump. Worth checking.

M| thinking of doing was having the same pump connected to the
M| bath and the shower downstairs, but I wasn't sure what would
M| happen if one or both the bath taps were turned on at the
M| same time as the downstairs shower was being used, would
M| that put strain on the pump? Would the water flow from the
M| pump be equally divided between the bath taps and the shower
M| or would one get more flow depending on the height of the
M| outlet or resistance of the valve on the taps or
M| shower?

That's fine. Obviously flow will reduce at one point if another tap is
letting water out. It won't hurt the pump at all. As for flow -
depends. Water will take path of least resistance. I think it's pretty
hard to estimate with any accuracy what it'll actually be like.

Pumps are often used for more than one outlet - like some flats where
the whole house is pumped from a central location. Not sure what
happens in that situation WRT Bylaw 30 and not being allowed to
connect pumps to the rising main, though.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/