On 12 Jan 2004 09:06:24 GMT, wrote:

That's about what they cost ready made, UPSs have become incredibly
cheap now.

True but with an up time measured in minutes delivering the 150W or so
that a CH system takes... I've thought about getting a couple of big
SLA's for my APC UPS to extend the uptime but the 700VA rating isn't
really enough for my current load so I really need a bigger or another
UPS anyway...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:30:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Thats probably what I'd go for, preferably able to run on 28sec
heating oil as we have a good supply of that. Cheaper than red diesel
as well...

What sort of engine would that be? A multi fuel engine from a fighting
vehicle may be a bit large, an old BMC engine set to run on tvo or
maybe a small gas turbine?

AJH

In article ,
wrote:
If I add a 'permanent' charger then effectively I've got an UPS. With
a capacity of approx 0.5 kwh. I don't know what you'd expect to pay
for one ready made, but my costs are *well* under 50 quid so far,
given that most of the bits are either secondhand or new via Ebay.

That's about what they cost ready made, UPSs have become incredibly
cheap now.

With that sort of capacity? I find that hard to believe - the battery
alone would cost much more than that trade price.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article , Wanderer
writes
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:30:56 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:07:45 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

Yes, but I live in Central London. If I lived where you do, I'd
probably have a full blown standby diesel genny by now ...

It was high up the list when we moved in. A couple of the poles
supporting our (we are the only people on it) 1/2mile single phase
11kV spur are at rather odd angles

Have you actually bothered to give them a bell and tell them a couple of
poles are leaning? Better to tell them and have them come and push the
poles up in decent weather than wait until a storm brings them even
further over and possibly cuts off your leccy supply.

No!, you can't do that with today's accountant driven supply industry.
Preventative maintenance and genuine customer care?!. Leave it out, its
far cheaper, whoops economic, to wait for the things to collapse rather
then have that money wasted before they do.

Perish the thought!.....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Andrew Heggie
writes
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:30:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Thats probably what I'd go for, preferably able to run on 28sec
heating oil as we have a good supply of that. Cheaper than red diesel
as well...

What sort of engine would that be? A multi fuel engine from a fighting
vehicle may be a bit large, an old BMC engine set to run on tvo or
maybe a small gas turbine?

AJH


This lot had some decent inexpensive ones when I last looked.
Unfortunately they don't update their website as often as they might....

http://www.betagenerators.com/html/used_gensets.html
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Owain owain41276@sti
rlingcity.co.uk writes
"Huge" wrote
| The last time we were off for 96 hours.
| 24/7 kept telling us ...

Does their company name constitute false advertising?

Owain



23.5/7 more like it from last years experiences.

That's what U do rename it when a company cocks up on a grand scale.
Remember Winscale the nuclear station, now called Sellafield.

Still what's EDF get rounded of to?....
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On 12 Jan 2004 01:28:05 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I bought one from Maplin a while back when it was on special
offer (£12 IIRC). I compared it with a true power meter,
and there are some load types for which it wasn't very accurate.
Well I wouldn't expect a precision instrument for £20. B-)
I have an "Econometer" bought about 10 years ago which is pretty good
for loads above 100W or so but anything less is is decidely doubtful.
What is the minimum power this one says it'll measure?

I don't think it says. The display goes down to 0.00W.
Just tried a few wall-wart PSU's in it with no load on them.
Two registered 7W (but are clearly nothing like that), and
a third registered 0W.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:13:46 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:


This lot had some decent inexpensive ones when I last looked.
Unfortunately they don't update their website as often as they might....

Ah, but I doubt any of them are designed to run on 28 sec heating oil
as Dave L stipulated. I have a couple that do but they produce 110V @
400Hz, itsy bit noisy too.

AJH

In article ,
Andrew Heggie wrote:
Thats probably what I'd go for, preferably able to run on 28sec
heating oil as we have a good supply of that. Cheaper than red diesel
as well...

What sort of engine would that be? A multi fuel engine from a fighting
vehicle may be a bit large, an old BMC engine set to run on tvo or
maybe a small gas turbine?

Isn't 28 sec very similar to TVO? So an old tractor engine?

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:04:36 -0000, Set Square wrote:

No, I got it from Machine Mart. It's made by brennenstuhl - and the
model is PM230.

£25.00ish inc VAT and delivery. Tempted but there is a dearth of any
real information on the net including the Brennenstuhl site. B-(

Any chance of posting up a spec sheet for it? Always assuming that
information is supplied with the unit... Nearest Machine Mart is
Carlisle (50+ miles RT) and we rarely go to Carlisle.

You can see brief details at
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=010916213

The spec printed in the instruction leaflet says:
Operating Voltage: 230V~ 50Hz
Operating Current: Max 13A
Lowest measurable current: 0.02A
Voltage Display (VAC): 190v - 276v
Current display (amps): 0.00A - 16.00A
Wattage display (watts): 0W - 4416W
KWh display (in kWh): 0.00 - 999.99 kWh
Frequency display (Hz): 40 - 70 Hz
Power factor display: 0.20 - 1.00
ACCURACY:
Voltage: +/- 3% of measured value
Current: +/- 3% of measured value +/- 0.04A
Wattage: +/- 5% of measured value +/- 10W
kWh: +/- 5% of measured value +/- 0.1 kWh

It's clearly not a high precision instrument - but is nontheless useful in
getting an indication of consumption when, for example, speccing an
emergency genny.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:53:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:


Isn't 28 sec very similar to TVO? So an old tractor engine?

Yes I think so, although I think tvo was a bit nearer to petrol than
ornery paraffin. Esso were the last to produce it and now the vintage
enthusiasts trade various recipes for a substitute. BMC used to make a
tvo version of the A series (I think) that was put in Nuffield
tractors as a tvo engine, grey ferguson tractors had a tvo version
also. Both still up in the 30hp class, I wonder if those old 6hp
hopper cooled Listers ran on it?

AJH

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:31 -0000, Set Square wrote:

You can see brief details at
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=010916213

Yes I found that and the makers site with not a lot more information.
Indeed the MachineMart site and another resellers site where almost
verbatim the makers page...

Lowest measurable current: 0.02A

I make that 4.6VA, this is somewhat better than what I have. If you
(or Mr Gabriel) have a 15w bulb does it read 15W +/- ballpark?

Does more techy things than mine as well, like current, volts and
frequency. I think I want one, note want not need... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:08:15 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

Thats probably what I'd go for, preferably able to run on 28sec
heating oil as we have a good supply of that. Cheaper than red
diesel as well...

What sort of engine would that be?

Donno. I'm not an engine man, though I see from your other postings in
this thread you probably are. I'd gained an impression in the past
that a diesel (35sec) would run on 28sec with little if any
adjustment. Though I guess "run" might need to be clarified... B-)

28sec heating oil is pretty much the same as parafin and jet A1. So a
little more volatile than 35sec diesel, gas oil etc. If you inject not
as much and a bit later than you would 35sec would it not do the job?

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:31 -0000, Set Square wrote:

You can see brief details at
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=010916213

Yes I found that and the makers site with not a lot more information.
Indeed the MachineMart site and another resellers site where almost
verbatim the makers page...

Lowest measurable current: 0.02A

I make that 4.6VA, this is somewhat better than what I have. If you
(or Mr Gabriel) have a 15w bulb does it read 15W +/- ballpark?

Does more techy things than mine as well, like current, volts and
frequency. I think I want one, note want not need... B-)


Just tried it by taking a 15w bulb out of my Goblin Teasmade (blimey, that
dates me!) and putting it in my lead lamp. It reads as follows:
Voltage: 237/238/239 (fluctuating)
Current: 0.07A
Power Factor: 1.00
Watts: 16.66/16.75 (fluctuating)

With a 60 watt bulb, it read 59 watts.

All this makes me feel that it's resonably believable - and that the
tolerances stated in the spec are rather conservative.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:07:35 -0000, "Set Square" wrote:

All this makes me feel that it's resonably believable - and that the
tolerances stated in the spec are rather conservative.

Ah, but bulbs are resistive loads. Know a fellow who'd tested a few, and
found that the cheaper ones didn't do too well with inductive and
capacitive loads.

That said, it should be fine for getting the numbers in the right
ballpark.


Thomas Prufer

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:07:35 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

All this makes me feel that it's resonably believable - and that the
tolerances stated in the spec are rather conservative.

Ah, but bulbs are resistive loads. Know a fellow who'd tested a few,
and found that the cheaper ones didn't do too well with inductive and
capacitive loads.

That said, it should be fine for getting the numbers in the right
ballpark.


Thomas Prufer


Well, with the inductive loads on which I've tried it (e.g. central heating
pump) the displayed numbers stack up - in that displayed watts = displayed
volts x displayed amps x displayed power factor. I know that doesn't prove
that its *right* - but it's got a fighting chance!

The fact that it displays these parameters separately means that you can
also work out VA (ignoring power factor) which is probably more relevant
than watts when considering the use of gennys or inverters for emergency
standby use.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:36:12 -0000, "Set Square" wrote:

The fact that it displays these parameters separately means that you can
also work out VA (ignoring power factor) which is probably more relevant
than watts when considering the use of gennys or inverters for emergency
standby use.

And VA would be broadly accurate, I'd expect -- phase is the trickiest
of the three to measure cheaply.

Thomas Prufer

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:21:53 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

28sec heating oil is pretty much the same as parafin and jet A1. So a
little more volatile than 35sec diesel, gas oil etc. If you inject not
as much and a bit later than you would 35sec would it not do the job?

I posed the question on uk.rec.engines.stationay, few responses but a
bit of consensus. The heating oil (28 sec) will run in a diesel but
some extra lubrication will be required for the injection pump. I
think because its cetane rating is wrong it will not ignite as well,
one poster had experience of it tarring up an engine.

Your suggestion of derating could work well, especially if it meant
the injector could be optimised, I think you would have to inject at
the current timing and maybe shorten the time to injection cut off.

If I were planning a standby generator I would stick with petrol if I
thought it would run 40hrs a year, propane if greater and diesel if
full time (in which case there would be no need of the domestic
heating system).

AJH

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:36:12 -0000, Set Square wrote:

Well, with the inductive loads on which I've tried it (e.g. central
heating pump) the displayed numbers stack up - in that displayed
watts = displayed volts x displayed amps x displayed power factor.

Volts and amps are easy to measure fairly accurately the phase angle
not so easy but once you have that the rest is just maths.

Nice to know that the device does produce reasonable answers, thanks
for running the tests. Pity you're not on commission...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Liquorice wrote:


Nice to know that the device does produce reasonable answers, thanks
for running the tests. Pity you're not on commission...


I think we all benefit from sharing experiences of devices we have bought. I
have certainly benefitted from other people's input on other devices - and
am quite happy to do experiments.

Just to show that I'm not biassed, I'm not claiming that this volt/amp/meter
is the best thing since sliced bread - but simply that it does a reasonable
job and seems to be reasonable value for £20.

I did have one minor problem with it on the first day - when it locked up
and wouldn't respond to any of the buttons. The reset button also didn't
work, and I had to take the batteries out for several minutes and start
again. It has been ok ever since.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:50:08 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

I posed the question on uk.rec.engines.stationay, few responses but
a bit of consensus. The heating oil (28 sec) will run in a diesel
but some extra lubrication will be required for the injection pump.
I think because its cetane rating is wrong it will not ignite as
well, one poster had experience of it tarring up an engine.

Well I don't mind adding a bit of petrol and a dash of 2 stroke oil,
though it would be nice if it ran "neat". I can appreciate that
heating oil is not intended to be an internal combustion engine fuel
so one should expect the odd snag.

Your suggestion of derating could work well, especially if it meant
the injector could be optimised, I think you would have to inject at
the current timing and maybe shorten the time to injection cut off.

All I know about diesels is the basic school boy stuff. Are those two
tweaks easy, the timing I guess is but the second?

If I were planning a standby generator I would stick with petrol if
I thought it would run 40hrs a year,

I agree that petrol for small infrequent use gensets is probably best
but it erks me to pay around 50p/litre for Duty on road petrol when I
have a couple of thousand litres of 28sec at less than 20p/l
available... I don't think there is an easyly available petrol version
of red diesel, I'd like some for the strimmer and lawn mower anyway...

propane if greater and diesel if full time (in which case there
would be no need of the domestic heating system).

Propane could be an option, at the moment we cook on electric and I
hate it. So at some point a couple of 47kg propane cylinders will
appear along with at least a gas hob.

CHP would be nice but the economics don't quite add up the right way,
not to mention the non stop noise.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:05:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

All I know about diesels is the basic school boy stuff. Are those two
tweaks easy, the timing I guess is but the second?

Neither are trivial.

propane if greater and diesel if full time (in which case there
would be no need of the domestic heating system).

Propane could be an option, at the moment we cook on electric and I
hate it. So at some point a couple of 47kg propane cylinders will
appear along with at least a gas hob.

Many small gensets can be converted ~GBP100. Propane has a number of
advantages, the bottles need to be kept warm as you will be using a
vapour take off.

AJH

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:05:13 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

All I know about diesels is the basic school boy stuff. Are those
two tweaks easy, the timing I guess is but the second?

Neither are trivial.

Bang (or not..) goes that idea then.

Many small gensets can be converted ~GBP100. Propane has a number of
advantages, the bottles need to be kept warm as you will be using a
vapour take off.

Butane (blue) has a problem in the cold. Propane (orange) doesn't
suffer the same, at least not at normal UK winter temperatures. I
can't imagine that people with propane CH or cooking have no heating
or cooking when it gets cold. The tanks/cylinders are frequently
outside, unprotected. I've seen propane bottles with an inch or more
of frost around them, handy for indicating how much gas is left. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:18:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Butane (blue) has a problem in the cold. Propane (orange) doesn't
suffer the same, at least not at normal UK winter temperatures.

It does if the required rate of vapourisation exceeds the heat
transfer from the air through the bottle (including insulating ice
layer), the latent heat of vapourisation simply cools the remaining
propane below its boiling point. This is of course highly dependant on
the size of the engine, if you are running at 2kW(e) then the heat
draw will be around 10kW(t), nearly 2ltres/hour and comparable to a
couple of biggish hobs. Increase this to 20kW(e) and I am fairly
confident you will need a liquid feed and a heated vapouriser.

AJH

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:18:04 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

It does if the required rate of vapourisation exceeds the heat
transfer from the air through the bottle (including insulating ice
layer), the latent heat of vapourisation simply cools the remaining
propane below its boiling point.

-44C blooming cold... Even on a very cold night for the UK say -10C
you still have 30+C of temperature gradient to push heat into the
cylinder.

This is of course highly dependant on the size of the engine,

Very much so but I think for the sizes we are talking, max of 5kVA
genset, running at an average of 20% capacity I doubt it is of
practical concern.

I choose 1kVA as an average with care, that is pretty much what our
daily average load is. Though that includes when we are all asleep, so
I guess the "active" average load might be as much as 2kVA.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:47:55 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


-44C blooming cold... Even on a very cold night for the UK say -10C
you still have 30+C of temperature gradient to push heat into the
cylinder.

My daughter tells me it is -22C at the moment :-)

This is of course highly dependant on the size of the engine,

Very much so but I think for the sizes we are talking, max of 5kVA
genset, running at an average of 20% capacity I doubt it is of
practical concern.

I agree, which is why I posted it is about the same as a couple of
hobs full on, bear in mine it becomes more of a problem as the bottles
empty.

Slightly related is that it is, allegedly, known for lpg equipped
vehicles with no antifreeze in the coolant to freeze their vapourisers
before the thermostat opens, bringing the vehicle to a halt.

I choose 1kVA as an average with care, that is pretty much what our
daily average load is. Though that includes when we are all asleep, so
I guess the "active" average load might be as much as 2kVA.

This accords with what I found with our genset, though this is not
domestic use.

I think you are mixing the terminology a bit here, OK the genset needs
to know the kVA, because if either current or Volts exceed the rating
of the machine something gives (after allowing a safety margin) but it
is the kW draw that determines the heat load of the engine ( and
indeed whether it stalls). So you may have a 10kVA genset capable of
supplying 7.5kW(e) continuously but working on average at 2kW(e). In
point of fact this is what makes permanent magnet alternators and
inverters so interesting to me for home use (once demand shifts from
90%heat:10%electricty to something nearer 70%heat:30% electricity)

AJH

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:03:56 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

My daughter tells me it is -22C at the moment :-)

But not in the UK, Canada?

I agree, which is why I posted it is about the same as a couple of
hobs full on, bear in mine it becomes more of a problem as the
bottles empty.

Not quite sure how the automatic change over valves function, I'd
assume on cylinder pressure when it gets "too low" the valve switches
to the other cylinder. I doubt they switch back though, which would
allow you to toggle between cylinders. As one became too cold to
vapourise the valve would switch to the other, allowing the cold one
to warm up. When the second got too cold the valve would switch back
to, the now warm, orginal cylinder. B-)

I think you are mixing the terminology a bit here,

Just a bit... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:04:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:03:56 +0000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

My daughter tells me it is -22C at the moment :-)

But not in the UK, Canada?

Boston Mass.

Not quite sure how the automatic change over valves function,

OK I had not considered this as a possibility, in fact I did not know
such things existed.

AJH

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:04:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

I doubt they switch back though, which would
allow you to toggle between cylinders. As one became too cold to
vapourise the valve would switch to the other, allowing the cold one
to warm up. When the second got too cold the valve would switch back
to, the now warm, orginal cylinder. B-)

AFAIK they don't switch back.

One method (I've seen it both in books, and on a building site feeding
big heaters) is to run several tanks parallel. This reduces the amount
of vapor each tank has to produce, while the surface increases.

Thomas Prufer