Hi,

some may recall my posting about a C/H problem where my Jaguar boiler
cut out intermittently, and never when an engineer was looking at it.

On 5 occasions over the 6 months, 3 different heating engineers looked
at it, and none could/would diagnose the cause.

It was definitely an overheating problem, with F1 error code meaning the
thermostat next to the heat exchanger needed resetting, or F3 error code
simply meaning an overheat of something, and where it would fire up
without attention, once the temp had fallen.

I discussed faulty pump with each of them, and none were sure saying
that they didnt want to spend my money when it could be something else.

Over time, and listening to them, and to the boiler, (including a
screwdriver to the pump and my ear), I recognised that the sequence was:

thermostat demands heat, boiler fires up, pump runs for a period from a
few seconds, to a few hours, pump stops, temp rises, thermostat cuts the
gas.

I was therefore reasonably certain that either the pump was faulty, or
something was stopping power getting to the pump.

Eventually, I insisted that one of the engineers fitted a new pump to
test my theory, and it seems to have worked a treat.

What a job I had to get one of them to do it! I had to insist that it be
done, and that I wouldn't be upset if it didnt work.

I guess that I am probably luck to have such honest engineers, who dont
want to spend my money unnecessarily, but it has been a frustrating 6
months with sporadic, or no heat.

Why am I writing this?? Well, I suppose it is to say that there seems to
be no real way of diagnosing the cause of a problem with certainty, and
it may be necessary to spend money on a number of possible cures in
order of reasonableness, in order to exclude particular things.

--
Richard Faulkner

Sir

Thank you for your story, I just sent it to my boss. I hope he understangs the analagy, to todays reason for chewing my b***s.

Rick


On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:42:58 +0000, Richard Faulkner wrote:
Hi,

some may recall my posting about a C/H problem where my Jaguar boiler
cut out intermittently, and never when an engineer was looking at it.

On 5 occasions over the 6 months, 3 different heating engineers looked
at it, and none could/would diagnose the cause.

It was definitely an overheating problem, with F1 error code meaning the
thermostat next to the heat exchanger needed resetting, or F3 error code
simply meaning an overheat of something, and where it would fire up
without attention, once the temp had fallen.

I discussed faulty pump with each of them, and none were sure saying
that they didnt want to spend my money when it could be something else.

Over time, and listening to them, and to the boiler, (including a
screwdriver to the pump and my ear), I recognised that the sequence was:

thermostat demands heat, boiler fires up, pump runs for a period from a
few seconds, to a few hours, pump stops, temp rises, thermostat cuts the
gas.

I was therefore reasonably certain that either the pump was faulty, or
something was stopping power getting to the pump.

Eventually, I insisted that one of the engineers fitted a new pump to
test my theory, and it seems to have worked a treat.

What a job I had to get one of them to do it! I had to insist that it be
done, and that I wouldn't be upset if it didnt work.

I guess that I am probably luck to have such honest engineers, who dont
want to spend my money unnecessarily, but it has been a frustrating 6
months with sporadic, or no heat.

Why am I writing this?? Well, I suppose it is to say that there seems to
be no real way of diagnosing the cause of a problem with certainty, and
it may be necessary to spend money on a number of possible cures in
order of reasonableness, in order to exclude particular things.

--
Richard Faulkner

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:42:58 +0000, Richard Faulkner
wrote:




Eventually, I insisted that one of the engineers fitted a new pump to
test my theory, and it seems to have worked a treat.

What a job I had to get one of them to do it! I had to insist that it be
done, and that I wouldn't be upset if it didnt work.

I guess that I am probably luck to have such honest engineers, who dont
want to spend my money unnecessarily, but it has been a frustrating 6
months with sporadic, or no heat.

Why am I writing this?? Well, I suppose it is to say that there seems to
be no real way of diagnosing the cause of a problem with certainty, and
it may be necessary to spend money on a number of possible cures in
order of reasonableness, in order to exclude particular things.

You are up against the problem that most of the GBP are totally unable
to grasp this point, and also expect everything to have an infinite
life. Tradesmen rapidly learn this.

I have a similar problem trying to get my vehicle maintained. The
industry is geared to customers who won't accept that something needs
replaced until it physically falls off, not even then if the vehicle
can function in some manner without it.
I OTOH want anything which is not certain to last to the next service,
replaced.

--
Niall

In message , Niall
wrote

I have a similar problem trying to get my vehicle maintained. The
industry is geared to customers who won't accept that something needs
replaced until it physically falls off, not even then if the vehicle
can function in some manner without it.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

For safety reasons it may be prudent to replacing brake parts etc.at the
recommended service intervals but replacing components just for the sake
of it may not make your car more reliable.

I OTOH want anything which is not certain to last to the next service,
replaced.


Most people expect the engine in a modern car to last until it goes to
the scrap yard - but it may fail before the next service! Is it better
to change it, just in case?
--
Alan

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:42:58 +0000, Richard Faulkner wrote:



Why am I writing this?? Well, I suppose it is to say that there seems to
be no real way of diagnosing the cause of a problem with certainty, and
it may be necessary to spend money on a number of possible cures in
order of reasonableness, in order to exclude particular things.

I suppose the order in which things are tried to resolve an intermittent
problem is partly 'reasonableness' = likelihood of being the culprit.
partly the cost of the item and partly known track record.

For over heating this would normally be either a flow related problem or
a faulty sensor.

So if the temperatures of the boiler seem reasonable then
pumps, bypasses (or lack), All TRVs+ warmth are reasonable.

Given that over heat sensors are cheap they are probably changed as the
first or second item on the list.

A pump is simple to change and is still much less costly that a call out so
that would be the next up. Although an intermittent pump failure is not
common IME. (Open circuit, Earth fault, Total erosion, or duff capacitor
would be the usual suspect).

The PCB would be towards the end of the list (unless a Suprima).

For instance if someone reported delayed or no CH after DHW on a Puma then
you might aswell go and get a diverter valve actuator on your way there.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:40:46 +0000, Alan
wrote:

In message , Niall
wrote

I have a similar problem trying to get my vehicle maintained. The
industry is geared to customers who won't accept that something needs
replaced until it physically falls off, not even then if the vehicle
can function in some manner without it.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

For safety reasons it may be prudent to replacing brake parts etc.at the
recommended service intervals but replacing components just for the sake
of it may not make your car more reliable.

Replacing things that are broken but can still be used, OTOH, will,
and usually makes the driving experience rather more pleasant.

I OTOH want anything which is not certain to last to the next service,
replaced.


Most people expect the engine in a modern car to last until it goes to
the scrap yard - but it may fail before the next service! Is it better
to change it, just in case?

It may, but if it's not smoking or displaying other symptoms it
probably won't. OTOH, if the brake pads are not down to the metal but
clearly don't have another 6000 miles in them, I suppose you'ld rather
the garage left them until you've had the use out of the very last bit
of friction material then go through the whole fandango of booking it
in, getting back from the garage, not having the vehicle, getting back
to the garage, running the risk that there wasn't as much left as you
thought and wrecking a disc...

--
Niall

In message , Niall
wrote
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:40:46 +0000, Alan
wrote:

In message , Niall
wrote

I have a similar problem trying to get my vehicle maintained. The
industry is geared to customers who won't accept that something needs
replaced until it physically falls off, not even then if the vehicle
can function in some manner without it.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

For safety reasons it may be prudent to replacing brake parts etc.at the
recommended service intervals but replacing components just for the sake
of it may not make your car more reliable.


Replacing things that are broken but can still be used, OTOH, will,
and usually makes the driving experience rather more pleasant.

But you was writing about replacing parts that were not broken.

if the brake pads are not down to the metal but
clearly don't have another 6000 miles in them, I suppose you'ld rather
the garage left them until you've had the use out of the very last bit
of friction material then go through the whole fandango of booking it
in, getting back from the garage, not having the vehicle, getting back
to the garage, running the risk that there wasn't as much left as you
thought and wrecking a disc..

If it's obvious that the pads are not going to last you could ask the
garage to change them. I know of no garage that would turn down money if
offered

On the other hand, do you trust all garages to tell you the truth when
they are short of work? During an MOT one garage told me that the brake
disks although okay for the MOT were getting thin and they needed
replacement soon. They offered to do the work in the following weeks.
Ten and a half years later, and ten MOTs, the car was scrapped with the
same (original) disks!

I've always considered pad and disk replacement an easy diy job.
--
Alan

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 23:36:32 +0000, Alan
wrote:

In message , Niall
wrote
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:40:46 +0000, Alan
wrote:

In message , Niall
wrote

I have a similar problem trying to get my vehicle maintained. The
industry is geared to customers who won't accept that something needs
replaced until it physically falls off, not even then if the vehicle
can function in some manner without it.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

For safety reasons it may be prudent to replacing brake parts etc.at the
recommended service intervals but replacing components just for the sake
of it may not make your car more reliable.


Replacing things that are broken but can still be used, OTOH, will,
and usually makes the driving experience rather more pleasant.

But you was writing about replacing parts that were not broken.

Not as I read what I wrote.

if the brake pads are not down to the metal but
clearly don't have another 6000 miles in them, I suppose you'ld rather
the garage left them until you've had the use out of the very last bit
of friction material then go through the whole fandango of booking it
in, getting back from the garage, not having the vehicle, getting back
to the garage, running the risk that there wasn't as much left as you
thought and wrecking a disc..

If it's obvious that the pads are not going to last you could ask the
garage to change them. I know of no garage that would turn down money if
offered

The point here is I pay them to service the vehicle at the
manufacturer's intervals on the basis that for instance I do not have
to monitor the condition of the brake pads in the interim.

On the other hand, do you trust all garages to tell you the truth when
they are short of work? During an MOT one garage told me that the brake
disks although okay for the MOT were getting thin and they needed
replacement soon. They offered to do the work in the following weeks.
Ten and a half years later, and ten MOTs, the car was scrapped with the
same (original) disks!

If they are going to do that they have to balance the profit they will
make doing it against the future profits they will lose if I find out
they did it. It being fairly obvious that I know my way round a
vehicle.

I've always considered pad and disk replacement an easy diy job.

I did car mechanics myself when I had to. I no longer have to, and
would rather do what I do to earn the money to pay someone to work on
my van. I don't have a garage big enough to take the vehicle let alone
have room to work on it, and being in the west of Scotland it
invariably starts to rain as soon as I start to work outside.
The last time I had a set of discs replaced the mechanic certainly
didn't think it was easy. I saw the remains of the old discs, and I
believe him.

--
Niall

In article ,
Niall wrote:
I OTOH want anything which is not certain to last to the next service,
replaced.

Go for a BMW, then. They're very good at recommending replacements that
aren't needed. ;-)

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Niall wrote:
The last time I had a set of discs replaced the mechanic certainly
didn't think it was easy. I saw the remains of the old discs, and I
believe him.

Yes - on some cars they weld themselves on.

--
*Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:06:05 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Niall wrote:
I OTOH want anything which is not certain to last to the next service,
replaced.

Go for a BMW, then. They're very good at recommending replacements that
aren't needed. ;-)

They don't make vans.

--
Niall

In article ,
Niall wrote:
Go for a BMW, then. They're very good at recommending replacements that
aren't needed. ;-)

They don't make vans.

Some would disagree.

--
*According to my calculations, the problem doesn't exist.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn