Harry Bloomfield has brought this to us :
I am just wondering if there might be any gotyas...

Long ago I bought a Makita drill kit with 3x 18v 1.3Ah NiCad battery packs
and its charger. The charger is marked 7.2 to 18v, NiCad or NiMh. two of the
packs now need replacing, but I am thinking to recell them as a cheaper
option.

Is there any reason not to directly replace the 15x 1.3aH NiCad cells in the
packs, with 15x 6Ah NiMh? Do the battery packs in some way identify
themselves to the charger please?

My 16 ordered Ni-MH cells (needed 15), with solder tags - arrived
yesterday morning, so I set to it in the afternoon to rebuild my first
battery pack...

It took me some three hours to do and is now working better than ever.
From what I could see, the pack included a series fuse and a pack
temperature sensor. Originally it had been a 1.3amp/hour 18v Nicad
pack, it is now what was described as 6amp/hour, but more likely
3amp/hour.

The supplied cells on arrival were down at just over 1.0v each, so
flat. Once built they rapidly took on a full charge, then a second
attempt at charging caused a complaint from the charger that they were
too warm, but fine after being allowed to cool.

I have made a little us of the drill and all seems absolutely fine. The
terminal voltage was 20.2v, so I assume all good. Having sucessfully
rebuilt one on the cheap, I will be doing a second useless pack. It
cost me £17 for the 16 cells.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 19:51:24 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Harry Bloomfield has brought this to us :
I am just wondering if there might be any gotyas...

Long ago I bought a Makita drill kit with 3x 18v 1.3Ah NiCad battery packs
and its charger. The charger is marked 7.2 to 18v, NiCad or NiMh. two of the
packs now need replacing, but I am thinking to recell them as a cheaper
option.

Is there any reason not to directly replace the 15x 1.3aH NiCad cells in the
packs, with 15x 6Ah NiMh? Do the battery packs in some way identify
themselves to the charger please?

My 16 ordered Ni-MH cells (needed 15), with solder tags - arrived
yesterday morning, so I set to it in the afternoon to rebuild my first
battery pack...

It took me some three hours to do and is now working better than ever.
From what I could see, the pack included a series fuse and a pack
temperature sensor. Originally it had been a 1.3amp/hour 18v Nicad
pack, it is now what was described as 6amp/hour, but more likely
3amp/hour.

The supplied cells on arrival were down at just over 1.0v each, so
flat. Once built they rapidly took on a full charge, then a second
attempt at charging caused a complaint from the charger that they were
too warm, but fine after being allowed to cool.

I have made a little us of the drill and all seems absolutely fine. The
terminal voltage was 20.2v, so I assume all good. Having sucessfully
rebuilt one on the cheap, I will be doing a second useless pack. It
cost me £17 for the 16 cells.

Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Harry Bloomfield wrote:


The supplied cells on arrival were down at just over 1.0v each, so
flat.

NiMh are fine if you are using them regularly but have a much higher self
discharge rate then NiCd
how regularly do you use that drill ?

-

This used to be true, but I don't think its like that now as long as you do
not buy the very highest capacity for the size types in my experience.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Mark" wrote in message ...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:


The supplied cells on arrival were down at just over 1.0v each, so
flat.

NiMh are fine if you are using them regularly but have a much higher self
discharge rate then NiCd
how regularly do you use that drill ?

-

PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

They took 25 days to be delivered from HK at a cost of 2x £8.42. I
intend seeing how these pan out and probably order another set to
rebuild a second pack. The tags were strip type, quite narrow, each
sleaved with shrink sleaving and easy to solder. I had to fold some, so
as to exit in the correct direction to match the build.

To reply to the other question - my drill gets used infrequently, but I
usually make quite heavy use of it when I do. Maybe once a fortnight.
The voltage has not dipped, since I initially charged them 3 days ago.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

They took 25 days to be delivered from HK at a cost of 2x £8.42. I
intend seeing how these pan out and probably order another set to
rebuild a second pack. The tags were strip type, quite narrow, each
sleaved with shrink sleaving and easy to solder. I had to fold some, so
as to exit in the correct direction to match the build.

To reply to the other question - my drill gets used infrequently, but I
usually make quite heavy use of it when I do. Maybe once a fortnight.
The voltage has not dipped, since I initially charged them 3 days ago.

If they really are as good as you say, remarkable value.

Does the drill have as much torque as with the originals when they were
good? This is often the giveaway with replacements - they can't deliver
the same peak current.

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) brought next idea :
If they really are as good as you say, remarkable value.

Does the drill have as much torque as with the originals when they were
good? This is often the giveaway with replacements - they can't deliver
the same peak current.

Difficult to be sure, but I would say yes. I cannot stop the drill with
my hand, without risk of a friction burn when it runs at full speed.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Harry wrote:

PeterC pretended :

Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556


They took 25 days to be delivered from HK at a cost of 2x £8.42. I
intend seeing how these pan out and probably order another set to
rebuild a second pack. The tags were strip type, quite narrow, each
sleaved with shrink sleaving and easy to solder. I had to fold some, so
as to exit in the correct direction to match the build.


To reply to the other question - my drill gets used infrequently, but I
usually make quite heavy use of it when I do. Maybe once a fortnight.
The voltage has not dipped, since I initially charged them 3 days ago.

If they really are as good as you say, remarkable value.

Does the drill have as much torque as with the originals when they were
good? This is often the giveaway with replacements - they can't deliver
the same peak current.



Yes, I've found this also replacing Nicad with NiMH.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 16:48:30 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

They took 25 days to be delivered from HK at a cost of 2x £8.42. I
intend seeing how these pan out and probably order another set to
rebuild a second pack. The tags were strip type, quite narrow, each
sleaved with shrink sleaving and easy to solder. I had to fold some, so
as to exit in the correct direction to match the build.

To reply to the other question - my drill gets used infrequently, but I
usually make quite heavy use of it when I do. Maybe once a fortnight.
The voltage has not dipped, since I initially charged them 3 days ago.

Looks good - if you'd let us know how they seem to hold up please, I'll
order some if good.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) brought next idea :
If they really are as good as you say, remarkable value.

Does the drill have as much torque as with the originals when they were
good? This is often the giveaway with replacements - they can't deliver
the same peak current.

Difficult to be sure, but I would say yes. I cannot stop the drill with
my hand, without risk of a friction burn when it runs at full speed.

On an 18v drill? I'd hope you couldn't stall that with your hand even with
the old batteries.

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

For that price I suspect there is something fishy going on. I realise that
shipping has some subsidy, but the price is too cheap. Additionally that
package weighs about 400g which hits the pricey end of shipping from China
(I think they would pay about $20 shipping)

UK suppliers are about 3-4 pounds per cell and most of the cells on the
market are 3.3Ah or thereabouts, while these are 6Ah. A fun trick to making
'larger' batteries is to take an AA NiMH, put it in a C/D cell case and
surround the outside with cement so that it weighs about right. A Sub-C
NiMH should weigh about 55g - would be interesting to know how much yours
weigh.

It may be they're production failures, which might be managed by having
overstock and swapping in cells as they die. But I suspect they're flat
lying about the capacity for starters.

Theo

On 26/08/16 11:42, Theo wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

For that price I suspect there is something fishy going on. I realise that
shipping has some subsidy, but the price is too cheap. Additionally that
package weighs about 400g which hits the pricey end of shipping from China
(I think they would pay about $20 shipping)

UK suppliers are about 3-4 pounds per cell and most of the cells on the
market are 3.3Ah or thereabouts, while these are 6Ah. A fun trick to making
'larger' batteries is to take an AA NiMH, put it in a C/D cell case and
surround the outside with cement so that it weighs about right. A Sub-C
NiMH should weigh about 55g - would be interesting to know how much yours
weigh.

It may be they're production failures, which might be managed by having
overstock and swapping in cells as they die. But I suspect they're flat
lying about the capacity for starters.

Theo


Probably a little of all of them


You can get tagged sub Cs @ 5Ah for around £5 a cell...from overlander

Other places around £4 per cell for 4Ah...



--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

In article ,
Theo wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

For that price I suspect there is something fishy going on. I realise
that shipping has some subsidy, but the price is too cheap.
Additionally that package weighs about 400g which hits the pricey end of
shipping from China (I think they would pay about $20 shipping)

UK suppliers are about 3-4 pounds per cell and most of the cells on the
market are 3.3Ah or thereabouts, while these are 6Ah. A fun trick to
making 'larger' batteries is to take an AA NiMH, put it in a C/D cell
case and surround the outside with cement so that it weighs about right.
A Sub-C NiMH should weigh about 55g - would be interesting to know how
much yours weigh.

It may be they're production failures, which might be managed by having
overstock and swapping in cells as they die. But I suspect they're flat
lying about the capacity for starters.

Agreed. They simply seem to be too good to be true at the price. Hence my
question about the drill performance - maximum current delivery is a very
good test of a cell's quality.

Of course they may be adequate for light use of the drill, and better than
knackered ones. But the other test is just how long they last in service.
Batteries seem to be one thing makers get away with not providing any real
warranty with. Making them a prime target for fraudulent selling.

--
*They told me I had type-A blood, but it was a Type-O.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26 Aug 2016 11:42:03 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
PeterC pretended :
Looks good - where did you get the cells, please?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390848437556

For that price I suspect there is something fishy going on. I realise that
shipping has some subsidy, but the price is too cheap. Additionally that
package weighs about 400g which hits the pricey end of shipping from China
(I think they would pay about $20 shipping)

UK suppliers are about 3-4 pounds per cell and most of the cells on the
market are 3.3Ah or thereabouts, while these are 6Ah. A fun trick to making
'larger' batteries is to take an AA NiMH, put it in a C/D cell case and
surround the outside with cement so that it weighs about right. A Sub-C
NiMH should weigh about 55g - would be interesting to know how much yours
weigh.

It may be they're production failures, which might be managed by having
overstock and swapping in cells as they die. But I suspect they're flat
lying about the capacity for starters.

The batch of 8 x (so called) 10Ah C NiMhs I bought on eBay from China
all tested out at around 1.7Ah.

When I posted the results of my automatic / electronic tests of all 8
cells over 5 complete cycles they offered a full refund citing
'production batch issues' ... but when I asked if (therefore) that my
purchase of a second batch of the same should give me a good chance of
the 'good' cells, they suggested I buy them from elsewhere. ;-)

Before I purchased I had seen negative feedback citing similar
observations but I was just interested to test them for myself.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 00:45:57 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) brought next idea :
If they really are as good as you say, remarkable value.

Does the drill have as much torque as with the originals when they were
good? This is often the giveaway with replacements - they can't deliver
the same peak current.

Difficult to be sure, but I would say yes. I cannot stop the drill with
my hand, without risk of a friction burn when it runs at full speed.

On an 18v drill? I'd hope you couldn't stall that with your hand even with
the old batteries.

My 18V Mak couldn't be stopped, then the batteries died (both at about the
same age - suspiscious?). Fully 'charged', I can't stop it but after a
couple of goes I can.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

T i m wrote:
When I posted the results of my automatic / electronic tests of all 8
cells over 5 complete cycles they offered a full refund citing
'production batch issues' ... but when I asked if (therefore) that my
purchase of a second batch of the same should give me a good chance of
the 'good' cells, they suggested I buy them from elsewhere. ;-)

Before I purchased I had seen negative feedback citing similar
observations but I was just interested to test them for myself.

I think there are several wheezes they're using:

One is that the real test of cells is their longevity. Top end laptops spec
their batteries have 80% capacity at 1000 cycles, and they mean it. A lower
quality battery might only get 250 cycles. You only get to find this out
several years down the track, long past any 'buyer protection' has expired.

Then they rely on consumers buying in small quantities and not bothering to
complain if the product is junk - because they're not buying again and it
isn't worth it. Nobody is going to be sending faulty parts back to China.

And also 'buyer protection' turns out not to protect future buyers. I
recently opened a case about an eBay listing where the seller said the item
was in the UK but actually came from China and didn't turn up after two
months. The seller just refunded me my 99p and it erased all history of the
transaction - which meant I couldn't neg them for lying on their listing.
So, while it lands up some black marks on their eBay record (which they can
fix by just making a new identity and starting over), there isn't much
comeback for buyers if they complain.

Theo

In article ,
Theo wrote:
One is that the real test of cells is their longevity. Top end laptops
spec their batteries have 80% capacity at 1000 cycles, and they mean it.
A lower quality battery might only get 250 cycles. You only get to
find this out several years down the track, long past any 'buyer
protection' has expired.

'Vaping' batteries are an interesting one. Usually Li-ion, they often come
in a sealed housing with switch and overload protection etc, and shut down
before totally flat. Normal sort of load on a single cell 1500mA.hr one is
about 2 ohms. So quite heavy. And in plactice, you might be lucky to get
50 cycles out of them before they deteriorate.

Luckily for extra cost you can get a so called MOD type. This is a case
plus electronics with replaceable cell(s). And a 2500mA cell costs about 8
quid - under half that of the smaller sealed units. And hopefully will
last more like the claimed 500 cycles or so - looking good at the moment.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Theo laid this down on his screen :
For that price I suspect there is something fishy going on. I realise that
shipping has some subsidy, but the price is too cheap. Additionally that
package weighs about 400g which hits the pricey end of shipping from China
(I think they would pay about $20 shipping)

This is true of everything I get from China. They seem to have some
special deal on shipping.


UK suppliers are about 3-4 pounds per cell and most of the cells on the
market are 3.3Ah or thereabouts, while these are 6Ah. A fun trick to making
'larger' batteries is to take an AA NiMH, put it in a C/D cell case and
surround the outside with cement so that it weighs about right. A Sub-C
NiMH should weigh about 55g - would be interesting to know how much yours
weigh.

42g whereas the old Ni-Cads I replaced them with weighed 41g, so out of
curiosity I cut the spare Ni-MH apart to examine it. No cement just the
normal construction I expected. I used a postal scale, which had been
checked with calibration weights.

Most of what the UK sellers offer, is imported from Chinese suppliers
anyway - they just double the price in the UK.


It may be they're production failures, which might be managed by having
overstock and swapping in cells as they die. But I suspect they're flat
lying about the capacity for starters.

Certainly they are lying about the capacity. it is a given when buying
batteries from China. I have been satisfied with all the batteries and
cells I have previously bought direct from China, ignoring the wild
capacity claims. It has had a bit of use this morning and the battery
voltage is still close to 20v after its had a rest.

I suspect the shipping regulations insist they are sent out close to
flat condition.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Dave Plowman (News) explained :
'Vaping' batteries are an interesting one. Usually Li-ion, they often come
in a sealed housing with switch and overload protection etc, and shut down
before totally flat. Normal sort of load on a single cell 1500mA.hr one is
about 2 ohms. So quite heavy. And in plactice, you might be lucky to get
50 cycles out of them before they deteriorate.

Luckily for extra cost you can get a so called MOD type. This is a case
plus electronics with replaceable cell(s). And a 2500mA cell costs about 8
quid - under half that of the smaller sealed units. And hopefully will
last more like the claimed 500 cycles or so - looking good at the moment.

I now source all of my vaping needs direct from China, including the
liquid. I have had zero issues in the two years I have been doing this.
Hardware costs are around 60/70%, liquids around 20/30% of UK prices.
My two batteries are now 24 months old and still good as new.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk