Currently, the incoming phone cable terminates in a small junction box on
the front wall of the property, from where a separate cable runs some thirty
feet to the master socket. The phone and wired router are both located on a
desk very close to the master socket.

The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested putting
the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables to the desk
area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be done? Will the
internet performance be affected if the router is further from the master
socket than it is at present?

Thanks.

AIn article , Bert
Coules wrote:
Currently, the incoming phone cable terminates in a small junction box on
the front wall of the property, from where a separate cable runs some
thirty feet to the master socket. The phone and wired router are both
located on a desk very close to the master socket.

The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested
putting the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables
to the desk area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be
done? Will the internet performance be affected if the router is
further from the master socket than it is at present?

all the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed by
BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for the
incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to terminate in a
junction box just inside the property and then run on from there? Doesn't
that junction in the cable affect the quality or performance of the line?

On 20/08/16 08:59, Bert Coules wrote:
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks.

However in practice Openreach dont give a ****.

I took my overhead into the new build loft, and connected it to some cat
5 and ran it down to a master socket where I wanted iot. Ehen I had
issues with the line, the Openreach engineer said 'it checks out OK -
the fault is in the road, but I've put a proper BT junction box in the
loft for you :-)


I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed
by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for
the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to
terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then run on
from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or
performance of the line?

Not so as you would notice, no.

Corroded joints are the problem, or huge runs on cable that isn't some
semblance of twisted pair.

Good joints are unnoticeable up to the sorts of frequencies that ADSL
runs at (2MHz) and are totally unnoticeable for actual audio.






--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not so as you would notice, no.
Corroded joints are the problem, or huge runs on cable that isn't some
semblance of twisted pair.

Thanks for that. So apart from the need to run two cables from the front of
the house to the desk rather than one as at present, moving the master
socket should have no appreciable effect?

Bert Coules wrote:

The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested putting
the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables to the desk
area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be done?

It's fine, but generally a single cable will be OK too (it's how BT
often do it) use one pair for the filtered phone side and another pair
for the unfiltered xDSL side, probably best to omit the bell wire unless
you have ancient wired phones.

Will the internet performance be affected if the router is further
from the master socket than it is at present?

Barely, the extra distance within a house is negligible compared to the
exchange to house (ADSL) or cabinet to house (VDSL) distance, though the
internal cable is likely in an electrically nosier environment, route it
away from other cables or mains sockets.

Bert Coules wrote:

charles wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT.

True.

You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

True, but often ignored. If you are convinced that you or your builders
can do a "proper job" of moving it, it's vanishingly improbable that BT
will ever notice.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed by
BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for the
incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to terminate in a
junction box just inside the property and then run on from there?

Not usual these days, the "lozenge" was typical before sockets when the
all phones were fixed wiring. I think a standard BT install now is
generally to have the master socket within a meter of where it enters
the property, any thing else is chargeable, or the customer's
responsibility.

Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or performance
of the line?

Insignificant.

In message , Bert
Coules writes
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed
by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual
for the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to
terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then run on
from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or
performance of the line?

My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.



--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:54:59 +0100, charles
wrote:


The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested
putting the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables
to the desk area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be
done? Will the internet performance be affected if the router is
further from the master socket than it is at present?

all the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

That can be taken to extremes. I recall on a project where we
demolished a Pub in the days when phones were still the property of BT
with hard wired junction boxes we deliberately left a pile of brick
rubble in a 10ft high mound, sitting tidily on top was the cream 700
series phone which still rang out occasionally from its perch .
BT had been informed but not acted quickly enough.

G.Harman

On 20/08/2016 09:18, Andy Burns wrote:
Bert Coules wrote:

charles wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT.

True.

You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

True, but often ignored. If you are convinced that you or your builders
can do a "proper job" of moving it, it's vanishingly improbable that BT
will ever notice.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't
placed by
BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for the
incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to terminate
in a
junction box just inside the property and then run on from there?

Not usual these days, the "lozenge" was typical before sockets when the
all phones were fixed wiring. I think a standard BT install now is
generally to have the master socket within a meter of where it enters
the property, any thing else is chargeable, or the customer's
responsibility.

Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or performance
of the line?

Insignificant.

New house - master socket is just inside the garage. Yes, within a metre
of the entry point. If only they'd upgrade the feed to fibre...

--
Rod

In message , charles
writes
AIn article , Bert
Coules wrote:
Currently, the incoming phone cable terminates in a small junction box on
the front wall of the property, from where a separate cable runs some
thirty feet to the master socket. The phone and wired router are both
located on a desk very close to the master socket.

The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested
putting the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables
to the desk area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be
done? Will the internet performance be affected if the router is
further from the master socket than it is at present?

all the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Ah! I'm heading straight for this problem. The incoming phone line is
right where the new roof trusses need to go.

Due to bereavement the phone use is suspended. Previously, electricians
working for the builder have dealt with simple re-positioning.

What is the proper procedure and how much might it cost?


--
Tim Lamb

On 20/08/16 09:10, Bert Coules wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not so as you would notice, no.
Corroded joints are the problem, or huge runs on cable that isn't some
semblance of twisted pair.

Thanks for that. So apart from the need to run two cables from the
front of the house to the desk rather than one as at present, moving the
master socket should have no appreciable effect?


Nope.

Proper screw or crimped connections, proper BT or CAT5 style cable, and
as long as you aren't running past a radio transmitter, you wont notice
anything.

Use a nice ADSL filter equipped master faceplate, too.


--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

Thanks to everyone for the new replies.

Tim Streater wrote:

...and keep your router as
close as poss to the master socket.

Ah. If the master socket is relocated as the builders suggest, the router
will of necessity be some thirty feet from it. Is that likely to be a
problem?

On 20/08/16 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Bert
Coules writes
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't
placed by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it
usual for the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket
but to terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then
run on from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the
quality or performance of the line?

My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

My consistent experience is that that is utter rubbish, unless you have
a wiring fault as well.






--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 20/08/16 09:26, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , charles
writes
AIn article , Bert
Coules wrote:
Currently, the incoming phone cable terminates in a small junction
box on
the front wall of the property, from where a separate cable runs some
thirty feet to the master socket. The phone and wired router are both
located on a desk very close to the master socket.

The builders doing some renovation work on the house have suggested
putting the master socket on the front wall and then running two cables
to the desk area. Is there any technical reason why that shouldn't be
done? Will the internet performance be affected if the router is
further from the master socket than it is at present?

all the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Ah! I'm heading straight for this problem. The incoming phone line is
right where the new roof trusses need to go.

Due to bereavement the phone use is suspended. Previously, electricians
working for the builder have dealt with simple re-positioning.

What is the proper procedure and how much might it cost?

The proper procedure is to connect it via a quality junction box to some
more phone cable and stick it wherever you want.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20m-BT-Tel...-/231575091454

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-BT-84A...-/380581895177

No Openreach engineer is going to argue with what appears to be a BT
installation.






--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 20/08/2016 08:59, Bert Coules wrote:
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed
by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for
the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to
terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then run on
from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or
performance of the line?

Its a historical quirk that if the wiring to the master socket was done
in prehistory by BT engineers then they remain responsible for it. You
could ask BT to move it elsewhere but they will charge for doing it
(unless the reason for moving it is failure of their wiring).

New installations or additional lines they tend to put the master socket
where it comes into the building (in my house in the loft!). House owner
is responisble for all wiring after the master socket.

Unless you run the signal cables parallel with mains wiring it won't
make a blind bit of difference. I can't measure any difference (ie
0.1dB loss) when I add an extra 20m of cable into my ADSL line.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Tim Streater wrote:

keep your router as close as poss to the master socket.

What speed difference do you predict for an extra 30' of cable?

On 20/08/16 09:37, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/08/2016 08:59, Bert Coules wrote:
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't placed
by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it usual for
the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket but to
terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then run on
from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the quality or
performance of the line?

Its a historical quirk that if the wiring to the master socket was done
in prehistory by BT engineers then they remain responsible for it. You
could ask BT to move it elsewhere but they will charge for doing it
(unless the reason for moving it is failure of their wiring).

New installations or additional lines they tend to put the master socket
where it comes into the building (in my house in the loft!). House owner
is responisble for all wiring after the master socket.

Unless you run the signal cables parallel with mains wiring it won't
make a blind bit of difference. I can't measure any difference (ie
0.1dB loss) when I add an extra 20m of cable into my ADSL line.


If its the right sort of cable.

'extension wires' are not great. Proper cat 5 or BT twisted pair is good.

Regards,
Martin Brown


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

Tim Lamb wrote:

My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

Which suggests "faulty" wiring has been removed in the process of moving
it, did you have star-wired extensions or multiple master sockets
beforehand?

Martin Brown wrote:

Unless you run the signal cables parallel with mains wiring it won't
make a blind bit of difference. I can't measure any difference (ie
0.1dB loss) when I add an extra 20m of cable into my ADSL line.

That's excellent, thanks.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If it's the right sort of cable.
'Extension wires' are not great. Proper
cat 5 or BT twisted pair is good.

The builders have told me they will use Cat 5.

On 20/08/16 09:59, Bert Coules wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If it's the right sort of cable.
'Extension wires' are not great. Proper
cat 5 or BT twisted pair is good.

The builders have told me they will use Cat 5.


Cat 5 is better electrically than BT wire...



--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 20/08/2016 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

Yes, I thought it was standard practice now to put the router right next
to the master socket.

That gives us a problem in upgrading to use FTTC, as I assume it would
involve putting an ugly new box on the wall near the master socket which
is currently in the hallway, as was common practice 30 years ago.
Unfortunately there's no mains socket nearby except a single one on the
other side of a doorway (and that's needed from time to time for a
vacuum cleaner). Does anyone know whether OpenReach are willing to
install a new master socket in a new location if one upgrades to FTTC
without charging an arm and a leg?


--
Clive Page

Bert Coules wrote:

The builders have told me they will use Cat 5.

That's good, they don't need two cables though, just use two of the
pairs in a single cable. You could use another pair to give a phone
extension back to the entry point, or both remaining pairs for a wired
ethernet, e.g. for an IPcamera.

Andy Burns wrote:

That's good, they don't need two cables though, just use two of the pairs
in a single cable.

Ah, thanks. So presumably the single cable would terminate in a double
socket at the desk?

Clive Page wrote:

Does anyone know whether OpenReach are willing to
install a new master socket in a new location if one upgrades to FTTC
without charging an arm and a leg?

Depends on which "package" the ISP orders from openreach, there used to
be two options,

leave the master where it is, just replace the faceplate.

move the master socket up to (30 feet?) from present location and make
the old master into an extension.

There is now a "wires only" install where the engineer just visits the
street cabinet and never touches anything inside your house.

Presumably the 2nd option still exists, and you'd need to ask your ISP
to order that, if not then DIY.

Bert Coules wrote:

So presumably the single cable would terminate in a double
socket at the desk?

It really depends what you want, and what type of faceplate you have (or
a prepared to replace it with).

You can have the master socket in the hall (with nothing plugged into
it) and all wiring taken from behind the faceplate to

phone extension(s) for BT631A plugs
and
xDSL extension with "RJ11" or "RJ45" socket.

or you can just have a junction box in the hall, running to where you
actually want the master socket (which will have a faceplate with phone
and xDSL sockets) if you want additional phone extensions they can be
taken from behind the faceplate there.

On Saturday, 20 August 2016 09:26:18 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
Ah! I'm heading straight for this problem. The incoming phone line is
right where the new roof trusses need to go.
Due to bereavement the phone use is suspended. Previously, electricians
working for the builder have dealt with simple re-positioning.
What is the proper procedure and how much might it cost?

Openreach Standard Visit Charge (first hour) 96.11
External Shift on same building 105.60

Openreach Network Relocation will quote before doing the work
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/hom...work_equipment

Owain

Andy,

Thanks for that. If the master socket is moved to the front of the house
then I won't be using its sockets for anything: I have no need of a phone or
router at that location. So in fact it really might just as well be a
junction box, connecting through to the spot where things *will* be plugged
in - in other words, exactly the situation at present.

Which is why the builders' determination to move the master socket struck me
as slightly odd.

Bert Coules wrote:

If the master socket is moved to the front of the house
then I won't be using its sockets for anything: I have no need of a phone or
router at that location. So in fact it really might just as well be a
junction box

But make sure it's a correct type of junction box BT would fit if they
were doing it, e.g. if you've got a metal back box there already, you
could use "jelly crimps" and put a blank faceplate over it.

If you want a genuine junction box, try
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT80b/322231335759
rather than something from B&Q.

If you've not got a suitable junction box, then putting an unused
extension socket there serves the same purpose, and again is one of the
ways BT do it, so won't look out of place to a future engineer.

connecting through to the spot where things *will* be plugged
in - in other words, exactly the situation at present.

Which is why the builders' determination to move the master socket struck me
as slightly odd.

Is your present extension wiring plugged into the front of the
faceplate, or (more neatly) wired to the rear of it?

Tim Streater wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

keep your router as close as poss to the master socket.

What speed difference do you predict for an extra 30' of cable?

Not a lot, probably.

So why keep it as close as poss?

Thanks for the advice regarding using a quality junction box.

Is your present extension wiring plugged into the front of the faceplate,
or (more neatly) wired to the rear of it?

Where the cable enters the house, do you mean? There is no faceplate: the
existing cable just comes through the wall and into one end of a rather
basic (and indeed cheap-looking) surface-mounted box, about 3" x 2" with
rounded edges, before the separate cable comes out of the other end and
heads off to the master socket.

On 20/08/16 10:08, Clive Page wrote:
On 20/08/2016 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

Yes, I thought it was standard practice now to put the router right next
to the master socket.

That gives us a problem in upgrading to use FTTC, as I assume it would
involve putting an ugly new box on the wall near the master socket which
is currently in the hallway, as was common practice 30 years ago.
Unfortunately there's no mains socket nearby except a single one on the
other side of a doorway (and that's needed from time to time for a
vacuum cleaner). Does anyone know whether OpenReach are willing to
install a new master socket in a new location if one upgrades to FTTC
without charging an arm and a leg?


Again the actual cable to the socket is only UTP so cat 5 can be used to
extend.

It's just a shift from ADSL to VDSL IIRC

So frequencies are up from 2.2Mhz to around 12Mhz.

I don't think there are any ugly new boxes. Just a VDSL faceplate on a
BT master socket.
e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GENUINE-BT-...POS/ref=sr_1_1

And a VDSL router instead of ADSL

e.g.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-880...22K/ref=sr_1_7

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 20/08/16 10:21, Bert Coules wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

That's good, they don't need two cables though, just use two of the
pairs in a single cable.

Ah, thanks. So presumably the single cable would terminate in a double
socket at the desk?


You can do that, but really it confuses everybody.

Run two cables. The extra cost is peenutz.

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 20/08/16 10:44, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/08/16 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Bert
Coules writes
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself)
are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't
placed by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it
usual for the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket
but to terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then
run on from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the
quality or performance of the line?

My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

My consistent experience is that that is utter rubbish, unless you
have a wiring fault as well.

My experience ws that getting the house phone wiring shortened and
improved, removing the bell wire, and having the router close to the MS
doubled your download speed.

*improved* is the key issue.

I used to be 1 mile and a bit from the exchange. 20 feet of extra wiring
will make sod all difference.

Its a little bit more critical with FTTC because there its a few hundred
meters max cable and 20 feet might make a difference, but the real key
is *sorting out* the internal wiring, not shortening it.

e.g. a friend phoned me a couple of year back and we got to discussing
his dire speeds and whether or not he should 'go fibre' I asked him what
his noise and attenuation figures were. They were just not right. He had
lots of power, but massive noise.

"Summat up with the house wiring" I said so he took his BT sockets
apart...and discovered unused extension wires hanging off the *hot* side
of the ADSL all over the place and under the floorboards.

He ripped all that off and, yes, his speed more than doubled.,

For exactly the same length connection to his router as he already had.





--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

In article , Bert Coules
wrote:
Thanks for the advice regarding using a quality junction box.

Is your present extension wiring plugged into the front of the
faceplate, or (more neatly) wired to the rear of it?

Where the cable enters the house, do you mean? There is no faceplate:
the existing cable just comes through the wall and into one end of a
rather basic (and indeed cheap-looking) surface-mounted box, about 3" x
2" with rounded edges, before the separate cable comes out of the other
end and heads off to the master socket.


the centre of the surface mounted box cover is probably moulded with either
BT or, if very old, GPO.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Run two cables. The extra cost is peenutz.

Cost isn't the issue, being less conspicuous might be ...

On 20/08/16 11:06, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

keep your router as close as poss to the master socket.

What speed difference do you predict for an extra 30' of cable?

Not a lot, probably.

So why keep it as close as poss?


No idea.

I'm running of a 20 meter untwisted extension here and it has made a bit
of difference. It is a cheap and rubbish extension. Its on my todo list
to sort that out.





--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 20/08/16 11:40, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Run two cables. The extra cost is peenutz.

Cost isn't the issue, being less conspicuous might be ...


I assumed it would be properly behind the walls surface..


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 20/08/2016 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Bert
Coules writes
"charles" wrote:

All the cabling before the master socket (and the socket itself) are the
property of BT. You (or your builders) are not allowed to alter them.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder then why the master socket wasn't
placed by BT where the builders are suggesting putting it now. Is it
usual for the incoming cable not to run directly to a master socket
but to terminate in a junction box just inside the property and then
run on from there? Doesn't that junction in the cable affect the
quality or performance of the line?

My very recent experience is that having your master socket next to the
router can double the download speed.

Only if there is something *seriously* wrong with the house phone wiring.

The bell wire hack is good for upto a +50% improvement on an old
installation but that is nothing to do with the socket position and
everything to do with not having a long aerial flapping in the breeze.

Regards,
Martin Brown