I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.

--
Chris Green
·

On 8/12/2016 2:15 PM, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Making (full length) rebates isn't difficult if you have a table saw.
Not very elegant filling the end bits to make it look neater, but OK for
a shed? Tacks plus putty is not difficult, or you could use flexible
filler or silicone from a gun.

You can get channel for secondary double glazing

https://www.cabp.co.uk/Solid-Sheets/...UJ4aAjoG8P8HAQ

although you might have to hunt around for something to take 4 mm as
they are normally used with 2 - 3 mm polycarbonate.

On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass in
with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a few tacks.

Alternatively, if you're happy to fit the glass at frame assembly time,
you could simply cut some grooves - rather than rebates - in the frame
members, and slot the glass into them.

Would save putty, beading, etc. - but may be a bit of a challenge if you
ever need to replace the glass.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass in
with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.

The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.


Alternatively, if you're happy to fit the glass at frame assembly time,
you could simply cut some grooves - rather than rebates - in the frame
members, and slot the glass into them.

Would save putty, beading, etc. - but may be a bit of a challenge if you
ever need to replace the glass.

Yes, I guess I could do this.

--
Chris Green
·

On Friday, 12 August 2016 17:03:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass in
with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.

The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.


Alternatively, if you're happy to fit the glass at frame assembly time,
you could simply cut some grooves - rather than rebates - in the frame
members, and slot the glass into them.

Would save putty, beading, etc. - but may be a bit of a challenge if you
ever need to replace the glass.

Yes, I guess I could do this.

You don't really explain what the problem is, making it hard to advise.
2 simple methods I've seen:
1. Plastic glazing, holes made around perimeter, screw on.
2. Plain unrouted frame, pins prevent glass dropping out. The hammer slides across the glass to put these in.


NT

Chris Green wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I
could use other sizes if that would make things easier. The
windows are about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as
single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames
and using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold
the glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass
in with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a
few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.


The head of the hammer stays in contact with the glass at all times - you
slide the hammer head up and down the glass and tap the pins in


The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.



I'd be more worried about using 2X1 as glazing bars, especially for four
foot high glass.

I'd use 3X2 as a minimum, then simply nail on a 1X1 as a rebate, glaze, then
use beads to hold everything in.

It'll all rot unless painted or otherwise treated every year.

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
Chris Green wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I
could use other sizes if that would make things easier. The
windows are about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as
single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames
and using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold
the glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass
in with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a
few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.


The head of the hammer stays in contact with the glass at all times - you
slide the hammer head up and down the glass and tap the pins in

You've done it before

The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.



I'd be more worried about using 2X1 as glazing bars, especially for four
foot high glass.

I'd use 3X2 as a minimum, then simply nail on a 1X1 as a rebate, glaze,
then use beads to hold everything in.

It'll all rot unless painted or otherwise treated every year.

wrote:

You don't really explain what the problem is, making it hard to advise.
2 simple methods I've seen:
1. Plastic glazing, holes made around perimeter, screw on.

Some is plastic but not all yet, maybe it will be eventually.


2. Plain unrouted frame, pins prevent glass dropping out. The hammer slides
across the glass to put these in.

Hmmmm. I suppose I could do this.


Thanks for all the ideas so far, I'm not sure which way to do it yet
though.

--
Chris Green
·

Phil L wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass
in with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a
few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.


The head of the hammer stays in contact with the glass at all times - you
slide the hammer head up and down the glass and tap the pins in

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.


The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.



I'd be more worried about using 2X1 as glazing bars, especially for four
foot high glass.

Yes, I was thinking I might go up to at least 2x2.


I'd use 3X2 as a minimum, then simply nail on a 1X1 as a rebate, glaze, then
use beads to hold everything in.

It'll all rot unless painted or otherwise treated every year.

It'll be pretreated wood, my experience has been that painting makes
it disintegrate quicker.

Your 3x2 + 1x1 rebate is way bigger than the original (not done by me)
glazing. I guess that's why I found the nails in glazing bars
difficult, the bars were tiny!

--
Chris Green
·

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:15:28 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window structure'
there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just reasonably
robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are about
600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult). Isn't
there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a frame that
doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.

Cheap shed solution - just tack/staple some 10mm (or similar) beading to
the inward side of the frame instead of making a rebate. Same effect, less
agro. Or go up in size; anyway fastening strips of wood with a nailer/
stapler is pretty easy.

Then fit thin polycarbonate sheets as windows secured by glazing beads.
Unlikely to break the polycarbonate.

Not as classy as a properly made window with nice clear glass, but easy.

Cheers


Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On Friday, 12 August 2016 14:16:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
I want to reglaze some quite large windows in a shed/summer house.

I'm having to rebuild the frames, there's no existing 'window
structure' there at all at the moment.

The result doesn't have to be particularly weatherproof, just
reasonably robust and, more to the point *simple* to make.

The window frames will probably be made of 25x50 timber though I could
use other sizes if that would make things easier. The windows are
about 600mm wide by 1200mm high, I want to keep them as single sheets.

What's the simplest way to do this? Making rebates in the frames and
using glazing beads seems very laborious (and fairly difficult).
Isn't there some easy sort of ready made way of mounting glass in a
frame that doesn't involve tiny thin bits of wood, putty, etc.?

E.g. I could imagine some sort of screw on channel section to hold the
glass, but such things don't seem to exist.


Buy or find o;d units of approximately the sizes you desire and offer them up where you would prefer, see if they fit pinn them in place or rest them on something. Mark the outline un charlk and cut outside the marked outline.

Slide them into th openingfg cut out and wedge square an plumb then infil the gaps to suit mastic, beading or packing -whatever.

bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all that...I
tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but used
silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

Chris Green wrote:

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.

The nails go in perfectly square to the glass - if they start skewing off at
an angle, you stop, pull it out with pinchers (not a claw hammer) and start
again with a new nail, keeping the head of the hammer in permanent contact
with the glass...I've never seen a pane break in my life done this way.

In message , Chris Green
writes
wrote:

You don't really explain what the problem is, making it hard to advise.
2 simple methods I've seen:
1. Plastic glazing, holes made around perimeter, screw on.

Some is plastic but not all yet, maybe it will be eventually.


2. Plain unrouted frame, pins prevent glass dropping out. The hammer slides
across the glass to put these in.

Hmmmm. I suppose I could do this.


Thanks for all the ideas so far, I'm not sure which way to do it yet
though.

Chat with your nearest double glazing installer. They must be dumping
dozens of potentially recyclable frames each day.


--
Tim Lamb

In message , Phil L
writes
Chris Green wrote:

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.

The nails go in perfectly square to the glass - if they start skewing off at
an angle, you stop, pull it out with pinchers (not a claw hammer) and start
again with a new nail, keeping the head of the hammer in permanent contact
with the glass...I've never seen a pane break in my life done this way.

Bit less worrying to have a thin sheet of rigid plastic between the
hammer head and the glass:-)




--
Tim Lamb

"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but
used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his shed after
he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?

On Friday, 12 August 2016 20:31:27 UTC+1, Phil L wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.

The nails go in perfectly square to the glass - if they start skewing off at
an angle, you stop, pull it out with pinchers (not a claw hammer) and start
again with a new nail, keeping the head of the hammer in permanent contact
with the glass...I've never seen a pane break in my life done this way.

I've done this a lot les times than Phil. When pins began to go askew I just pulled them straight with a finger and carried on. No problems.


NT

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Phil L
writes
Chris Green wrote:

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.

The nails go in perfectly square to the glass - if they start skewing off
at
an angle, you stop, pull it out with pinchers (not a claw hammer) and
start
again with a new nail, keeping the head of the hammer in permanent contact
with the glass...I've never seen a pane break in my life done this way.

Bit less worrying to have a thin sheet of rigid plastic between the hammer
head and the glass:-)

Nah, it's easy peasy. Just keep the hammer against the glass.
Something like this -
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....7AamAM%2BL.jpg

bm wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but
used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his shed after
he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?



elementary my dear Watson, made one to do the flashing round my wood
stove chimney the other day.

On Friday, 12 August 2016 23:33:57 UTC+1, bm wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but
used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his shed after
he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?


It's for shaping sheet lead, roof work.


NT

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 11:35:55 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, 12 August 2016 20:31:27 UTC+1, Phil L wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.

The nails go in perfectly square to the glass - if they start skewing off at
an angle, you stop, pull it out with pinchers (not a claw hammer) and start
again with a new nail, keeping the head of the hammer in permanent contact
with the glass...I've never seen a pane break in my life done this way.

I've done this a lot les times than Phil. When pins began to go askew I just pulled them straight with a finger and carried on. No problems.


NT

I use the cross pein head of a pin hammer for this job. Stays nice and flat to the glass and makes contact withnthe pin easier that using the round head

On 12/08/2016 23:33, bm wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but
used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his shed after
he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?



I don't know what it's called, but I used one when beating a flat sheet
of lead into a pot/vase as part of a plumbing/building course in 1962 at
Wandsworth Comprehensive School. It took a whole term and when finished
was squashed flat and recycled because I couldn't afford to buy the lead!

Peter

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 19:31:35 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Phil L wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/08/2016 14:15, Chris Green wrote:
Cut a rebate in the frame before you assemble it, and hold the glass
in with quarter-round section wooden beading held in place with a
few tacks.

That's basically what I'm trying to avoid! :-) I have a router so I
guess the rebate isn't too challenging but the beading/tacks have a
couple of issues:-

It's far too easy to hit the glass when knocking the tacks in,
esepcially since some of this is a little inaccessible.


The head of the hammer stays in contact with the glass at all times - you
slide the hammer head up and down the glass and tap the pins in

Which is OK until you need to angle the hammer one way or another when
the pin doesn't want to go straight. Yes, I have done quite a few of
these on existing windows and haven't broken any so far but it just
feels wrong and a bit unsafe.


The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.

and put the beading on the inside of the shed, maybe easier to access,
less prone to rot, and more secure. Chamfer the outside of the bottom
bar rebate to encourage any water to run off it.


I'd be more worried about using 2X1 as glazing bars, especially for four
foot high glass.

Yes, I was thinking I might go up to at least 2x2.


I'd use 3X2 as a minimum, then simply nail on a 1X1 as a rebate, glaze, then
use beads to hold everything in.

It'll all rot unless painted or otherwise treated every year.

It'll be pretreated wood, my experience has been that painting makes
it disintegrate quicker.

Your 3x2 + 1x1 rebate is way bigger than the original (not done by me)
glazing. I guess that's why I found the nails in glazing bars
difficult, the bars were tiny!

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
...
On 12/08/2016 23:33, bm wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago, but
used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his shed
after
he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?



I don't know what it's called, but I used one when beating a flat sheet of
lead into a pot/vase as part of a plumbing/building course in 1962 at
Wandsworth Comprehensive School. It took a whole term and when finished
was squashed flat and recycled because I couldn't afford to buy the lead!

A gold star to all. I'll be round with the Walkers shortly.
Wandsworth Comp? Was that the prison? LOL.

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Chris Green
writes
wrote:

You don't really explain what the problem is, making it hard to advise.
2 simple methods I've seen:
1. Plastic glazing, holes made around perimeter, screw on.

Some is plastic but not all yet, maybe it will be eventually.


2. Plain unrouted frame, pins prevent glass dropping out. The hammer slides
across the glass to put these in.

Hmmmm. I suppose I could do this.


Thanks for all the ideas so far, I'm not sure which way to do it yet
though.

Chat with your nearest double glazing installer. They must be dumping
dozens of potentially recyclable frames each day.

No use, the sizes are fixed by the shed so won't be standard.

--
Chris Green
·

Davidm wrote:
The beading rots much faster than everything else and the glass
falls out.

and put the beading on the inside of the shed, maybe easier to access,
less prone to rot, and more secure. Chamfer the outside of the bottom
bar rebate to encourage any water to run off it.

These are sloping windows (I think that's in my original post) so
beding inside isn't practical.

--
Chris Green
·

bm wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message
news
bm wrote:

You've done it before


Hundreds of times, but not for about 20 years, upvc put paid to all
that...I tell a fib - I put a pane in a shed window a few years ago,
but used silicone instead of putty and beads both sides

My deceased old chap taught me that one, bless him.
Those oldies knew a thing or two.
How he obtained many of his tools I don't know. Going through his
shed after he died I found many things, 1 of these for a start -
http://www.monumenttools.com/web_ima...x_A/MON699.JPG
I know what it is, any ideas?
D

It's a lead dresser. They're still used today