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PC Paul
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing on a
tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one pumped
mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral anything)
boiler.

Quotes and 'advice' from a few plumbers who've been round range from walking
out again to 'well it has to be a combi nowadays - regulations - and you'd
have to replace the shower because it would blow the O-rings, and fit TRVs
all round, and oh the radiators are probably corrdoed and weouldn't take the
pressure so they'd need replacing too,and the pipes are buried in the floor
so we'd have to put new ones in the walls...'.

Some of that may have been good advice, and some would be an improvement,
but given the brief of doing it cheap, it missed by a mile!

Hopefully I can get better advice here - on what type of boiler to fit, what
else might need doing, and the best way to go about getting it done. i.e. is
it worth buying the boiler online and finding someone to fit it or is that
impossible? Any grants going at the moment? (West Midlands area, 20yo
boiler... 1970's house)

Thanks for any thoughts...


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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Peter Crosland
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing on a
tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one
pumped mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral
anything) boiler.

Quotes and 'advice' from a few plumbers who've been round range from
walking out again to 'well it has to be a combi nowadays - regulations -
and you'd have to replace the shower because it would blow the O-rings,
and fit TRVs all round, and oh the radiators are probably corrdoed and
weouldn't take the pressure so they'd need replacing too,and the pipes are
buried in the floor so we'd have to put new ones in the walls...'.

Some of that may have been good advice, and some would be an improvement,
but given the brief of doing it cheap, it missed by a mile!


They are basically cottect. Any new boiler has to be installed to comply
with the current regulations. This may well involve changing much more than
just the boiler. There are grants available for the elderly and the
chronically sick.

Hopefully I can get better advice here - on what type of boiler to fit,
what else might need doing, and the best way to go about getting it done.
i.e. is it worth buying the boiler online and finding someone to fit it or
is that impossible? Any grants going at the moment? (West Midlands area,
20yo boiler... 1970's house)


Peter Crosland


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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Set Square
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
PC Paul wrote:

A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing
on a tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one
pumped mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral
anything) boiler.

Quotes and 'advice' from a few plumbers who've been round range from
walking out again to 'well it has to be a combi nowadays -
regulations - and you'd have to replace the shower because it would
blow the O-rings, and fit TRVs all round, and oh the radiators are
probably corrdoed and weouldn't take the pressure so they'd need
replacing too,and the pipes are buried in the floor so we'd have to
put new ones in the walls...'.

Some of that may have been good advice, and some would be an
improvement, but given the brief of doing it cheap, it missed by a
mile!

Hopefully I can get better advice here - on what type of boiler to
fit, what else might need doing, and the best way to go about getting
it done. i.e. is it worth buying the boiler online and finding
someone to fit it or is that impossible? Any grants going at the
moment? (West Midlands area, 20yo boiler... 1970's house)

Thanks for any thoughts...


There may not be a solution which simultaneously complies with current
regulations *and* meets your friend's budget constraints!

So let's start with the basics. *Why* does the boiler need to be replaced.
The only compelling reason in my view would be if it was broken and couldn't
be mended through lack of spare parts. Even then, I would question how hard
anyone had looked for spares.

If it really does *need* replacing, the new boiler must comply with the
latest energy efficiency requirements, and the controls for the whole system
must be brought up to standard - including fitting TRVs on all but one
radiator. The boiler will almost certainly need to be condensing - but does
*not* need to be a combi. Your friend can keep the existing stored hot
system and shower - no problem. A condensing boiler may or may not be able
to be fitted in exactly the same location as the old boiler - so some new
pipework may be involved. It will almost certainly require a sealed system -
so the current F&E tank and associated pipes will have to go, and be
replaced by a pressure vessel and filling loop. [Anyone know whether you can
still have a vented system with a new condensing boiler?] If any of the
radiators or pipework are suspect, the additional pressure may well finish
them off.

Decide exactly what needs to be done, and then get quotes from several
independent heating engineers. Try to get recommendations from people you
know who have had work done. Don't go anywhere near British Gas!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Posted to uk.d-i-y
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
PC Paul wrote:


A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing
on a tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one
pumped mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral
anything) boiler.


There may not be a solution which simultaneously complies with current
regulations *and* meets your friend's budget constraints!

So let's start with the basics. *Why* does the boiler need to be replaced.
The only compelling reason in my view would be if it was broken and couldn't
be mended through lack of spare parts. Even then, I would question how hard
anyone had looked for spares.


I quite agree, repairing the boiler would be the only low cost
compliant option. Why not tell us more about the boiler.

The next lowest cost option is to fit a new replacement boiler, but its
against regs so no plumber will do it, and youre not allowed to either.
If you replace boiler and get compliant, they'll want to change
everything. Including your HW cylinder. To get your guarantee you'll
also be pressed into forking out excessive money for a pressure flush.

I would avoid a pressurised system if possible. Theyre less reliable
and put a lot more stress on joints, heat exchanger, rads, etc.


NT

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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Mike Harrison
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:09:49 -0000, "PC Paul" wrote:

A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing on a
tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one pumped
mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral anything)
boiler.

Quotes and 'advice' from a few plumbers who've been round range from walking
out again to 'well it has to be a combi nowadays - regulations - and you'd
have to replace the shower because it would blow the O-rings, and fit TRVs
all round, and oh the radiators are probably corrdoed and weouldn't take the
pressure so they'd need replacing too,and the pipes are buried in the floor
so we'd have to put new ones in the walls...'.

Some of that may have been good advice, and some would be an improvement,
but given the brief of doing it cheap, it missed by a mile!

Hopefully I can get better advice here - on what type of boiler to fit, what
else might need doing, and the best way to go about getting it done. i.e. is
it worth buying the boiler online and finding someone to fit it or is that
impossible? Any grants going at the moment? (West Midlands area, 20yo
boiler... 1970's house)

Thanks for any thoughts...



The cheapest way would be to find someone replacing a boiler of a similar type which is working but
being replaced for other reasons (e.g general refurb) and fit that. As it would be of comparable
age, regs would only be an issue if anyone could prove when it was done...

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Posted to uk.d-i-y
Set Square
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Ed Sirett wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:18:57 +0000, Set Square wrote:

Anyone know whether you can still
have a vented system with a new condensing boiler?


Quite a few models permit (cf require) the use of a vented primary.
Including Keston and Poxi-Batterton.


Interesting - thanks. So it may be possible to replace the boiler with a
modern one without *too* much upheaval. The system would still need TRVs and
some way of achieving a boiler interlock, though.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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John Stumbles
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:14:00 +0000, Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
PC Paul wrote:


It doesn't light reliably (spark ignition just sparks indefinitely)
unless the cover is left slightly propped open (which I know is
somewhat dodgy - but it's in a well ventilated kitchen with a CO
alarm right next to it). and now it's stopped even that. So it's time
to go, I think.


There may be something wrong with the spark gap - which should be fixable.
My Baxi Solo won't fire if the two screws holding the outer casing on are
done up tight. I presume that they distort something slightly and screw up
the spark gap. Slacken them just a bit, and it's fine!


Baxi Solo 2 or 3? I've had a devil of a time with a 2 which
would intermittently stop lighting. Replacing the pilot injector and
ignition electrode seemed to fix it but then it played up again.
Replacing the insulation on the EHT cable seemes to have fixed it (for
now: fingers crossed, salt over shoulder, watch out you chickens and goats)

Maybe a similar problem with the OP's boiler?



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Posted to uk.d-i-y
PC Paul
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

John Stumbles wrote:
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:14:00 +0000, Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
PC Paul wrote:


It doesn't light reliably (spark ignition just sparks indefinitely)
unless the cover is left slightly propped open (which I know is
somewhat dodgy - but it's in a well ventilated kitchen with a CO
alarm right next to it). and now it's stopped even that. So it's
time to go, I think.


There may be something wrong with the spark gap - which should be
fixable. My Baxi Solo won't fire if the two screws holding the outer
casing on are done up tight. I presume that they distort something
slightly and screw up the spark gap. Slacken them just a bit, and
it's fine!


Baxi Solo 2 or 3? I've had a devil of a time with a 2 which
would intermittently stop lighting. Replacing the pilot injector and
ignition electrode seemed to fix it but then it played up again.
Replacing the insulation on the EHT cable seemes to have fixed it (for
now: fingers crossed, salt over shoulder, watch out you chickens and
goats)

Maybe a similar problem with the OP's boiler?


Possibly but the whole pilot injector assembly has been replaced, as has the
themocouple and the EHT wire from the board to the electrode... although
saying that, that was about a year ago and it has worked well enough in the
meantime (albeit propped slightly open) so conceivably something else could
be going wrong *again* now!


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Set Square
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John Stumbles wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:14:00 +0000, Set Square wrote:

My Baxi Solo won't fire if the two screws holding the outer
casing on are done up tight. I presume that they distort something
slightly and screw up the spark gap. Slacken them just a bit, and
it's fine!


Baxi Solo 2 or 3?


Neither! Just a Solo - I suppose it would be a Solo 1, except that they
didn't start numbering them until the Solo 2!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Christian McArdle
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

It will almost certainly require a sealed system - so the current F&E
tank and associated pipes will have to go, and be replaced by a pressure
vessel and filling loop. [Anyone know whether you can still have a
vented system with a new condensing boiler?]


Yes. No problem, although not all models are suitable. My last house had an
condensing Ideal Icos on a vented system. However, a sealed system is
superior, and I would advise taking the opportunity to change over.

If any of the radiators or pipework are suspect, the additional pressure
may well finish them off.


I see this as an advantage of the sealed system. Better have the
radiators/valves etc. blow right now, with a plumber in the building. If the
sealed system at 2 bar causes a leak, there is only a few months left at
atmospheric pressure, when they might start leaking during Christmas dinner
or when you're off on holiday.

Christian.



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Christian McArdle
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

Interesting - thanks. So it may be possible to replace the boiler with a
modern one without *too* much upheaval. The system would still need TRVs

and
some way of achieving a boiler interlock, though.


The current system already has heating system interlock, according to the
description.

What it might not have, and would need if not, is a cylinder thermostat and
fully independently controlled pumped primary circuit to the coil.

Christian.



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Set Square
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Christian McArdle wrote:


The current system already has heating system interlock, according to
the description.

I'm not sure how you have deduced that. He has said that it is a 20-year-old
boiler, and the description says:
"She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one pumped
mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral anything)
boiler."

I'd put my money on that being a gravity HW and pumped CH system, with no
valves and no cylinder stat. If so, it doesn't even provide heating
interlock since the boiler will continue to cycle on its own stat after the
room stat has turned the pump off.

What it might not have, and would need if not, is a cylinder
thermostat and fully independently controlled pumped primary circuit
to the coil.

Or a 2-port zone valve and cyl stat to convert it to C-Plan.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Christian McArdle
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

What it might not have, and would need if not, is a cylinder
thermostat and fully independently controlled pumped primary circuit
to the coil.


Or a 2-port zone valve and cyl stat to convert it to C-Plan.


C-Plan does not comply with building regulations for a gas/oil boiler, as
the hot water circulation is unpumped. Although a worthwhile addition to an
existing system, it would have to be replaced upon boiler replacement.

Christian.


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Set Square
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Christian McArdle wrote:

What it might not have, and would need if not, is a cylinder
thermostat and fully independently controlled pumped primary circuit
to the coil.


Or a 2-port zone valve and cyl stat to convert it to C-Plan.


C-Plan does not comply with building regulations for a gas/oil
boiler, as the hot water circulation is unpumped. Although a
worthwhile addition to an existing system, it would have to be
replaced upon boiler replacement.

Christian.


In that case, even more extensive mods would be needed if it *is* a gravity
HW system.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Christian McArdle
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In that case, even more extensive mods would be needed if it *is* a
gravity
HW system.


It is easy to modify C Plan by adding an additional pump on the hot water
side. Alternatively, most modernish boilers can have the gravity hot water
capped off and have S/Y on the heating side. Check first, though, as some
boilers require a reliable gravity circuit for heat dumping.

Christian.


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PC Paul
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

Christian McArdle wrote:
In that case, even more extensive mods would be needed if it *is* a
gravity HW system.


It is easy to modify C Plan by adding an additional pump on the hot
water side. Alternatively, most modernish boilers can have the
gravity hot water capped off and have S/Y on the heating side. Check
first, though, as some boilers require a reliable gravity circuit for
heat dumping.


FWIW it does have a cylinder stat as well as the wall stat, a pump and a
three position valve.

I *think* if boilers are still available that will run a vented system while
not containing a pump or being at mains pressure then that will be a drop in
replacement. TRVs are probably worth doing at the same time while the system
is drained and about to get a new shot of inhibitor...


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Set Square
 
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Default Simplest way to replace the boiler...

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
PC Paul wrote:


FWIW it does have a cylinder stat as well as the wall stat, a pump
and a three position valve.

That's not what you said initially!

I *think* if boilers are still available that will run a vented
system while not containing a pump or being at mains pressure then
that will be a drop in replacement. TRVs are probably worth doing at
the same time while the system is drained and about to get a new shot
of inhibitor...


Sounds like it is a Y-Plan system - which already has all the necessary
boiler interlocks. But, AIUI, TRVs will be *required* - rather than
optional - to meet current regs.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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  #21   Report Post  
Junior Member
 
Posts: 17
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by PC Paul
A friend of mine needs her old kitchen wallmounted boiler replacing on a
tight budget...

What's the simplest and/or best way to do it?

She currently has radiators without TRVs, a wall stat, an all-in-one pumped
mixer shower and the aforementioned old-standard (no integral anything)
boiler.

Quotes and 'advice' from a few plumbers who've been round range from walking
out again to 'well it has to be a combi nowadays - regulations - and you'd
have to replace the shower because it would blow the O-rings, and fit TRVs
all round, and oh the radiators are probably corrdoed and weouldn't take the
pressure so they'd need replacing too,and the pipes are buried in the floor
so we'd have to put new ones in the walls...'.

Some of that may have been good advice, and some would be an improvement,
but given the brief of doing it cheap, it missed by a mile!

Hopefully I can get better advice here - on what type of boiler to fit, what
else might need doing, and the best way to go about getting it done. i.e. is
it worth buying the boiler online and finding someone to fit it or is that
impossible? Any grants going at the moment? (West Midlands area, 20yo
boiler... 1970's house)

Thanks for any thoughts...
Cheapest way.......Do it yourself. Saves a fortune! Spanner monkeys and sparkies always charge a fortune for shoddy work! That f**cks me right off!
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