On 8/13/2016 6:40 AM, harry wrote:
On Friday, 12 August 2016 13:36:23 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 8/11/2016 5:58 PM, Capitol wrote:
Read a Telegraph article today on these. Do they have a future?

I was asked this in the pub last night, but had to look up the article.
What I thought was particularly poor was the journalist's implication
that there is so much progress that we will be able to rely on them
completely in five to ten years. Picking this Harvard one as a leader
when it is clearly still at the small scale laboratory stage was a cheap
tactic.

There's been serious research into batteries since the 1970's, I
remember meeting a guy who was working on the sodium-sulphur battery
when I was on a sodium handling course at Dounreay, at a time when that
was supposed to be imminent. Obviously, I welcome research by world
class organisations and I suspect that Musk is on to something for high
end domestic. But I don't see solar panels and windmills on the roof,
plus a cellar full of batteries, taking something like a major hospital
or medium to heavy industry off the grid. Not any time soon, at least.

We are always going to need oil/coal for the production of metals from ore.

I'd have said the really important use for oil/coal was in the
production of polymers. And however good their recycling becomes, I
can't see us managing without significant production anywhere in the
forseeable future.

On Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:53:48 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/08/2016 06:59, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 14 August 2016 04:56:46 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/08/2016 18:17, harry wrote:

Nobody

Bzzzzrt Wrong, try again harry.

Are you telling us that never in the history of EV ownership has anyone
ever ran out of juice?

runs car batteries to depletion because you can't take electricity to
them in containers/buckets.

As there is noway of accurately knowing how much energy remains in a
battery, no-one runs their battery even close to depletion.

Lets take a real world example. A friend of mine was coming over to see
me in his leaf. He left home with a nearly full charge, to do what
should have been a 40 mile journey. Normally he can *just* get here and
back again on a single charge.

This time it was very cold, and he got stuck for an hour and a half in a
traffic jam on a dual carriage way due to an accident. Since he needed
to run heating for that time, that eat into his juice. When he got close
to my place his car was telling him he had 10 miles of range. Then he
found they were resurfacing our road, and he could not get into it from
one end. Needed to detour of a few miles to go to the other end and come
in that way. He finally pulled onto my drive with the car indicating 4
miles range remaining.

Now whether you know exactly what capacity remains or not does not
really matter. Its not good for the stress levels to have the car saying
4 miles left when you have an unknown number of miles still to do, and
nowhere handy to plug it in.

One never knows exactly how much power will be consumed on a "new"
journey either. There are so many factors.

I know your story is a lie.

Like most things you "know", they are incorrect.

Electric cars use zero power while stopped in traffic. It is one of their main benefits.

What do the heaters run on - Scotch mist?

And nobody sets off on an extreme range journey with less then full charge.

40 miles is not an "extreme range journey" - its one that he knows his
car will do on less than half a charge.

And unless they know exactly where/how they are going to recharge,

Which he did - he knew that he could recharge at my place when he got here.

when half the available energy is used on a journey, they turn round and go home.

So he runs out a few mile from home, wastes a few hours and does not get
where he wanted to go?

Yup, I can see that would make perfect sense to someone like you.

No-one would set out on such a journey anyway without pre-checks.

What would you suggest, a survey of all the drivers likely to be using
the same road to check if they are planning on having an accident?

I always check distances on Google Maps for a new destination and try to assess any hills by looking at a map.

Do you have the comprehension skills of a spanner? (no need to answer
that, we know the answer).

He was coming here. The clue in the description was "friend" - you could
perhaps infer from that, he has been here before!

The energy content/computer range calculation devices on electric cars are inaccurate.
Too many assumptions are made.
So the "four miles" is also cobblers.

Yup, it might have only be 1 or it might have been ten.

(he also has a (non Nissan approved) smartphone app that lets him
interrogate all kinds of detail from the car that it won't tell you via
its instrumentation, such as the actual battery state and the capacity
remaining)

All this means that you have to keep some "range" in hand when assessing any extreme range journey.

40 miles? Can I have a pint of whatever you are on harry?

And charging in the car park at Lakeside now costs my mate with the leaf
£12, that's not far cheaper than petrol (if at all).


One of the reasons I charge at home.
They were all free or cheap card operated only a couple of years back.
But that was always a dodgy inducement.

Bait and switch, as I said.

In Summer I charge on free electricity.

Its not free - it cost you a significant capital cost to be able to
collect this "free" electricity.

It's free. I get paid for it whether I use it myself or not.

Its free in the same way the gas I get from EDF is free - it just comes
out of a hole in the ground.



It's a technical impossibility to determine the exact amount of energy remaining in a battery.
It's assessed indirectly by integrating voltage, current and time. Various assumptions are made.
Which are often wrong.
So any stupid "apps" are of no benefit at all.
They can tell you where the nearest charge point is.
But not whether it's in use, working or vandalised.
I can see you are very credulous. Bamboozled by the sales bull****.

Nobody uses the heater on an electric car on an extreme range journey. If it's that cold, the battery performance will be affected as well.

On Sunday, 14 August 2016 04:59:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/08/2016 18:25, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 13 August 2016 11:39:44 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/08/2016 00:32, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:28:19 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 12/08/2016 08:51, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2016 23:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/08/2016 17:58, Capitol wrote:

Read a Telegraph article today on these. Do they have a
future?

Nice in that they have a long life and should not lose capacity over
time. However the normal problem of energy density still exists - many
offer less than 1MJ per litre (compared to 43MJ/l for petrol)


I don't think they are intended to replace petrol.

Not suggesting they were, just illustrating that the energy density is
pretty low in relative terms.

Yes, very low compared to our highest energy density portable fuelling
option (setting aside the needs of rocketry) but I think it's some 2 or 3
orders of magnitude better than your typical hydro pumped storage option
in terms of land usage which is why the technology is being researched at
all.

Not just land usage, but also suitable geography. The space is not much
use without the hills and water.


With pump storage, the same water can be used over and over.

Even a closed system still needs some replenishment since some if lost
to evaporation.

The option exists of using natural underground water reservoirs .
Ie, letting water run down a borehole to generate power.

Which stations did you have in mind that do this?


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

It's an idea that has been mooted.

On 15/08/2016 07:32, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:53:48 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/08/2016 06:59, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 14 August 2016 04:56:46 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/08/2016 18:17, harry wrote:

Nobody

Bzzzzrt Wrong, try again harry.

Are you telling us that never in the history of EV ownership has anyone
ever ran out of juice?

runs car batteries to depletion because you can't take electricity to
them in containers/buckets.

As there is noway of accurately knowing how much energy remains in a
battery, no-one runs their battery even close to depletion.

Lets take a real world example. A friend of mine was coming over to see
me in his leaf. He left home with a nearly full charge, to do what
should have been a 40 mile journey. Normally he can *just* get here and
back again on a single charge.

This time it was very cold, and he got stuck for an hour and a half in a
traffic jam on a dual carriage way due to an accident. Since he needed
to run heating for that time, that eat into his juice. When he got close
to my place his car was telling him he had 10 miles of range. Then he
found they were resurfacing our road, and he could not get into it from
one end. Needed to detour of a few miles to go to the other end and come
in that way. He finally pulled onto my drive with the car indicating 4
miles range remaining.

Now whether you know exactly what capacity remains or not does not
really matter. Its not good for the stress levels to have the car saying
4 miles left when you have an unknown number of miles still to do, and
nowhere handy to plug it in.

One never knows exactly how much power will be consumed on a "new"
journey either. There are so many factors.

I know your story is a lie.

Like most things you "know", they are incorrect.

Electric cars use zero power while stopped in traffic. It is one of their main benefits.

What do the heaters run on - Scotch mist?

And nobody sets off on an extreme range journey with less then full charge.

40 miles is not an "extreme range journey" - its one that he knows his
car will do on less than half a charge.

And unless they know exactly where/how they are going to recharge,

Which he did - he knew that he could recharge at my place when he got here.

when half the available energy is used on a journey, they turn round and go home.

So he runs out a few mile from home, wastes a few hours and does not get
where he wanted to go?

Yup, I can see that would make perfect sense to someone like you.

No-one would set out on such a journey anyway without pre-checks.

What would you suggest, a survey of all the drivers likely to be using
the same road to check if they are planning on having an accident?

I always check distances on Google Maps for a new destination and try to assess any hills by looking at a map.

Do you have the comprehension skills of a spanner? (no need to answer
that, we know the answer).

He was coming here. The clue in the description was "friend" - you could
perhaps infer from that, he has been here before!

The energy content/computer range calculation devices on electric cars are inaccurate.
Too many assumptions are made.
So the "four miles" is also cobblers.

Yup, it might have only be 1 or it might have been ten.

(he also has a (non Nissan approved) smartphone app that lets him
interrogate all kinds of detail from the car that it won't tell you via
its instrumentation, such as the actual battery state and the capacity
remaining)

All this means that you have to keep some "range" in hand when assessing any extreme range journey.

40 miles? Can I have a pint of whatever you are on harry?

And charging in the car park at Lakeside now costs my mate with the leaf
£12, that's not far cheaper than petrol (if at all).


One of the reasons I charge at home.
They were all free or cheap card operated only a couple of years back.
But that was always a dodgy inducement.

Bait and switch, as I said.

In Summer I charge on free electricity.

Its not free - it cost you a significant capital cost to be able to
collect this "free" electricity.

It's free. I get paid for it whether I use it myself or not.

Its free in the same way the gas I get from EDF is free - it just comes
out of a hole in the ground.



You seem to be wandering off at a tangential irrelevance.

You stated that "no-one runs their battery even close to depletion". I
have given you one example of when this was untrue.

Had you have said that "EV owners will try to avoid situations where
there run close to depletion", then I would have accepted your
statement. But you stated categorically that it never happens.

It's a technical impossibility to determine the exact amount of energy remaining in a battery.

I agree you can't do it precisely.

This makes the problem worse rather than better.

At some point the car will decide that it is not going to go any further
and stop - its software will make this decision based on what its
sensors are telling it about the charge state - knowing that it needs to
maintain enough energy to protect the battery from damage, and keep the
cars electronics and control systems operable. It will make that
decision with some caution and err on the side of being over protective.

Whether it makes this decision at the perfectly optimal time or not, is
again of little relevance - since you have still stopped, and are not
going any further. Whining that there is still charge in the battery
ain't going to help.

So prattling about the accuracy of the readings is just an attempt at
obfuscation.

So any stupid "apps" are of no benefit at all.

They are of great benefit since they tell you stuff you can't otherwise
find out. Like what fault codes the car is reporting, or what the
remaining battery health is - all stuff not disclosed by the internal
instrumentation, and stuff the services centres are reluctant to hand out.

They can tell you where the nearest charge point is.

Not this one. Its just for car diagnostics, and some remote control /
status reporting so you can see the state of charge when you are not
physically in the car, and turn on the heater etc while its mains powered.

But not whether it's in use, working or vandalised.
I can see you are very credulous. Bamboozled by the sales bull****.

Odd how I can see through your bull**** so easily then.

Note also that these particular apps are not approved by or created by
Nissan - and they don't promote them, so its seems a bit of a stretch to
claim they are an exercise in marketing.

(in fact their service centres get the hump when owners use them to
challenge any dodgy claims made by the service centre)

Nobody uses the heater on an electric car on an extreme range journey. If it's that cold, the battery performance will be affected as well.

ok let's do subtitles for the "brain dead" as you would say:

"Nobody" again - every time you say it you know its going to be wrong.

This was not an extreme range journey - this was a short to mid range
journey. A repeat journey that had been made many times before.

It was entirely reasonable to use the heater on a very cold day, when
starting a short journey that should take 30 - 40 mins.

Even when you get stuck in traffic, you don't have an immediate
indication that you will be stuck for an extended period of time.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15/08/2016 07:32, harry wrote:

Nobody uses the heater on an electric car on an extreme range
journey. If it's that cold, the battery performance will be affected
as well.



Electric cars sound pretty **** according to what you say.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 14 August 2016 20:53:48 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/08/2016 06:59, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 14 August 2016 04:56:46 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/08/2016 18:17, harry wrote:

Nobody

Bzzzzrt Wrong, try again harry.

Are you telling us that never in the history of EV ownership has
anyone
ever ran out of juice?

runs car batteries to depletion because you can't take electricity to
them in containers/buckets.

As there is noway of accurately knowing how much energy remains in a
battery, no-one runs their battery even close to depletion.

Lets take a real world example. A friend of mine was coming over to
see
me in his leaf. He left home with a nearly full charge, to do what
should have been a 40 mile journey. Normally he can *just* get here
and
back again on a single charge.

This time it was very cold, and he got stuck for an hour and a half in
a
traffic jam on a dual carriage way due to an accident. Since he needed
to run heating for that time, that eat into his juice. When he got
close
to my place his car was telling him he had 10 miles of range. Then he
found they were resurfacing our road, and he could not get into it
from
one end. Needed to detour of a few miles to go to the other end and
come
in that way. He finally pulled onto my drive with the car indicating 4
miles range remaining.

Now whether you know exactly what capacity remains or not does not
really matter. Its not good for the stress levels to have the car
saying
4 miles left when you have an unknown number of miles still to do, and
nowhere handy to plug it in.

One never knows exactly how much power will be consumed on a "new"
journey either. There are so many factors.

I know your story is a lie.

Like most things you "know", they are incorrect.

Electric cars use zero power while stopped in traffic. It is one of
their main benefits.

What do the heaters run on - Scotch mist?

And nobody sets off on an extreme range journey with less then full
charge.

40 miles is not an "extreme range journey" - its one that he knows his
car will do on less than half a charge.

And unless they know exactly where/how they are going to recharge,

Which he did - he knew that he could recharge at my place when he got
here.

when half the available energy is used on a journey, they turn round
and go home.

So he runs out a few mile from home, wastes a few hours and does not get
where he wanted to go?

Yup, I can see that would make perfect sense to someone like you.

No-one would set out on such a journey anyway without pre-checks.

What would you suggest, a survey of all the drivers likely to be using
the same road to check if they are planning on having an accident?

I always check distances on Google Maps for a new destination and try
to assess any hills by looking at a map.

Do you have the comprehension skills of a spanner? (no need to answer
that, we know the answer).

He was coming here. The clue in the description was "friend" - you could
perhaps infer from that, he has been here before!

The energy content/computer range calculation devices on electric cars
are inaccurate.
Too many assumptions are made.
So the "four miles" is also cobblers.

Yup, it might have only be 1 or it might have been ten.

(he also has a (non Nissan approved) smartphone app that lets him
interrogate all kinds of detail from the car that it won't tell you via
its instrumentation, such as the actual battery state and the capacity
remaining)

All this means that you have to keep some "range" in hand when
assessing any extreme range journey.

40 miles? Can I have a pint of whatever you are on harry?

And charging in the car park at Lakeside now costs my mate with the
leaf
£12, that's not far cheaper than petrol (if at all).


One of the reasons I charge at home.
They were all free or cheap card operated only a couple of years back.
But that was always a dodgy inducement.

Bait and switch, as I said.

In Summer I charge on free electricity.

Its not free - it cost you a significant capital cost to be able to
collect this "free" electricity.

It's free. I get paid for it whether I use it myself or not.

Its free in the same way the gas I get from EDF is free - it just comes
out of a hole in the ground.



It's a technical impossibility to determine the exact amount of energy
remaining in a battery.
It's assessed indirectly by integrating voltage, current and time. Various
assumptions are made.
Which are often wrong.

But better than nothing in the situation being discussed.

So any stupid "apps" are of no benefit at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

They can tell you where the nearest charge point is.
But not whether it's in use, working or vandalised.
I can see you are very credulous. Bamboozled by the sales bull****.

Nobody uses the heater on an electric car on an extreme range journey.

It wasnt an extreme range journey.

If it's that cold, the battery performance will be affected as well.