In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
If you must mount it on the back, then a batten on to the wall
wouldn't be too difficult?

But you also need a fing big hole to get the plug through into the
cupboard. OK you can cut the supplied, moulded on jobbie off
(invalidating any guarantee?) and thread the cable througha small
hole. But if you need to move the machine out further than the length
of cable you have to take the plug off...

Well, you've presumably already got holes for the hoses?

Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug) all
these appliances that you're going to provide this grid switch
arrangement for?

Yes, young children, they fiddle. Even though ours know not to fiddle
they occasionally forget. The washing machine is always switched off
at the (above worktop) socket when not in use.

Right. So you do have a good reason for them. But be quick in fitting them
or the kids will be big enough to reach over the worktop...

--
*Many people quit looking for work when they find a job *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
IMM wrote:
So if the fuse blows you have to drag out an integrated appliance.

Wouldn't you anyway to fix the fault that caused the fuse to blow?

A fuse blowing for no reason is so rare as to be ignored in planning
terms.

If it is fitted correctly the socket should be accessible.

If you're going to the lengths of installing dedicated switches for
appliances why not install new sockets in sensible positions too?


If sockets are installed into cupboards it means the socket is not
accessible (unless the cupboard has little in it) and also means ugly great
holes in the side to allow a 13 amp plug to pass through. If you're going to
the bother of cutting the socket off to feed the wire through a small hole
you might as well fit a connection unit someplace....

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
snip

I particularly hate those time delay door opening switches. I simply can't
see the point of them. OK, so being locked when turned on, maybe. But
having
to wait 3 minutes for no discernable purpose, I cannot fathom. I
frequently
disconnect the lock when the machine gets well past warrantee.


It's called forced thinking time for dossey house wives, all very un PC
though... !

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
If you must mount it on the back, then a batten on to the wall
wouldn't be too difficult?

But you also need a fing big hole to get the plug through into the
cupboard. OK you can cut the supplied, moulded on jobbie off
(invalidating any guarantee?) and thread the cable througha small
hole. But if you need to move the machine out further than the length
of cable you have to take the plug off...

Well, you've presumably already got holes for the hoses?


What hoses ? My fridge & freezer doesn't need a water supply, nor are they
gas appliances !.... :~)

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

Well, you've presumably already got holes for the hoses?

But they have hoses through them and the hole for a washing machine
connector won't take a 13A plug...

In the "new kitchen" I suspect I'll fit one set of water isolator
valves rather than individual ones per outlet.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:17:36 -0000, Jerry. wrote:

What hoses ? My fridge & freezer doesn't need a water supply, nor
are they gas appliances !.... :~)

Ah but they won't be on the gridswitch supply or kitchen ring but a
separate radial from another CU with a transfer switch on it's
input... Well in the really big scheme of things they would be, in the
shorter term it is more likely to be a radial pre the main CUs RCD
with a transfer switch on it's input.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
If sockets are installed into cupboards it means the socket is not
accessible (unless the cupboard has little in it) and also means ugly
great holes in the side to allow a 13 amp plug to pass through.

There'll be great ugly holes for the water and waste pipes too...

--
*All generalizations are false.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
Well, you've presumably already got holes for the hoses?


What hoses ? My fridge & freezer doesn't need a water supply, nor are
they gas appliances !.... :~)

You regularly switch off your fridge and freezer? How quaint.

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:
snip
Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug)

snip


Thank you, thank you, thank you, for not saying "Plug out"

Such an ugly phrase, and it is becoming so popular amongst the great
unwashed (IMHO)


Paul Mc Cann

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
If sockets are installed into cupboards it means the socket is not
accessible (unless the cupboard has little in it) and also means ugly
great holes in the side to allow a 13 amp plug to pass through.

There'll be great ugly holes for the water and waste pipes too...


Not if correctly installed, there will be a 22mm hole for a 20mm pipe and
not a whacking great 50mm hole for a 10mm pipe IYSWIM !...

Best Regards to you Dave.

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
Well, you've presumably already got holes for the hoses?


What hoses ? My fridge & freezer doesn't need a water supply, nor are
they gas appliances !.... :~)

You regularly switch off your fridge and freezer? How quaint.


Yes, when they need defrosting !
OK it's not regularly I'll grant you, but not having to empty a cupboard to
unplug is worth a little more work when installing new wiring when refitting
a kitchen IMO.

In article ,
Paul Mc Cann wrote:
Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for not saying "Plug out"

Such an ugly phrase, and it is becoming so popular amongst the great
unwashed (IMHO)

I wouldn't as it refers to a specific operation involving jackfields and
cross normalling.

At least three people here will know what I'm on about. ;-)

--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
Not if correctly installed, there will be a 22mm hole for a 20mm pipe and
not a whacking great 50mm hole for a 10mm pipe IYSWIM !...

If you combine the holes for the waste and fill, you should be able to get
the mains plug through that first.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Jerry. wrote:
You regularly switch off your fridge and freezer? How quaint.


Yes, when they need defrosting !

What's wrong with simply turning down the thermostat on the fridge?

I've not got a built in freezer, so I don't know if they can be defrosted
like this.

OK it's not regularly I'll grant you, but not having to empty a cupboard
to unplug is worth a little more work when installing new wiring when
refitting a kitchen IMO.

You could fit the socket at the top of the cupboard - away from possible
water leaks?

It's just that separate switches and fuses - especially if brought
together on a central panel of what - four minimum - would not be any
closer for some than opening the cupboard alongside and unplugging the
appliance.

And would serve no purpose for most.

Sorry to go on, but I remember doing just this on one installation years
ago using something like an 18 gang panel for switches fuses and neons.
And on going back some years later for a few modifications because of a
couple of replacement appliances, it was obvious the switches were never,
in fact used.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:02:23 +0000, Paul Mc Cann
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:33:43 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman
wrote:
snip
Do you at the minute switch off *at the socket* (or unplug)

snip


Thank you, thank you, thank you, for not saying "Plug out"

Such an ugly phrase, and it is becoming so popular amongst the great
unwashed (IMHO)


Paul Mc Cann

Is this like the American use of phrases like "deplaning momentarily"
when you wish they'd hurry up and open the door.?





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:51:12 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

There'll be great ugly holes for the water and waste pipes too..

Only under the sink. B-)

And you don't need the hole for those to be any more tha clearance for
the pipe. It's the gert big 13A plug on the end of an appliance cable
that makes the hole so much bigger.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 12:09:00 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

If you combine the holes for the waste and fill, you should be able
to get the mains plug through that first.

OK and when you want to get the mains plug back out again with all the
plumbing in place... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:54:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

I wouldn't as it refers to a specific operation involving jackfields
and cross normalling.

At least three people here will know what I'm on about. ;-)

People separated by a common language? "plug out" and "cross
normalling" must be an ITV terms for the BBC's "jack out" and either
"double innered" or "normalled" depending on how things are actually
wired.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
There'll be great ugly holes for the water and waste pipes too..

Only under the sink. B-)

And you don't need the hole for those to be any more tha clearance for
the pipe. It's the gert big 13A plug on the end of an appliance cable
that makes the hole so much bigger.

Hoses usually have fittings which are larger than the hose itself, so will
never be a perfect fit. If you really want this you'd have to make some
form of split plinth to fit round them after inserting. So you might as
well make the hole big enough for a 13 amp plug...

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
If you combine the holes for the waste and fill, you should be able to
get the mains plug through that first.

OK and when you want to get the mains plug back out again with all the
plumbing in place... B-)

This could run and run...

I'm assuming you're not stupid enough to have the stopcock behind the
machine, so the filling hose will come into an adjacent cupboard - as will
probably the waste. My machine hasn't room for them behind it anyway. So
put the socket near them, but away from any possibility of getting soaked.
The mains cable is always longer than the hoses.

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
People separated by a common language? "plug out" and "cross
normalling" must be an ITV terms for the BBC's "jack out" and either
"double innered" or "normalled" depending on how things are actually
wired.

Cross normalling is slightly more descriptive to an operator than double
innered which is the (BBC) engineering term. But it is an ITV term. And
you tend to refer to plugging up a jackfield rather than jacking it up
which sounds slightly rude.

--
*I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 20:37:06 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

Cross normalling is slightly more descriptive to an operator than
double innered which is the (BBC) engineering term. But it is an ITV
term.

But "double innered" is not the same a "normalled", I can see that is
slightly simpler to understand though. Double innering needs two plugs
to be inserted to isolate the source and destination, you need to
"jack out" the unwanted inner.

Normalling is broken with just one plug.

Gawd this is ancient stuff I had to draw it out, don't often see
double innered stuff these days or listen/source/destination (or
something like that). These days why use 2 or 3 sockets when one will
do...

And you tend to refer to plugging up a jackfield rather than jacking
it up which sounds slightly rude.

B-) Plugging up yes, but you "jack out" double innering.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Cross normalling is slightly more descriptive to an operator than
double innered which is the (BBC) engineering term. But it is an ITV
term.

But "double innered" is not the same a "normalled", I can see that is
slightly simpler to understand though. Double innering needs two plugs
to be inserted to isolate the source and destination, you need to
"jack out" the unwanted inner.

Cross normalled is the same as double innered - ie two jacks which are
both listens until both are used when they both become break jacks. At one
time, you'd have a two listens and two breaks. With cross normalled, it
allows you to isolate both source and destination with two less jacks for
almost all applications.

Normalling is broken with just one plug.

Yup.

Gawd this is ancient stuff I had to draw it out, don't often see
double innered stuff these days or listen/source/destination (or
something like that). These days why use 2 or 3 sockets when one will
do...

Still in use, though. Not everything is digital.

And you tend to refer to plugging up a jackfield rather than jacking
it up which sounds slightly rude.

B-) Plugging up yes, but you "jack out" double innering.

Either would do.

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Jerry." wrote in message ...

No, but it sounds like you are trying to ! Andy has interpreted the
regs, correctly AIUI, how can you argue with the
interpretation [...]

At this point I just give up. The words "horse", "dead" and "flogging" come
to mind.

--
Andy

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...

And 6mm from the gridswitch to the sockets? If you've dropped to
2.5mm from the gridswitch to socket that section is not properly
protected by the 32A breaker...

Wrong. 2.5mm^2 will usually be fine for the socket runs. Overload
protection is provided by the plug-top fuses, s/c fault protection by the
fuse or MCB in the consumer unit. Strictly speaking the designer should
check that disconnection time and cable thermal protection requirements are
met, but, with MCB protection and normal circuit lengths of a few metres
from the split, there won't be a problem. This combination of device rating
and cable size is no different to that of the unfused spur taken from a 32 A
ring circuit.

In fact 1.5mm^2 would probably be OK for the socket runs in most cases, but
would certainly need to be checked by calculation. Sticking to the
conventional 2.5mm^2 gives a degree of belt'n'braces safety.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"Jerry." wrote in message ...

No, but it sounds like you are trying to ! Andy has interpreted the
regs, correctly AIUI, how can you argue with the
interpretation [...]

At this point I just give up. The words "horse", "dead" and "flogging"
come
to mind.

I know how you feel. The regs are at time very non-specific.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:31:29 -0000, Andy Wade wrote:

Overload protection is provided by the plug-top fuses, ...

And if the overload is pre the plug?

This combination of device rating and cable size is no different to
that of the unfused spur taken from a 32 A ring circuit.

True enough, just doesn't "feel" right. Like I said I haven't thought
that hard about the practical requirements of installation only the I
want this feature.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
. 1...

And if the overload is pre the plug?

That can't happen - the branch is feeding one socket only. (Unless you
connect three 3 kW fires through an ancient unfused 3-way adaptor...)

True enough, just doesn't "feel" right.

Consider the fact that for all sizes of T&E cable except 1.0 mm^2, the earth
conductor can be 'undersized' relative to the fuse rating. This is OK and
it is known, by design, that in the event of an earth fault the fuse will
blow before the earth wire in the cable overheats. The situation is the
same with an 'undersized cable' where overload protection is either not
required, or is provided downstream.

It's important to distinguish between 'faults' - i.e short-circuits caused
by someone cutting through a cable, or whatever - and 'overloads' where the
design load is exceeded - too much equipment connected, relative to the
design expectations.

Fault and earth fault protection is always required. Overload protection is
required in general, but can be omitted where the characteristics of the
load are such that overloading just can't happen. For example, a circuit
feeding a single heating appliance is designed for the maximum loading of
the appliance and doesn't need overload protection. Overload protection can
also be separate from the fault protection and can be downstream, as in this
case. The industrial motor circuit is another common example. The fuses in
the dis-board only provide fault protection for the wiring; overload
protection comes from an 'overload relay' in the motor starter.

--
Andy

In the "new kitchen" I suspect I'll fit one set of water isolator
valves rather than individual ones per outlet.

Does that mean when the dishwasher has to be sent back for repair, you can't
use the washing machine because you can't turn off the hose individually?

Christian.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:42:12 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

In the "new kitchen" I suspect I'll fit one set of water isolator
valves rather than individual ones per outlet.

Does that mean when the dishwasher has to be sent back for repair,
you can't use the washing machine because you can't turn off the
hose individually?

Can you get washing machine conectors without a valve built in? I was
really thinking of taps etc...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Can you get washing machine conectors without a valve built in? I
was really thinking of taps etc...

In any case, the same point still stands. You may wish to isolate one outlet
until the opportunity arises to complete a repair. If you have a badly
leaking tap that requires a 'O' ring to be ordered in, would you want the
entire kitchen isolated until you can get round to ordering and fitting it?

As isolating valves cost 49p at screwfix and take seconds to fix, why not
bother installing them?

Christian.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:19:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:42:12 -0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

In the "new kitchen" I suspect I'll fit one set of water isolator
valves rather than individual ones per outlet.

Does that mean when the dishwasher has to be sent back for repair,
you can't use the washing machine because you can't turn off the
hose individually?

Can you get washing machine conectors without a valve built in? I was
really thinking of taps etc...

15mm x 3/4" BSP male, BES 9011

should be it

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl