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On 20/06/16 18:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 19-Jun-16 10:20 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
....
If it's Leave and he tries to ignore it, he'll be removed. There's
easily enough MPs who wouldn't accept that who will force a
leadership
election.

I think ignoring the vote would be the least likely of the options
open
to him. What if he simply went ahead and introduced the legislation
needed to repeal the 1972 Act and, as is very possible, it gets voted
down in parliament? He would have done exactly what the referendum
required.


But not what the electorate wanted him to.

And that is where we get into interesting territory.

How many tories would leave and join UKIP, still as MPs?

None IMO, because UKIP would cease to exist if Britain
leaves the EU, it would have no purpose at all and would
lose all the funding it gets by having so many MEPs.



you seem to have missed that the premise is "we vote Leave and HMG
ignores that votes and keeps us in"

In that circumstance the UKIP would still be needed and probably see its
poll rating soar

But if there were enough deserters from the Tories, that would
see Britain leave the EU and UKIP cease to exist overnight.

I don't get either of those claims.

1) If a certain number of Tories deserted because of this HMG would still
vote "not to leave" because all of the Labour party would line up behind
that view.

Of course the Labour party wouldn't line up behind Cameroon on other issues
and the country would probably have a government that couldn't govern (even
if replaced by one of a different colour), but that's another matter

2) Where are these deserting MPs going to go except join UKIP? If that
happens surely UKIP still exists

tim

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On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say* they
dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you how
selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to their own
personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you have to
lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories

Yes.

and thus likely to be invited

The Labour ones get invited by Blair and Brown etc.

so that's 325 in the queue for performing the arse licking.

Nope. All 650 of them in fact.

Out out that there are approx 120 government positions on offer

In fact there are **** all of them that are anything like a gravy train.

so any one MP has a 35% chance of getting one,

Like hell they have with any that are anything like a real gravy train.

and that's before you deduct all of the has-beens who had their go in an
earlier administration and "failed".

That isn't negligible,

Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

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On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say* they
dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you how
selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to their own
personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you have
to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

tim

In article , tim...
writes

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...
On 20/06/16 18:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 19-Jun-16 10:20 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
....
If it's Leave and he tries to ignore it, he'll be removed. There's
easily enough MPs who wouldn't accept that who will force a
leadership
election.

I think ignoring the vote would be the least likely of the
options open
to him. What if he simply went ahead and introduced the legislation
needed to repeal the 1972 Act and, as is very possible, it gets voted
down in parliament? He would have done exactly what the referendum
required.


But not what the electorate wanted him to.

And that is where we get into interesting territory.

How many tories would leave and join UKIP, still as MPs?

None IMO, because UKIP would cease to exist if Britain
leaves the EU, it would have no purpose at all and would
lose all the funding it gets by having so many MEPs.



you seem to have missed that the premise is "we vote Leave and HMG
ignores that votes and keeps us in"

In that circumstance the UKIP would still be needed and probably see
its poll rating soar

But if there were enough deserters from the Tories, that would
see Britain leave the EU and UKIP cease to exist overnight.

I don't get either of those claims.

1) If a certain number of Tories deserted because of this HMG would
still vote "not to leave" because all of the Labour party would line up
behind that view.

Of course the Labour party wouldn't line up behind Cameroon on other
issues and the country would probably have a government that couldn't
govern (even if replaced by one of a different colour), but that's
another matter

2) Where are these deserting MPs going to go except join UKIP? If that
happens surely UKIP still exists

tim

There's a list of pro-remain MPs in a full page ad in the DT today.
--
bert

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On 20/06/16 18:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 19-Jun-16 10:20 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
....
If it's Leave and he tries to ignore it, he'll be removed. There's
easily enough MPs who wouldn't accept that who will force a
leadership
election.

I think ignoring the vote would be the least likely of the options
open
to him. What if he simply went ahead and introduced the legislation
needed to repeal the 1972 Act and, as is very possible, it gets voted
down in parliament? He would have done exactly what the referendum
required.


But not what the electorate wanted him to.

And that is where we get into interesting territory.

How many tories would leave and join UKIP, still as MPs?

None IMO, because UKIP would cease to exist if Britain
leaves the EU, it would have no purpose at all and would
lose all the funding it gets by having so many MEPs.



you seem to have missed that the premise is "we vote Leave and HMG
ignores that votes and keeps us in"

In that circumstance the UKIP would still be needed and probably see its
poll rating soar

But if there were enough deserters from the Tories, that would
see Britain leave the EU and UKIP cease to exist overnight.

I don't get either of those claims.

1) If a certain number of Tories deserted because of this HMG would still
vote "not to leave" because all of the Labour party would line up behind
that view.

I just dont believe that that would happen if the referendum
did produce a substantial majority in favour of leaving. Or even
with just a narrow majority either.

Of course the Labour party wouldn't line up behind Cameroon on other
issues and the country would probably have a government that couldn't
govern (even if replaced by one of a different colour), but that's another
matter

Yes.

2) Where are these deserting MPs going to go except join UKIP?

They wouldnt be stupid enough to join UKIP given
that it would cease to exist if Britain did leave the EU.

If that happens surely UKIP still exists

Not when Britain leaves the EU, and so they lose all their funding from
the EP in what the MEPs get to suck out of the trough in Strasburg etc
and the ONLY issue UKIP has ever had is Britain leaving the EU which
has just been achieved.

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On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say* they
dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you how
selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to their
own personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you have
to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

Yes you were, it is still in the quoting above.

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

We can see from the quoting above that you never said anything about that.

On Tuesday, 21 June 2016 17:02:11 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 21 June 2016 12:54:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:



You don't have to lick arse, money works too, so does status and power.

The EU couldn't(or didn't want to, or liked the idea of the tax and
prestige generated) see the fiddles going on with the world cup.

what's that got to do with back-bench MPs seeking to get cabinet jobs?

if you can't see that a very rich person in a very rich country and that country wins a vote that makes little sense such as playing football in a very hot country in the summer (42C+), and that same person has brought lots of high end properties in london too some of us do wonder.

Of course some don't ever think.


(or are you suggesting that the MPs have been bribed to campaign for remain
by being offered world cup tickets?)

That's a possibility I hadn;t thought about.
Perhaps you're suggesting that an estate agent has been promised tickets as a thank you for their services.
Estate agents and polititions aren't crimminals you know. cough



tim

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
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On 20/06/16 18:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 19-Jun-16 10:20 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
....
If it's Leave and he tries to ignore it, he'll be removed. There's
easily enough MPs who wouldn't accept that who will force a
leadership
election.

I think ignoring the vote would be the least likely of the options
open
to him. What if he simply went ahead and introduced the legislation
needed to repeal the 1972 Act and, as is very possible, it gets
voted
down in parliament? He would have done exactly what the referendum
required.


But not what the electorate wanted him to.

And that is where we get into interesting territory.

How many tories would leave and join UKIP, still as MPs?

None IMO, because UKIP would cease to exist if Britain
leaves the EU, it would have no purpose at all and would
lose all the funding it gets by having so many MEPs.



you seem to have missed that the premise is "we vote Leave and HMG
ignores that votes and keeps us in"

In that circumstance the UKIP would still be needed and probably see
its poll rating soar

But if there were enough deserters from the Tories, that would
see Britain leave the EU and UKIP cease to exist overnight.

I don't get either of those claims.

1) If a certain number of Tories deserted because of this HMG would still
vote "not to leave" because all of the Labour party would line up behind
that view.

I just dont believe that that would happen if the referendum
did produce a substantial majority in favour of leaving. Or even
with just a narrow majority either.

I didn't say that I did either

but the conversation is based upon that premise.

If you think the scenario is too fictional to be possible, why did you
contribute in the first place?

Of course the Labour party wouldn't line up behind Cameroon on other
issues and the country would probably have a government that couldn't
govern (even if replaced by one of a different colour), but that's
another matter

Yes.

2) Where are these deserting MPs going to go except join UKIP?

They wouldnt be stupid enough to join UKIP given
that it would cease to exist if Britain did leave the EU.

but the premise is that we haven't yet left.

UKIP will still be needed to make sure that the pigs with their snouts in
the trough play fair until we do


If that happens surely UKIP still exists

Not when Britain leaves the EU, and so they lose all their funding from
the EP

That is their problem

TBH, if remain wins I doubt that UKIP will be short of funding for the next
few years

tim

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
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On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say* they
dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you how
selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to their
own personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you have
to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only
gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

Yes you were, it is still in the quoting above.

that's just the hang over from the original mistake

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

We can see from the quoting above that you never said anything about that.

I was always taking about achieving ministerial positions, whatever language
was used

In article ,
tim... wrote:
UKIP will still be needed to make sure that the pigs with their snouts
in the trough play fair until we do

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up. UKIP full super heroes
whose only purpose is to save the planet.
When most know they are mainly failed politicians who couldn't make it in
a one party state.

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say*
they dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you
how selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to
their own personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you
have to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only
gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

Yes you were, it is still in the quoting above.

that's just the hang over from the original mistake

There is no original mistake.

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

We can see from the quoting above that you never said anything about
that.

I was always taking about achieving ministerial positions,

And like I said, there are **** all of those for the 650 MPs.

whatever language was used

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say*
they dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you
how selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to
their own personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you
have to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only
gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

Yes you were, it is still in the quoting above.

that's just the hang over from the original mistake

There is no original mistake.

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

We can see from the quoting above that you never said anything about
that.

I was always taking about achieving ministerial positions,

And like I said, there are **** all of those for the 650 MPs.

To win the race you first have to get to the starting line

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
UKIP will still be needed to make sure that the pigs with their snouts
in the trough play fair until we do

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up. UKIP full super heroes
whose only purpose is to save the planet.
When most know they are mainly failed politicians who couldn't make it in
a one party state.


I not suggesting that they would have any administrative input

just make a lot of noise in the media

tim

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
message ...
On 19/06/16 23:01, jjjuu78 wrote:
Not when there is an overwhelming majority
of Tory MPs who dont want Britain to leave.

You have no evidence of that.

We will if the leave vote prevails.

There is only an overwhelming majority of Tory MPs who *say*
they dont want Britain to leave.

There is no point in them lying about that.

If this campaign has done anything, it should have showed you
how selfish and unprincipled politicians are when it comes to
their own personal gravy trains*.

Very few of them have any gravy train involved with the EU.

not from the EU

from the "boss" whose arse they licked

Very few MPs have any gravy train from any boss.

The only one they have is the most basic Westminster one.

who suggested otherwise

The point is, if you want to rise in the ranks of government you
have to lick the boss' arse

But with the immense numbers of MPs, close to unique in the entire
world, that is the inevitable result for almost all MPs. The only
gravy
train they will ever see is the most basic Westminster one.

Whilst there might be 650 MP only half of them will be Tories



Its **** all MPs with any real gravy train apart
from the most basic one that all MPs have.

we aren't talking about being in line for the gray train

Yes you were, it is still in the quoting above.

that's just the hang over from the original mistake

There is no original mistake.

we are talking about being in line for becoming "important"

We can see from the quoting above that you never said anything about
that.

I was always taking about achieving ministerial positions,

And like I said, there are **** all of those for the 650 MPs.

To win the race you first have to get to the starting line

There is no race and no starting line.

On 23/06/16 10:51, tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
UKIP will still be needed to make sure that the pigs with their snouts
in the trough play fair until we do

You really couldn't make this sort of stuff up. UKIP full super heroes
whose only purpose is to save the planet.
When most know they are mainly failed politicians who couldn't make it in
a one party state.


I not suggesting that they would have any administrative input

just make a lot of noise in the media


Exactly. Nigel Farage has single-handedly made more people aware of the
problems of the EU than anyone else, backed by members of the old
Referendum party, the sole purpose has been to get the UK out of the EU
because he sees it as an utter disaster.

If that means forming a political party with a sole aim, so be it.

But UKIPS purpose vanishes once we are *actually out*. Until then its
there to make sure we leave.

That it has acquired considerable popular support, and has achieved
decent penetration in local elections and even an MP, is an unexpected
bonus.

UKIP doesn't actually know what to do about that. Its found itself
representing other things than mere European exit, mostly around the
idea that the current political class in the UK is effete and corrupt,
as well as those in the EU.

The section of the electorate that feels that, wont go away, and if UKIP
doesn't represent them someone else will.

NO other political party however is in a position to do that.

So my guess is that if we do exit, in two years time or less UKIP will
change its name, its leader, and announce itself as the libertarian
party of the United Kingdom.

WE have a political system with a huge amount of inertia built in.
Demand for change needs to be very great before an establishment is
toppled. Thats good for stability, but bad for ability to react to rapid
changes in the world.

No one in their right minds would say that the world isn't changing
rapidly however.

My point is that we need new institutions, new parties and new political
styles to meet the new challenges,.

If nothing else,. people are bored with the same old same old, and
disturbed by its utter inability to address serious and fundamental and
existential issues of Western civilisation.


UKIP doesn't have the answers, but it has at least attracted a core of
bright people with first class degrees from all walks of life, who
understand the questions.


There is a nucleus of a party of real competence and merit there, once
the UK is free to practice its politics, and equally Nigel will be
sacrificed on the alter of political expediency, or relegated to Orator
in Chief, once his job is done.

So UKIP the name may go, and Nigel, but what UKIP has come to represent
politically, will live on, because no other party is representing that
constituency.





tim





--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus