We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.

Cheers

Dave R

On 02/12/15 06:58, David wrote:
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

Rings a bell. You're a good landlord aren't you

I *think* CO may only be needed if you have gas/solid fuel appliances.

Aico do quite a nice set of 10 year LiIon radio linked alarms. I
*beleive* these are approved to meet this legislation. Cost more, but
the fitting is trivial.

Have a look at the Aico site:

http://www.aico.co.uk/

There's a landlord's section that should clear up your obligations.


(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

Not heard of that one!

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.

Cheers

Dave R

On Wednesday, 2 December 2015 06:58:34 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.
Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:
(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

Highly sensible even if not specifically required.

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

No you don't, you have to do a risk assessment.

http://www.rics.org/uk/news/news-ins...nella-testing/

There is a legal duty for landlords to assess and control the risk of exposure to legionella bacteria, but Health and Safety law does not require landlords to produce or obtain, nor does HSE recognise, a 'Legionnaires testing certificate'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/myth-bust...legionella.htm

Normally there is no reason why the landlord should not carry out this risk assessment himself/herself so long as they are competent. Usually there will be no need to employ a consultant. The assessment should be a straight forward simple exercise in ordinary domestic premises.
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guide..._disease.shtml

links from the HSE page should be sufficient for you to do your own assessment.

Owain

On Wednesday, 2 December 2015 08:11:37 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 2 December 2015 06:58:34 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:

We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.
Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:
(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

CO only required if solid fuel in use


(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

No you don't, you have to do a risk assessment.

http://www.rics.org/uk/news/news-ins...nella-testing/

There is a legal duty for landlords to assess and control the risk of exposure to legionella bacteria, but Health and Safety law does not require landlords to produce or obtain, nor does HSE recognise, a 'Legionnaires testing certificate'.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/myth-bust...legionella.htm

Normally there is no reason why the landlord should not carry out this risk assessment himself/herself so long as they are competent. Usually there will be no need to employ a consultant. The assessment should be a straight forward simple exercise in ordinary domestic premises.
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guide..._disease.shtml

links from the HSE page should be sufficient for you to do your own assessment.

Owain

wot e said

What he didn't say is that letting agents are a fool's choice.


NT

The latter one I know is the case in some countries, but not sure about
here. Places like tanks, air conditioning systems and shower heaeds.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/15 06:58, David wrote:
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

Rings a bell. You're a good landlord aren't you

I *think* CO may only be needed if you have gas/solid fuel appliances.

Aico do quite a nice set of 10 year LiIon radio linked alarms. I *beleive*
these are approved to meet this legislation. Cost more, but the fitting is
trivial.

Have a look at the Aico site:

http://www.aico.co.uk/

There's a landlord's section that should clear up your obligations.


(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

Not heard of that one!

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set
of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.

Cheers

Dave R

"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

--
Adam

On 02 Dec 2015, Tim Watts grunted:

On 02/12/15 06:58, David wrote:
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

Rings a bell. You're a good landlord aren't you

I *think* CO may only be needed if you have gas/solid fuel appliances.

Smoke alarms are now required on all floors of any rented property; CO
alarms are only required if there's a solid fuel appliance.

I had a landlord's gas certificate done a few months ago, and was
'surprised' to find on my bill that the plumbers had installed two CO
alarms in the property (which has no solid fuel) without so much as a by
your leave.

I queried it, and predictably was advised that it was 'the law' now and
they were just keeping me within it. I in turn advised them that (a) it
was NOT 'the law'; (b) it would NOT be the law even in October when the
legislation was due to change; and (c) WTF were they thinking of, not
asking me first anyway (I do anything maintenance except gas work myself).
They offered to go round and remove the alarms, but obviously that was a
non-starter - how would that look to my tenants? Scheisters.

(BTW I was actually intending to install one CO alarm imminently anyway,
but that Wasn't The Point...!)


--
David

"Jonno" wrote in message
...
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set
of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?




No.

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?

--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"Jonno" wrote in message
...
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real
set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?




No.

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?

No, some have died.

On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year, but
they don't break that down by cause.

I think it's because all/most modern gas applicances do/should
vent their wastes to the outside not into the room they are in.
Obvs a gas cooker doesn't do that.

jgh

On 02/12/2015 20:09, Jonno wrote:
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?

Probably because there is already a requirement for annual inspection
and certification of all gas appliances anyway, and part of that
inspection will test for CO leakage.

CO production from solid fuel appliances is easy enough to test for, but
very hard to extrapolate that test result forward since there are so
many variables at play. So continuous monitoring makes more sense.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year, but
they don't break that down by cause.



Rhetorical question????

Corgi and Gas Safe fitters have never killed anyone due to **** work on a
gas burning appliance!


--
Adam

On 02/12/2015 20:09, Jonno wrote:
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?


In a government guidance booklet http://preview.tinyurl.com/p3onhqj
the following wordy-bollox are used:

"9. Does a carbon monoxide alarm need to be installed in
rooms with gas or oil appliances?

No. Carbon monoxide alarms will only be required in rooms containing a
solid fuel burning appliance (i.e. rooms containing an open fire, log
burning stove, etc.).
However, as gas appliances can emit carbon monoxide, we would expect and
encourage reputable landlords to ensure that working carbon monoxide
alarms are installed in rooms with these."

Still not clear why not.

On 02/12/2015 19:15, Lobster wrote:
On 02 Dec 2015, Tim Watts grunted:

On 02/12/15 06:58, David wrote:
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

Rings a bell. You're a good landlord aren't you

I *think* CO may only be needed if you have gas/solid fuel appliances.

Smoke alarms are now required on all floors of any rented property; CO
alarms are only required if there's a solid fuel appliance.

I had a landlord's gas certificate done a few months ago, and was
'surprised' to find on my bill that the plumbers had installed two CO
alarms in the property (which has no solid fuel) without so much as a by
your leave.

I queried it, and predictably was advised that it was 'the law' now and
they were just keeping me within it. I in turn advised them that (a) it
was NOT 'the law'; (b) it would NOT be the law even in October when the
legislation was due to change; and (c) WTF were they thinking of, not
asking me first anyway (I do anything maintenance except gas work myself).
They offered to go round and remove the alarms, but obviously that was a
non-starter - how would that look to my tenants? Scheisters.

(BTW I was actually intending to install one CO alarm imminently anyway,
but that Wasn't The Point...!)


I hope you didn't pay for them, I would have said you can remove them
provided you make good the holes/decoration, otherwise they stay FOC.

Peter

Just about got gassed years ago, flat upstairs had gas fitters in , they wanted toc check the flue in our flat for some reason.

Came in pulled out gas fire , had a poke at it , said just going to van, came back with a pile of `do not use` red stickers and some tape.

Cracked heat exchanger apparently, wouldn`t have been liable to survive the winter , lucky escape.

CO detsctor , dosen`t sound expensive.

nemo wrote:

Still not clear why not.

In short, cost-effectivenes. That's the same approach used by eg NICE
when deciding which drugs should be paid for by the NHS or DfT when
deciding road improvements. Both have to put a price on a life. So
things could change with new evidence.

Others take the view that "no price is too high to save the life of a
child". (Or they do when they think only some other buggers will pay.)

Devolved administrations may take a different view. Eg in NI a CO
detector is now required by building regs for all homes where a new or
replacement solid fuel or gas appliance is fitted - but excluding
cookers/hobs/ovens/grills which as others have said are low risk. Not
many people sleep in their kitchen.

Oh, and watch figures for accidental CO deaths in homes (like the 50 a
year quoted upthread) as they often include the effects of the home
catching fire. As the impact assessment for the regulations said:

"The Office for National Statistics publishes data on the number of
deaths occurring due to the toxic effect of Carbon monoxide. In 2007,
there were 251 deaths due to Carbon monoxide poisoning in all buildings
in England and Wales, 79 of which were unintentional, and 35 of which
occurred due to exposure to gases and vapours in the home, from all fuel
types. 31 of these were due to Carbon monoxide produced during
uncontrolled building fires – and arguably may have been better warned
by the installation of a smoke alarm. Again, no breakdown of these
numbers by fuel type is possible."

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 03/12/2015 07:04, Jonno wrote:
ARW scribbled


"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year, but
they don't break that down by cause.



Rhetorical question????

Corgi and Gas Safe fitters have never killed anyone due to **** work on a
gas burning appliance!


This is a law aimed at landlords. Far too many of them don't have
annual checks by accredited inspectors. It should be used as a
sledgehammer to crack a nut for those ****ers who put their tenants into
unnecessary danger.

If they are already ignoring their statutory duty to carry out gas
safety checks, what makes you think they will be any more likely to
comply with this additional legislation?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/12/2015 07:00, Jonno wrote:
ARW scribbled


"Jonno" wrote in message
...
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease.

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set
of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?




No.

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


You're right. With only half a dozen dead in a 'good' year, we've got
nothing to worry about.

You don't do irony do you? ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/12/2015 21:53, ARW wrote:
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year,
but they don't break that down by cause.



Rhetorical question????

For some reason, the irony totally went past me last night. Are solid
fuel fireplaces subject to any sort of checks, like the gas certificates
landlords get every year?





Corgi and Gas Safe fitters have never killed anyone due to **** work on a
gas burning appliance!

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 21:53, ARW wrote:
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year,
but they don't break that down by cause.



Rhetorical question????

For some reason, the irony totally went past me last night.

It happens:-)

Are solid fuel fireplaces subject to any sort of checks, like the gas
certificates landlords get every year?


Good question.

Not that I know of - others of course may know better.



--
Adam

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 19:15, Lobster wrote:

(BTW I was actually intending to install one CO alarm imminently anyway,
but that Wasn't The Point...!)


I hope you didn't pay for them, I would have said you can remove them
provided you make good the holes/decoration, otherwise they stay FOC.



+1

--
Adam

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 8:36:31 PM UTC, ARW wrote:
"Jonno" wrote in message
...
ARW scribbled


"David" wrote in message
...
We have a rental property which is managed by an agent.

Latest missive says that, due to recent legislation:

(1) We have to fit suitable smoke and CO alarms (smoke upstairs and
downstairs).

(2) We have to have an annual check for risk of legionnaires disease..

The cost isn't high but I thought I would check that this is a real set
of
new legislation and not just a small money spinner.



Smoke alarms are legal requirement as from 1st October this year. CO
detector are required if there are solid fuel burning appliances.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._REV ISED.pdf

Do you have any idea why isn't it a requirement for a CO detector to be
installed when there are gas burning appliances?




No.

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?

--
Adam

Just not true. Dozens of CO poisonings happen each year quite a few are fatal.
This figure is not getting better as older an inherently less safe designs are replace by newer and safer appliances. I suspect this is in part due to the fact that houses are getting less draughty.

The reason AIUI for not requiring CO alarms where there are gas appliances even open flued ones is that an alarm is not a substitute for regular servicing & inspection. There is already legislation in place to require servicing, inspect/test and certification of gas to happen in rented accommodation..

On Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 9:53:28 PM UTC, ARW wrote:
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 02/12/2015 20:36, ARW wrote:

Is it because no-one ever dies from CO poisoning from a gas burning
appliance?


That's untrue. ROSPA say there are 50 CO accidental deaths per year, but
they don't break that down by cause.



Rhetorical question????

Corgi and Gas Safe fitters have never killed anyone due to **** work on a
gas burning appliance!


--
Adam

Sure they have, but nowhere near as many as have been killed by the appliances installed by charlatans pretending to be qualified. These fall into roughly two groups, rogues with experience but no understanding, diligence or conscience and builders (usually extension builders) who try solve
the problem of how to build the extension without relocating the boiler and its flue.