Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding, especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with me
=:-)

"beauvine" wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with
me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing another
sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:27:17 -0600, beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding, especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Welding can get hot enough to crack glass, and the sparks can etch
holes into the surface. BUT, if you mask well and use a MIG welder,
you might do something heavy-duty in glass.

Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional
stained glass piece in several places with it.


Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring minds
want to know" LOL!

Only unasked questions are stupid.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"Dennis" wrote in
. au:


"beauvine" wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped
metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes
it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share
with me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

Oh! OK, thanks, Dennis! So welding bsically applies more heat...? I
tired to google this, but got deluged...


What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for
binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing
another sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....




I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted tomake the table
part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at
Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation
layer, and would have to be painted, which I was tryingto avoid -
especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.

It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?

Is ther a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Thanks again!

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:27:17 -0600, beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some
stained-glass-topped metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen
about welding makes it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally
daunting.

Welding can get hot enough to crack glass, and the sparks can etch
holes into the surface. BUT, if you mask well and use a MIG welder,
you might do something heavy-duty in glass.

Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional
stained glass piece in several places with it.

THanks for your reply, Larry!

The latter is what I meant - sorry I wasn't as specific as I ought to have
been. I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to
Dennis) of stainless steel, with an edged top (basically, an L of metal
around the top into which the stained glass will placed) (possibly on top
of a plexiglass underlayer for support - I just thought of that while
typing this).

So four legs, wiht sross-pieces for stability (as simple as possible) with
the L-shaped pieces at the top to later on hold the glass.

Sort of like a super-simple plant stand, maybe 12"X12"X36"tall.

I'm also scoping around for a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book, like
the "Pasta for Dummies" (yeah, I actually bought that one, LOL!), and so on
in the series.


Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds want to know" LOL!

Only unasked questions are stupid.

Thanks!


--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

The difference is in welding, the parent metal actually melts, fusing the
two pieces of metal (and filler) into effectively one piece of the same kind
of metal - I've read that if done right, the weld can actually be stronger
than the parent metal itself.

Soldering is more like gluing: the solder merely wets the metals, which,
of course, need to be hot enough to melt the solder, and they form a thin
layer of alloy at the interface. A solder joint could theoretically be
broken with your bare hands; the solder is only tin and lead, although I've
heard that some silver-bearing solders can be quite strong.

I'd say there's at least an order of magnitude difference in the strength
of the joint, if not more; and soldering takes place at hundreds of degrees,
welding happens at thousands of degrees. I'd think it's safe to say that
the applications are generally very different. (You wouldn't solder a
cracked Franklin stove, for example, or try to weld a leaky car radiator.)

Hope This Helps!
Rich

Soldering involves a different filler material and never involves
melting of the parent material, and is done at low temp.

Welding always involves melting of parent material and a iller that is
usually a similar metal to what is being welded.

i

"beauvine" wrote in message
...
"Dennis" wrote in
. au:


"beauvine" wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped
metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes
it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share
with me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

Oh! OK, thanks, Dennis! So welding bsically applies more heat...? I
tired to google this, but got deluged...


What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for
binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing
another sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....




I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted tomake the table
part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at
Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation
layer, and would have to be painted, which I was tryingto avoid -
especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.

It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?

Is ther a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Thanks again!


No ideas on a book. Go to youtube and search for welding videos just to get
an idea of the basic process. Look for MIG and TIG welding.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...g+welding&aq=f

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...g+welding&aq=f

On Jan 31, 12:35*am, beauvine wrote:

The latter is what I meant - sorry I wasn't as specific as I ought to have
been. *I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to
Dennis) of stainless steel, with an edged top (basically, an L of metal
around the top into which the stained glass will placed) (possibly on top
of a plexiglass underlayer for support - I just thought of that while
typing this).

First you can probably do better than home depot - ideally a true
steel supplier, but even mcmaster or msc will likely give you more
choices and be cheaper than the rather outrageous prices of a retail
store's metals rack.

Obviously welding can be fun to get into if you want to justify the
purchase of the tools and have an appropriate environment to use them
in. But you could probably also design the project to be bolted
together (using hardware of the same alloy).

Bending the pieces may require quite a bit of thought and work and
some jig fabrication, especially if you want any nice curves or want
to use tubing. Depending on thickness you may want to pay someone to
roll the rim for you.

It might also be worth doing the project once in cheap mild steel to
"figure it out" and then do it over in stainless.

On Jan 31, 12:28*am, beauvine wrote:
"Dennis" wrote m.au:
...
It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?
Is ther a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at
soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite
expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a
skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing
and correcting mistakes.

jsw

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 23:35:31 -0600, beauvine wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote in
:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:27:17 -0600, beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some
stained-glass-topped metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen
about welding makes it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally
daunting.

Welding can get hot enough to crack glass, and the sparks can etch
holes into the surface. BUT, if you mask well and use a MIG welder,
you might do something heavy-duty in glass.

Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional
stained glass piece in several places with it.

THanks for your reply, Larry!

The latter is what I meant - sorry I wasn't as specific as I ought to have
been. I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to
Dennis) of stainless steel, with an edged top (basically, an L of metal
around the top into which the stained glass will placed) (possibly on top
of a plexiglass underlayer for support - I just thought of that while
typing this).

Depending upon size (umbrella table) you'd probably also have to use
at least one steel center support. Stained glass doesn't like to flex
at all. The glazing falls out. For this application, you might use
silicone caulk to glaze it.

Large stained glass pieces, such as churches have, will include
several angle iron supports outside, with straps soldered into the
came channel. This is talked about in many of the stained glass books
on the market. Visit your local library and check all of them out.
Each one has a handful of useful pages and each has different tips.
Then buy the ones you can't live without.


So four legs, wiht sross-pieces for stability (as simple as possible) with
the L-shaped pieces at the top to later on hold the glass.

Sort of like a super-simple plant stand, maybe 12"X12"X36"tall.

That is small enough that you probably wouldn't need any special
support, other than the acrylic.


I'm also scoping around for a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book, like
the "Pasta for Dummies" (yeah, I actually bought that one, LOL!), and so on
in the series.

I learned a whole lot from reading Finch's _Welder's Handbook_.
http://tinyurl.com/46eov8p

If you weren't in Indiana, I'd offer to sell you my arc welder for a
buck an amp. Arc welding is handled by the little HF TIG I bought, so
I don't need the SMAW unit any more. http://tinyurl.com/4s5uh8k
I should use these things more often so I don't have to relearn
welding each time I do use it. sigh

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

On Jan 31, 12:35*am, beauvine wrote:
*I'd like to make some
stained-glass-topped metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen
about welding makes it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally
daunting.



Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional
stained glass piece in several places with it.

*I want to make a super-simple frame table (I also described it to
Dennis) of stainless steel, with an edged top (basically, an L of metal
around the top into which the stained glass will placed) (possibly on top
of a plexiglass underlayer for support - I just thought of that while
typing this).

So four legs, wiht sross-pieces for stability (as simple as possible) with
the L-shaped pieces at the top to later on hold the glass.

Sort of like a super-simple plant stand, maybe 12"X12"X36"tall.



I would suggest you look for information on Silver Brazing, also known
as silver soldering. It is like soldering except at temperatures
above 800 degrees. It will work with stainless steel and can be done
with relatively low cost. It can be very strong, so a table as you
describe would be no problem.

Go to www.brazingbook.com and get the brazing book. You have to
register, but it is free and well worth getting.

Dan

On 01/30/2011 08:54 PM, Dennis wrote:
wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with
me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing another
sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

I'm probably going to start a huge side discussion -- but soldering
ain't welding.

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a
filler. If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the
same alloy. Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically
the same metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can
think of are two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using
stainless as a filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt,
and the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder
vs. copper, or brass vs. steel). The base metal does _not_ melt,
although some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal
pieces together -- yes, they're the same thing. But they ain't the same
thing.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Rich Grise wrote:

beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

The difference is in welding, the parent metal actually melts, fusing the
two pieces of metal (and filler) into effectively one piece of the same kind
of metal - I've read that if done right, the weld can actually be stronger
than the parent metal itself.

Soldering is more like gluing: the solder merely wets the metals, which,
of course, need to be hot enough to melt the solder, and they form a thin
layer of alloy at the interface. A solder joint could theoretically be
broken with your bare hands; the solder is only tin and lead, although I've
heard that some silver-bearing solders can be quite strong.

Lead-tin allow soldering is relatively weak, silver soldering / braxing
with higher temperature silver bearing alloys is stronger, and brazing
with brass alloys is stronger still. The key difference between the
three is the progressively higher temperatures required.

For the OP, find a local community college or tech school that has an
evening "adult ed" type welding course. For minimal cost it will give
you exposure to the various welding processes, the benefits and
drawbacks of each and some hands on time to try them.

On 01/30/2011 09:28 PM, beauvine wrote:
wrote in
. au:


wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped
metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes
it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share
with me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

Oh! OK, thanks, Dennis! So welding bsically applies more heat...? I
tired to google this, but got deluged...


What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for
binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing
another sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....




I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted to make the table
part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at
Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation
layer, and would have to be painted, which I was trying to avoid -
especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, with crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.

It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?

Is there a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Welding is challenging, but is neither 'super expensive' nor dangerous
if you follow some basic and well-known precautions. Welding stainless
steel gets more expensive, but there's certainly ways to get it done.

If I were going to do what you want I'd make the table frame out of mild
steel and paint it black. Then I'd screw a stainless top onto it, and
lay the stained glass onto that. Even if I had the equipment to weld
stainless steel, I'd seriously consider screwing the top onto a frame,
as thin sheets have a tendency to warp when you weld them.

To weld mild steel thin wall tubing, all you need is a gas welding
outfit and some skill. Stainless takes more money for equipment.

Do you live close to a community college? Our local community college
not only offers welding classes, but it offers "project classes", which
is really just the school throwing its workshop open for you to build
what you want with their equipment, with as much help as you need from
their instructor. The basic welding class will teach you how to stick
metal together, and how to have welding equipment without burning your
house down. The open shop class will let you go build your table with a
wide range of somewhat abused tools that would take thousands of dollars
to acquire by yourself.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Jan 31, 9:57*am, Tim Wescott wrote:
...
I'm probably going to start a huge side discussion -- but soldering
ain't welding.

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a
filler. *If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the
same alloy. *Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically
the same metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can
think of are two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using
stainless as a filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt,
and the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder
vs. copper, or brass vs. steel). *The base metal does _not_ melt,
although some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

*From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal
pieces together -- yes, they're the same thing. *But they ain't the same
thing.

Tim Wescott

Stained glass (and pipe organ) soldering is functionally closer to
welding since the base metal melts easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_ca...foil_glasswork

jsw

"beauvine" wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with
me
=:-)

In my estimation, it has to do with melting point. Solder has a lower
melting point. A lot of welding processes use an electric arc to melt only
a small area to a liquid state, whereas soldering melts more filler and base
to a liquid state. Soldering allows the liquid to flow into a joint, and
welding places the liquid crucible portion in an exact location. And
lastly, the stiffness of any metal is a vital factor. Lead, copper, and
gold are relatively soft in a cooled state, whereas lots of other metals are
harder. When the joining process is complete, bending is possible in
various degrees depending on the metal. Lead canes in stained glass are
easily bent where a piece of angle iron is not so much so. As the length
increases, the bending factor increases for all metals. Some is stiff
enough to hold up weight, as steel is, and some is not, as lead is. For
your project, I would use something underneath to support it, even if it is
clear glass. I have not seen a lot of horizontal surface stained glass
work, probably for that very reason.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On 01/31/2011 08:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:57 am, Tim wrote:
...
I'm probably going to start a huge side discussion -- but soldering
ain't welding.

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a
filler. If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the
same alloy. Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically
the same metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can
think of are two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using
stainless as a filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt,
and the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder
vs. copper, or brass vs. steel). The base metal does _not_ melt,
although some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal
pieces together -- yes, they're the same thing. But they ain't the same
thing.

Tim Wescott

Stained glass (and pipe organ) soldering is functionally closer to
welding since the base metal melts easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_ca...foil_glasswork

If you're using lead cameing, I guess. If you're using copper cameing
then no -- the copper doesn't get close to its melting temperature.

You certainly can't transfer much that you learn from soldering to
welding, except for general metalworking and the importance of
cleanliness to a sound joint.

Are pipe organ pipes made out of lead, then?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at
soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite
expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a
skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing
and correcting mistakes.

jsw

reply: You can set up a relatively inexpensive SS rig, and learn how to do
it yourself. All you need is a DC welding rig, a bottle, regulator, TIG
torch, consumables, and some SS. After that, your talent will take you
where it will. It is not rocket science, and for you might be just what you
are looking for.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

Steve B wrote:

In my estimation, it has to do with melting point. Solder has a lower
melting point. A lot of welding processes use an electric arc to melt only
a small area to a liquid state, whereas soldering melts more filler and base
to a liquid state.

Soldering *does not* melt the base metal, it only melts the filler. The
same applies to brazing.

(lots of good comments from others, but I do want to put my $.02 in
here)

"Steve B" writes:

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at
soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite
expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a
skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing
and correcting mistakes.

My experience was that my decades of soldering experience made learning
to weld harder: I was accustomed to being able to rely on the base
metal not melting, and seeing the solder melt meaning I was pretty much
done -- and if I did'nt like the result, I could start over. I found
getting used to the idea that I was working as much with the melted base
metal as with the filler, and that there was no going back (you can
rework a weld, but it isn't like doing the first weld over again!) to be
very, very different.

I strongly endorse learning to weld in a class, or at least with the
help of an expert who has lots of time and patience to help you
improve.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)

On Jan 31, 12:39*pm, Tim Wescott wrote:
....
You certainly can't transfer much that you learn from soldering to
welding, except for general metalworking and the importance of
cleanliness to a sound joint.

Are pipe organ pipes made out of lead, then?
Tim Wescott

I made a sheet lead casting box like this when I was a kid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnWqwncGhoo
The table is covered with cloth and the back side of the open-bottomed
box is raised to set the thickness. The mainly lead+tin alloy is like
solder or pewter. I never got it to work as well as in the video.

Electronic soldering (I'm a lab tech) may not be that much like
welding but soldering larger objects, sheet metal, etc requires
similar control of the molten puddle. After learning the stack-of-
dimes technique in night school I used it at work to solder some RF
filter cans to a ground plane, moving the soldering iron the same way
as the TIG torch.

jsw

"Tim Wescott" wrote

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a
filler. If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the same
alloy. Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically the same
metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can think of are
two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using stainless as a
filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt, and
the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder vs.
copper, or brass vs. steel). The base metal does _not_ melt, although
some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal pieces
together -- yes, they're the same thing. But they ain't the same thing.

--

Tim Wescott

Most all welding, soldering and brazing involves learning the melting points
of metals and how they behave when in a liquid state. Once that concept is
grasped, it is an aha moment, and real understanding and learning
progresses. It was like that for aluminum with me.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

"beauvine" wrote


I'm also scoping around for a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book,
like
the "Pasta for Dummies" (yeah, I actually bought that one, LOL!), and so
on
in the series.

Look for a welder in your area, or in your circle of friends/family. They
can shorten the learning curve substantially.

On Jan 31, 12:39*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
...
reply: *You can set up a relatively inexpensive SS rig, and learn how to do
it yourself. *All you need is a DC welding rig, a bottle, regulator, TIG
torch, consumables, and some SS. *After that, your talent will take you
where it will. *It is not rocket science, and for you might be just what you
are looking for.

Steve

I stick (arc) welded the 0.050" stainless steel bucket for my tractor,
using DC and 308 (or 312??) flux-coated rod. The beads ran as easily
as 6013. The flux fumes are irritating and the metal expands and
distorts considerably when heated.

jsw

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:54:40 +0800, "Dennis"
wrote:


"beauvine" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with
me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing another
sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....

Soldering is NOT welding. Welding involves fusing two pieces of metal
together - melting the base metals together. Soldering and brazing
join the base metal by attaching with a layer of solder or spelter
melted between or on the base metal parts. The difference between
soldering and brazing is generally accepted as a difference in melting
temperatures, with soldering requiring lower heat than brazing, and
brazing being generally stronger than soldering.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:05:51 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:27:17 -0600, beauvine wrote:

Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding, especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Welding can get hot enough to crack glass, and the sparks can etch
holes into the surface. BUT, if you mask well and use a MIG welder,
you might do something heavy-duty in glass.

Alternatively, build a steel subframe and support the traditional
stained glass piece in several places with it.


Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring minds
want to know" LOL!

Only unasked questions are stupid.

A stained glass table top would HAVE to be supported by a single sheet
glass as the caming used in stained glass does not have adequate
strength, and steel caming welded together would involve too much
heat, and the glass would most definitel break or be otherwize
damaged. I have seen nice steel or stainless steel tables with stained
glass sandwiched between 2 layers of tempered glass. Nice wooden
tables done the same way.

Edge lit they can be incredible!!!

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 23:28:18 -0600, beauvine wrote:

"Dennis" wrote in
.au:


"beauvine" wrote in message
...
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding,
especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped
metal tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes
it seem super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring
minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share
with me
=:-)


Soldering is one type of welding, the strength of the weld is normally
limted by the material being welded.

Oh! OK, thanks, Dennis! So welding bsically applies more heat...? I
tired to google this, but got deluged...


What may be more important is the type of metal you are using for
binding
the glass. I assume you use lead or a lead alloy. What about placing
another sheet of glass underneath the stained glass work to support it?

Someone here will probably have done what you want to do....




I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted tomake the table
part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at
Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation
layer, and would have to be painted, which I was tryingto avoid -
especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.

It might be that welding isn't as challenging as I think...?

Is ther a good "Welding for Dummies" type of book that you know of?

Thanks again!
Welding stainless is trickier than welding steel. It does not conduct
heat well, and it wants to "walk" all over the place as you heat it.
It CAN be soldered with the right solder and flux, but it is not as
strong as welding. To properly weld stainless steel you REALLY want a
good TIG welder and a lot of experience. A good friend of mine welds a
lot of high end stainless steel furnishings and cabinetry etc in
Kitchener Ontario. When he is done you cannot see where the weld is -
even on brushed or highly polished stainless.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote

I stick (arc) welded the 0.050" stainless steel bucket for my tractor,
using DC and 308 (or 312??) flux-coated rod. The beads ran as easily
as 6013. The flux fumes are irritating and the metal expands and
distorts considerably when heated.

jsw

Coefficient of linear expansion for some common materials: (coefficient of
linear expansion definition:
The increment of length of a solid in a unit of length for a rise in
temperature of 1° at constant pressure. Also known as linear expansivity. )


Read mo
http://www.answers.com/topic/coeffic...#ixzz1CdwHSm9c

Aluminum 22.2
Steel 13.0
Stainless Steel 9.9 to 17.3
Lead 28.0
Copper 16.6
Titanium 8.6

All values vary slightly to severely according to metallurgical alloy
compositions.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

beauvine wrote:

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.

Depending on what size, it could very well do, especially if you've got
something solid around the perimeter.

Solder them, but maybe do an experiment to find out how much weight it'll
cantilever.

Or, you could buy a tempered glass tabletop off-the-shelf, and just lay
your SG on top of it. :-)

Have Fun!
Rich

beauvine wrote:

[about stained glass tabletop]

Don't weld on stained glass. The glass will crack or melt.

Have Fun!
Rich

Steve Ackman wrote:
22:27:17 -0600, beauvine, wrote:

I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

You're going to want a protective cover over your
stained glass for sure, and depending on design, maybe
under as well.

Please see "coaster." ;-P

Cheers!
Rich

On 01/30/2011 11:28 PM, beauvine wrote:


I should have been more specific in stating that I wanted tomake the table
part, preferably using stainless steel - I can buy "regular steel" bits at
Home Depot, but they develop a dirty coating that I assume is an oxidation
layer, and would have to be painted, which I was tryingto avoid -
especially since I really like the look of brushes stainless.

I have both zinc, and 60:40 zinc:lead solder. I think they'd solder
stainless after flux is applied, but I don't know whether that would be
enough to hold a simple table together (basically, 4 legs, wiht crossbars
for stability, and a top part to hold the glass). I'm only thinking of
something modestly-sized.
Welding stainless is a bit more difficult than other metals. Welding
mild steel is quite easy. There are torch methods for stainless, and
also brazing, but I think most people who do stainless use TIG (Tungsten
Inert Gas). This requires a fairly fancy welder, but allows you (with
sufficient practice) to do amazingly good-looking welds in stainless.
If you've ever seen a commercial kitchen, that was all welded with TIG.
But, it takes a while to get really good with TIG.
However, if you are really good with soldering the glass caning, that is
a skill that may transfer well to TIG.

Oh, one thing about TIG, the UV from the arc is extremely powerful, and
will burn you the color of a cooked lobster THROUGH your clothes. So,
heavy welding jackets and other protective gear is an absolute must.
You don't need to ask HOW I know that!

Jon

On 01/31/2011 11:39 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:

Are pipe organ pipes made out of lead, then?

Sometimes. I had some old pipes that may have dated to pre-civil war
times, or certainly early 1900's. They were amazingly soft, and
collapsed under their own weight. This is a well-known problem, and it
was standard practice to move the pipes up a note every few years and
fabricate one replacement pipe for the lowest note of the rank. You
could see the notes scratched out and rewritten several times on these.
The better pipes were made out of pure Tin, and were astonishingly
harder than the solder pipes, I at first thought they were galvanized
steel, but they were Tin all the way through.

Jon

beauvine wrote:
Hi, I do soldering associated with my stained-glass work. What I'm
wondering is, what's the difference between soldering and welding, especially
in terms of strength...? I'd like to make some stained-glass-topped metal
tables, but what relatively-little I've seen about welding makes it seem
super-expensive, dangerous, and generally daunting.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say, "Inquiring minds
want to know" LOL!

Thanks for your patience, and whatever info you might wish to share with me
=:-)

Ive done stained glass assembly with lead camions and ive also done a
lot of stainless steel welding using arc and an inert gas shield ,called
argon.
I think i might be able to help you decide whats the best way forward
it might just be that its better for you to to concentrate on your glass
work and get someone else to do the s/steel welding and assembly for you
to your design.
A table inherently needs a firm flat surface for its use, and a stained
glass panel when laid flat without support is inherently going to sag in
the middle from its own weight let alone in use .
so as someone else has suggested, you would need a clear glass table top
undereneath you stained glass panel to provide the neccesary support.
If it were me, id do something quite different with the stained glass
table top.
This is what id do, using all glass and no lead.
Id take a clear glass sheet and lay the stained glass on it to the
design id want. have a border around it like on double glazing, then
pour a clear resin over it all with another clear glass sheet on top.
When illuminated from the underneath would look stunning and be
structurally sound.
hope this helps.
ted
in Dorset
UK.

"Jon Elson" wrote

Oh, one thing about TIG, the UV from the arc is extremely powerful, and
will burn you the color of a cooked lobster THROUGH your clothes. So,
heavy welding jackets and other protective gear is an absolute must.
You don't need to ask HOW I know that!

Jon

Make yourself a snood (yes, that is a word, it's even in OSHA literature) of
a piece of supple leather to cover up the exposed skin in the vee in your
shirt under your chin. That area can get lobster red. Of course, it
happened to a friend of mine. I'd never be that stupid
......................

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

Is WD-40 a lubricant, or water displacer?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Larry Jaques" wrote in
message ...

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but what can I say,
"Inquiring minds
want to know" LOL!

Only unasked questions are stupid.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Ted Frater wrote:
....
This is what id do, using all glass and no lead.
Id take a clear glass sheet and lay the stained glass on it to the
design id want. have a border around it like on double glazing, then
pour a clear resin over it all with another clear glass sheet on top.

I've seen tabletops and bar tops where the resin was on top, i.e., no
additional layer of glass, although it could still be done if you felt
like it.

Usually, they have coins embedded in them. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

On 01/31/2011 10:27 AM, Steve B wrote:
"Tim wrote

In welding you melt both sides of the joint together, usually with a
filler. If all the metals are the same alloy, then the joint is the same
alloy. Nearly always, the two pieces to be welded are basically the same
metal, as is the rod (the closest 'routine' exception I can think of are
two dissimilar pieces of steel that are welded using stainless as a
filler).

In soldering and brazing, the two pieces you're attaching do not melt, and
the filler metal is most definitely basically different (i.e. solder vs.
copper, or brass vs. steel). The base metal does _not_ melt, although
some of its surface may dissolve into the filler metal.

From the perspective that you're using melted metal to stick metal pieces
together -- yes, they're the same thing. But they ain't the same thing.

--

Tim Wescott

Most all welding, soldering and brazing involves learning the melting points
of metals and how they behave when in a liquid state. Once that concept is
grasped, it is an aha moment, and real understanding and learning
progresses. It was like that for aluminum with me.

Soldering and brazing add the additional wrinkle of knowing when the
filler is sticking well to the base metal, knowing whether it's
insufficient heat, insufficient flux, or insufficient cleaning -- the
first two can be solved on the fly, the third is a cause for cussing and
reworking.

My few experiences with trying to gas weld aluminum ended up with the
puddle going "floop!" and running onto the floor -- one of these days
I'm going to try again.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
(lots of good comments from others, but I do want to put my $.02 in
here)

"Steve writes:

Common "mild" steel is fairly easy to weld if you are good at
soldering, but stainless is trickier and the equipment can be quite
expensive. I suggest you sign up for a night school class. This is a
skill best learned from an expert because much of it is recognizing
and correcting mistakes.

My experience was that my decades of soldering experience made learning
to weld harder: I was accustomed to being able to rely on the base
metal not melting, and seeing the solder melt meaning I was pretty much
done -- and if I did'nt like the result, I could start over. I found
getting used to the idea that I was working as much with the melted base
metal as with the filler, and that there was no going back (you can
rework a weld, but it isn't like doing the first weld over again!) to be
very, very different.

I strongly endorse learning to weld in a class, or at least with the
help of an expert who has lots of time and patience to help you
improve.


With leadlighting the basemetal (lead) melts at the same time as the
solder, not like soldering guttering etc.