In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

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Hash: SHA256

On 11/20/2015 7:48 AM, Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of
water flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not
trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it
never goes away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no
difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the
incoming main but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes
under the hall on the way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've
detected so far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end
terrace house that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be
certain about any of the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim



its a apparment or a house


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On 20/11/2015 12:48, Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

When I lived in Bristol, the house next door (Victorian end terrace)
discovered that their bath was draining into a small lake a couple of
feet under the living room floor. (Broken cast-iron drain pipe concealed
within the party wall). This was evidently draining into the ground away
from the house (side of a hill) so leaving no obvious signs, until they
took the floor up. Obviously, you don't have a water meter? Might it be
possible to fit one temporarily on your rising main, so that at least
you could confirm or deny an otherwise undetected leak.

Assuming the stop tap turns off flow to all your taps, it's a bit odd
that it only reduces the noise. Seems unlikely that this is because of
sound conduction from a source upstream of your supply.

In article , newshound
wrote:
On 20/11/2015 12:48, Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never
goes away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the
hall on the way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any
of the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

When I lived in Bristol, the house next door (Victorian end terrace)
discovered that their bath was draining into a small lake a couple of
feet under the living room floor. (Broken cast-iron drain pipe concealed
within the party wall). This was evidently draining into the ground away
from the house (side of a hill) so leaving no obvious signs, until they
took the floor up. Obviously, you don't have a water meter? Might it be
possible to fit one temporarily on your rising main, so that at least
you could confirm or deny an otherwise undetected leak.

Assuming the stop tap turns off flow to all your taps, it's a bit odd
that it only reduces the noise. Seems unlikely that this is because of
sound conduction from a source upstream of your supply.

when I had a leak on the pipe coming in from the road, shutting off the
main stopcock in the house reduced, but did not stop, the noise. Has she
an outside tap?

--
Please note new email address:

Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Quite likely a cistern overflow plumbed directly into a drain.

On 20/11/15 13:40, Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never
goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall
on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Quite likely a cistern overflow plumbed directly into a drain.

however if turning the stopcock off doesn't stop it, it cant be that.
Unless the stopcock is faulty, its upstream of the cock.. unless of
course there is a header tank.

Try draining the whole system by turning on all the taps after turning
off the cock.

If it is header tank inspired, Id say your guess that its a bad toilet
cistern is a good one. I've had one or two of those.


--
the biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/11/15 13:40, Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never
goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall
on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Quite likely a cistern overflow plumbed directly into a drain.

however if turning the stopcock off doesn't stop it, it cant be that.
Unless the stopcock is faulty, its upstream of the cock.. unless of
course there is a header tank.

Try draining the whole system by turning on all the taps after turning
off the cock.

If it is header tank inspired, Id say your guess that its a bad toilet
cistern is a good one. I've had one or two of those.



Stopcock works. Opening taps makes no difference. No header tanks in my
daughter's flat. Nothing overflowing into drains from her flat or one of
the upstairs ones.

Potentially possible from the other flat but hard to check as their soil
stack doesn't empty into an accessible chamber.

Odd though that I can hear any noise from the incoming main further
"upstream".

Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)

Tim

On 20/11/2015 14:47, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/11/15 13:40, Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never
goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall
on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Quite likely a cistern overflow plumbed directly into a drain.

however if turning the stopcock off doesn't stop it, it cant be that.
Unless the stopcock is faulty, its upstream of the cock.. unless of
course there is a header tank.

Try draining the whole system by turning on all the taps after turning
off the cock.

If it is header tank inspired, Id say your guess that its a bad toilet
cistern is a good one. I've had one or two of those.



Stopcock works. Opening taps makes no difference. No header tanks in my
daughter's flat. Nothing overflowing into drains from her flat or one of
the upstairs ones.

Potentially possible from the other flat but hard to check as their soil
stack doesn't empty into an accessible chamber.

Odd though that I can hear any noise from the incoming main further
"upstream".

Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)

Tim

Sounds like a good bet

On Friday, 20 November 2015 12:50:36 UTC, Tim wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Lift a manhole cover and see if there's any water running to waste.
You'll have to look carefully to see it if it's clear..

Maybe a ventilation fan running somewhere?

Some industrial noise/big water drawoff.

Is it 24/7 or does it stop?

Does it change if you open all the cold water taps?

Put a screwdriver blade on a pipe and the handle hard against your ear & thus see if the noise is being transmitted along the pipes.

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)

It's unlikely that the upstairs flats feed off this main, if your daughter
went on holiday and one or both of those above had a leak, they wouldn't be
able to turn the water off. By the same token, if water related work was
being carried out at your daughter's place, both upstairs properties would
be without water all the time it was off.

It's far more likely that your daughter has the original main that came into
the old building and that the upstairs properties each have their own main,
probably hidden somewhere, and it's one or both of these that is running.

harry wrote:
On Friday, 20 November 2015 12:50:36 UTC, Tim wrote:
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Lift a manhole cover and see if there's any water running to waste.
You'll have to look carefully to see it if it's clear..


Done that.

Maybe a ventilation fan running somewhere?

It's water pipe noise. Loudest under the kitchen sink where the stop tap
is.



Some industrial noise/big water drawoff.

No big nearby industry.

Is it 24/7 or does it stop?

Can't vouch for 24/7 but it's always been present when I've been there and
continues through the night.


Does it change if you open all the cold water taps?

Hmm, adding more flow noises doesn't strike me as helpful.

Put a screwdriver blade on a pipe and the handle hard against your ear &
thus see if the noise is being transmitted along the pipes.


Done that. Noise doesn't seem to propagate back up lead pipe significantly.

Tim

Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:

In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Is this the same house as has the damp patch?

Damp patch.....sound of flowing water.....er....nah! surely not!


No pipework in damp corner. Besides, I've had floorboards up in that room
today. No floods or recent damp.

Tim

Phil L wrote:

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)

It's unlikely that the upstairs flats feed off this main, if your daughter
went on holiday and one or both of those above had a leak, they wouldn't be
able to turn the water off.

No reason why they wouldn't have their own stop taps. It was split into
flats many years ago. Inconceivable that each flat wouldn't have its own
stop tap. Quite conceivable though that the original main supply has been
lead upstairs to each flat branching off before my daughter's stop tap.

By the same token, if water related work was
being carried out at your daughter's place, both upstairs properties would
be without water all the time it was off.

It's far more likely that your daughter has the original main that came into
the old building and that the upstairs properties each have their own main,
probably hidden somewhere, and it's one or both of these that is running.

But there must be some commonality otherwise the noise wouldn't be being
transmitted so clearly.

Tim

In message , Chris Hogg
writes
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:


I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Is this the same house as has the damp patch?

Damp patch.....sound of flowing water.....er....nah! surely not!

Have we done central heating circulating pump yet?


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Chris Hogg
writes
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:


I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Is this the same house as has the damp patch?

Damp patch.....sound of flowing water.....er....nah! surely not!

Have we done central heating circulating pump yet?


*sigh*

Yes, it been done. Besides, why would closing a mains stopcock alter CH
pump flow noise?

Tim

In message , Tim+
writes
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Chris Hogg
writes
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:


I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Is this the same house as has the damp patch?

Damp patch.....sound of flowing water.....er....nah! surely not!

Have we done central heating circulating pump yet?


*sigh*

Yes, it been done. Besides, why would closing a mains stopcock alter CH
pump flow noise?

No reason I can offer. Not been following very closely. If you have
covered all the likely cistern overflow situations including those
vented to the pan, it must be external. Can you get your neighbours to
close their stopcocks and then listen at the water co's. shut off?



--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Tim+
writes
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Chris Hogg
writes
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:


I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

Is this the same house as has the damp patch?

Damp patch.....sound of flowing water.....er....nah! surely not!

Have we done central heating circulating pump yet?


*sigh*

Yes, it been done. Besides, why would closing a mains stopcock alter CH
pump flow noise?

No reason I can offer. Not been following very closely. If you have
covered all the likely cistern overflow situations including those
vented to the pan, it must be external. Can you get your neighbours to
close their stopcocks and then listen at the water co's. shut off?




I will do, but as my ungrateful daughter has moved three hour's drive away,
it'll have to wait now. ;-)

Tim

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it never
goes
away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main
but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the hall on
the
way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected so
far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace house
that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain about any of
the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

I had a problem very similar to this for a couple of years.
No obvious leakage and no obvious solution. This was only audible in the
middle of the night (quietest time as I live near Heathrow). Most will
probably know why I might be taking a short stroll at that time.
Turned out to be a small air pump supplying an aquarium . Sound resonating
through pipework. Pump located close to, but not touching any, pipework.
Also pump at least 6m from noise source.
Probably no help to you whatsoever, just reminded me.
Nick.

On 20/11/2015 21:06, Tim+ wrote:


I will do, but as my ungrateful daughter has moved three hour's drive away,
it'll have to wait now. ;-)

Tim


Some might consider that an advantage :-)

Tim+ Wrote in message:
Phil L wrote:

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)

It's unlikely that the upstairs flats feed off this main, if your daughter
went on holiday and one or both of those above had a leak, they wouldn't be
able to turn the water off.

No reason why they wouldn't have their own stop taps. It was split into
flats many years ago. Inconceivable that each flat wouldn't have its own
stop tap. Quite conceivable though that the original main supply has been
lead upstairs to each flat branching off before my daughter's stop tap.

By the same token, if water related work was
being carried out at your daughter's place, both upstairs properties would
be without water all the time it was off.

It's far more likely that your daughter has the original main that came into
the old building and that the upstairs properties each have their own main,
probably hidden somewhere, and it's one or both of these that is running.

But there must be some commonality otherwise the noise wouldn't be being
transmitted so clearly.


Yep,

It does sound to me like it might be water flow to other flats
causing the sound.

We have a slightly odd situation, of one water main, which feeds
two incomers into our house (it was quite possibly two properties
at one point).

One can hear the sound from flow through one , through the other
pipes, even though they are separated by a fair distance.
--
Chris French


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In message , Tim+
writes
Have we done central heating circulating pump yet?


*sigh*

Yes, it been done. Besides, why would closing a mains stopcock alter CH
pump flow noise?

No reason I can offer. Not been following very closely. If you have
covered all the likely cistern overflow situations including those
vented to the pan, it must be external. Can you get your neighbours to
close their stopcocks and then listen at the water co's. shut off?




I will do, but as my ungrateful daughter has moved three hour's drive away,
it'll have to wait now. ;-)

They are never ungrateful; just a bit slow expressing thanks:-)
--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC)
Tim+ wrote:

In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

Turning the mains tap under the sink off makes it quieter but it
never goes away. Turning the CH (combi boiler) off makes no
difference.

I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the
incoming main but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes
under the hall on the way to the kitchen, it's silent.

There's no obvious flooding in or under her flat that we've detected
so far. Her flat is the ground floor of a three story end terrace
house that's been split into flats so it's difficult to be certain
about any of the plumbing routes or to know what's "live".

I must admit I'm baffled. Any suggestions?

Tim

We moved into a student rental house (many years ago), which always had
a background noise of running water. We always assumed it was because
there was a newer housing estate built beyond the house, and we were
hearing the water main supplying that estate. Then one night, the Water
Board appeared outside with diggers, and asked if we had noticed any
subsidence, as somebody a few houses away had water in his basement. It
turned out that there had been a leak in the water main outside the
property for several years, which had gradually eroded away the
grass verge in front of the house, from underneath. Once it was fixed,
we couldn't get used to the silence, it was like waiting for the other
shoe to drop.

--
Davey.

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+ wrote:

In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

So a hissing type noise?
I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the
hall on the way to the kitchen, it's silent.

If that is with a listening device (large screwdriver, end of handle
against your ear, blade on pipe, reasonable force each end) or just
being close? Lead pipe doesn't transmit sounds as well as
copper/brass. Can you hear it with the listening device at the brass
stopcock?

I'd be tempted to put money on it being a leak at the street
stopcock, probably where the lead pipe is sweated onto the stop cock.
Find and open that cover and see if the chamber is full of water, if
not is the noise is louder on that stopcock compared to the one
inside?

If the lead runs under somewhere that carries vechicular traffic it
the ground might have moved over time and weight of vehicles and
ruptured the pipe. Any HGV's passing over it recently though I don't
think you have enough history of the place to know if this noise is
recent or long term.

The local water board will fix a leak at the stopcock or further
upstream for free (it's theirs). After the stop cock is your
duaghters but as this is lead they may replace/line it for free to
get the lead out of the water supply, more so in soft water areas,
soft water being quite agressive. The scale from hardwater protects
the lead.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Tim+
writes
Odd though that I can hear any noise from the incoming main further
"upstream".

Thinking about it, the incomer is lead (which may deaden flow noises
quickly) and it's possible that the upstairs flats tee off this main near
the stop tap in my daughter's flat.

Think I have to go visit the upstairs neighbour. ;-)


Possibly the sound of the water flow in their hydroponics system, are
they Vietnamese by any chance? :-)


Tim


--
Bill

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:48:12 -0000 (UTC), Tim+ wrote:

In my daughters kitchen there's a constant background noise of water
flowing through pipes. (Mains pressure flow sounds, not trickling
noises).

So a hissing type noise?
I thought maybe it was a flow noise travelling up through the incoming
main but when I listen to the main incomer where it passes under the
hall on the way to the kitchen, it's silent.

If that is with a listening device (large screwdriver, end of handle
against your ear, blade on pipe, reasonable force each end) or just
being close? Lead pipe doesn't transmit sounds as well as
copper/brass. Can you hear it with the listening device at the brass
stopcock?

I'd be tempted to put money on it being a leak at the street
stopcock, probably where the lead pipe is sweated onto the stop cock.
Find and open that cover and see if the chamber is full of water, if
not is the noise is louder on that stopcock compared to the one
inside?

If the lead runs under somewhere that carries vechicular traffic it
the ground might have moved over time and weight of vehicles and
ruptured the pipe. Any HGV's passing over it recently though I don't
think you have enough history of the place to know if this noise is
recent or long term.

The local water board will fix a leak at the stopcock or further
upstream for free (it's theirs). After the stop cock is your
duaghters but as this is lead they may replace/line it for free to
get the lead out of the water supply, more so in soft water areas,
soft water being quite agressive. The scale from hardwater protects
the lead.


Whilst they aren't required to, our water supply company will repair a
leak in the customers supply pipe after the stopcock for free. Though
not within the property, or within 600mm, and only once every 5 years.

I'm pretty sure Yorkshire water had a similar policy when we lived up
there

--
Chris French