My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how many
cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x 2.4m
lengths?

Tim

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x
2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/06/2015 09:59, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x
2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers
--
Syd

Syd Rumpo wrote:
On 10/06/2015 09:59, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x
2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

Tim

On 10/06/2015 10:47, Tim+ wrote:
Syd Rumpo wrote:
On 10/06/2015 09:59, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x
2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

Tim

Depends on the load. If the rail is decorative or just for light use,
no problem at all - the glue is strong, but the plaster may not be.

Cheers
--
Syd

On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider area
than a screw would.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

Tim+ wrote:

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x
2.4m lengths?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

I think you'd be OK with a no-more-mails type product, providing she's
not hanging Old Masters from the rail. As for how many tubes, I should
think a thin bead top and bottom edge of the rail (or a zig-zag if you
prefer) and would expect to get three lengths out of a tube, I've been
using Screwfix solvent free "can't believe it's not nails" it's under £2
a tube, so buy 10 and take any left-overs back IYCBA.

I've been using it for skirtings/architraves/expamet plasterboard corner
beads it grabs well, I have been pinning some of them, just so I can
move on to the next without worrying about slipping, but it goes off
fairly quickly, you could probably hold the rail in place for under a
minute if you want to avoid nailing the laths, or the hassle of locating
them to screw into them.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider area
than a screw would.


Yeah, but screws or nails will be going into the studding behind, which
should give a reliable fixing. I'd always be wary of trusting 100 + yo
plaster, though I'm not opposed in principle to gluing things.

The other thing about gluing them up is that the walls are unlikley to
be flat. So it's quite likely that thee will be some need for mechanical
fixings at some point as well to hold it tight against the wall.

Of course, it's unlikely that they will need to be fixed to the old
plaster, as pulling off the old ones is bound to make a mess of the old
stuff underneath which will need patching at least. This is one of those
jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to mission creep.

I'm wondering why she want to replace them?
--
Chris French

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

Yes - it is only as strong as the plaster skim it's attached to.

As has been said, screw it to the studs. The original would have been
nailed - but less chance of damage screwing it.

--
*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/06/15 11:25, Chris French wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider
area than a screw would.


Yeah, but screws or nails will be going into the studding behind, which
should give a reliable fixing. I'd always be wary of trusting 100 + yo
plaster, though I'm not opposed in principle to gluing things.


That is not a unassailable assumption.

The other thing about gluing them up is that the walls are unlikley to
be flat. So it's quite likely that thee will be some need for mechanical
fixings at some point as well to hold it tight against the wall.

Of course, it's unlikely that they will need to be fixed to the old
plaster, as pulling off the old ones is bound to make a mess of the old
stuff underneath which will need patching at least. This is one of those
jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to mission creep.

I'm wondering why she want to replace them?


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Syd Rumpo wrote:
On 10/06/2015 09:59, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately
how many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for
18 x 2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

I wouldn't have thought glue good for sideways force. Pictures (actually
the glass) can be quite heavy

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

Not if the screw goes into something solid like the timber uprights

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider area
than a screw would.

They'd probably be every 15 inches.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/06/2015 11:42, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

Yes - it is only as strong as the plaster skim it's attached to.

As has been said, screw it to the studs. The original would have been
nailed - but less chance of damage screwing it.


Unless the walls are dead flat fixings are going to be necessary at some
points just to hold it in position, so I'd use a combination of screws
and a Gripfil type adhesive.
IME trying to get the rail to follow the wall is a bad strategy. Fix the
rail so that *it* is straight, and fill behind. It creates the illusion
of straightness and nobody notices the filler

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to
them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

Yes - it is only as strong as the plaster skim it's attached to.

As has been said, screw it to the studs. The original would have been
nailed - but less chance of damage screwing it.

You'll have a bigger hole in the rail to fill if you use screws.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/06/15 12:38, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Syd Rumpo wrote:
On 10/06/2015 09:59, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately
how many cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for
18 x 2.4m lengths?

I'd search for the timber uprights and nail the picture rails to them.

Screw them. You don't want to be banging nails in lath and plaster.

Cheers

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

I wouldn't have thought glue good for sideways force. Pictures (actually
the glass) can be quite heavy

actually glue is best at sideways force (shear) its often worst at
tensile force.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

Tim+ wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.


Is this "replace" as in "take down old and put up new" or as in "put up
new where someone in the past has taken down old"? From the comments
you have had different people may be making different assumptions.

And if you decide to drill then IMLE don't be surprised if some of that
lath and plaster turns out to have been patched with stuff that's as
hard as Coade stone

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In message , Chris French
writes

This is one of those jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to
mission creep.

Chris, *every* job in an old house leads to mission creep :-)

We're in the middle of decorating a bedroom. Simple enough? Well, yes,
the actual slapping paint on is straightforward, but getting to that
stage takes forever. Repair sash windows that have probably not been
opened since before the war. Notice lovely brass fittings covered in a
hundred years of paint. Remove to clean. Dig paint out of screw slots
first. Remove, tumble, polish. Lift carpet. Room had en suite
facilities added 30 years ago, and heating 12 years ago. Realise what a
mess the floor boards are. Repair. Notice skirting not fixed properly
in places. Repair. Notice gaps here there and everywhere. Use filler
and caulk. Notice ridge on skirting where most people didn't bother to
lift carpet. Sand smooth. Fill numerous small holes from old picture
hooks etc. Sand smooth. Decide to use lining paper on one wall to
cover still visible repair to crack, decades old. The list goes on ...
--
Graeme

In article ,
Robin wrote:
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.


Is this "replace" as in "take down old and put up new" or as in "put up
new where someone in the past has taken down old"? From the comments
you have had different people may be making different assumptions.

If taking down old to fit new, you'll see where the studs are by the nail
holes.

If it has already been removed, you might also see them by the patching -
unless it's been skimmed, or more likely had plasterboard fitted.

--
*A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
As has been said, screw it to the studs. The original would have been
nailed - but less chance of damage screwing it.

You'll have a bigger hole in the rail to fill if you use screws.

True. Definitive way is to make up some plugs out of the scrap ends and
glue them into a recessed countersunk hole.

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
News wrote:
In message , Chris French
writes

This is one of those jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to
mission creep.

Chris, *every* job in an old house leads to mission creep :-)


+1; our house is 104 years old.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

It is unlikely to be very flat, so I'd suggest you will probably want to
screw it up.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an 1890s
property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in generally good
condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case? If so, approximately how
many
cartridges of a product like No More Nails would I need for 18 x 2.4m
lengths?

Tim

In message , charles
writes
In article ,
News wrote:

Chris, *every* job in an old house leads to mission creep :-)

+1; our house is 104 years old.

1880s here. I forgot to mention life's little amusement this morning.
Upstairs, filling holes, when wifey called me start the mower, so off I
went. On the way back, I noticed a white splodge on the carpet from the
kitchen to the hall, then another, then up two flights of stairs to the
landing. Yes, I had trodden on some dropped, fresh, filler. Wasted far
too long clearing that before wifey finished cutting the lawn :-)
--
Graeme

In article ,
News wrote:
We're in the middle of decorating a bedroom. Simple enough? Well, yes,
the actual slapping paint on is straightforward, but getting to that
stage takes forever. Repair sash windows that have probably not been
opened since before the war. Notice lovely brass fittings covered in a
hundred years of paint. Remove to clean. Dig paint out of screw slots
first. Remove, tumble, polish. Lift carpet. Room had en suite
facilities added 30 years ago, and heating 12 years ago. Realise what a
mess the floor boards are. Repair. Notice skirting not fixed properly
in places. Repair. Notice gaps here there and everywhere. Use filler
and caulk. Notice ridge on skirting where most people didn't bother to
lift carpet. Sand smooth. Fill numerous small holes from old picture
hooks etc. Sand smooth. Decide to use lining paper on one wall to
cover still visible repair to crack, decades old. The list goes on ...

Great fun. ;-)

But do it right now and it will be easy next time. If you intend staying
for a while.

Pros tend to do it cheaply, rather than correctly.

--
*No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

But do it right now and it will be easy next time. If you intend staying
for a while.

That is exactly what we're trying to do. We keep telling ourselves that
each room is a major operation this time, but will just need a quick rub
down and a lick of paint in the future.

Pros tend to do it cheaply, rather than correctly.

Tell me about it. I think we've had three rooms done by pros, and yes,
they're painted, with a superficial repair where necessary, but nothing
like the jobs we do. We'll have to do a proper job next time.
--
Graeme

Chris French wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's an
1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is in
generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end up
with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and plaster
dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider area
than a screw would.


Yeah, but screws or nails will be going into the studding behind, which
should give a reliable fixing. I'd always be wary of trusting 100 + yo
plaster, though I'm not opposed in principle to gluing things.

The other thing about gluing them up is that the walls are unlikley to be
flat. So it's quite likely that thee will be some need for mechanical
fixings at some point as well to hold it tight against the wall.

Of course, it's unlikely that they will need to be fixed to the old
plaster, as pulling off the old ones is bound to make a mess of the old
stuff underneath which will need patching at least. This is one of those
jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to mission creep.

I'm wondering why she want to replace them?

Because they're not there and they would suit the age of the house. It
clearly has had them in the past but a previous owner has removed them. As
I said, the plaster is surprisingly good and I don't really have any qualms
about it pulling off.

Is there a "typical" studding spacing in houses of this era? I guess it's
just a case of poking something through at regular intervals behind where
the rail is going to go to work out the spacing. Actually, thinking about
it, unless it's been re-skimmed since the old rails came down I should be
able to spot the patching over the original screw holes.

Tim

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
I'm wondering why she want to replace them?

Because they're not there and they would suit the age of the house. It
clearly has had them in the past but a previous owner has removed them.
As I said, the plaster is surprisingly good and I don't really have any
qualms about it pulling off.

If they were clearly there in the past, can't you see where they were
nailed?

Is there a "typical" studding spacing in houses of this era? I guess it's
just a case of poking something through at regular intervals behind where
the rail is going to go to work out the spacing. Actually, thinking about
it, unless it's been re-skimmed since the old rails came down I should be
able to spot the patching over the original screw holes.

Quite but they'll be nail holes, not screws.

14" is a fairly common spacing. A decent stud finder should help.

Of course any outside walls are likely plaster on brick.

If it's going to be purely decorative, gluing might well be OK. But
screwing is the way I'd do it.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Chris French wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 10/06/15 11:03, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2015 09:47:10 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

My daughter want to replace the picture rails in her house. It's
an 1890s property with lath and plaster walls and the plaster is
in generally good condition.

Would gluing be the best option in this case?

But what about glue? Any reason not to use it?

The glue is only as good as what it's stuck to. You're likely to end
up with a picture rail lying on the floor with a chunk of paint and
plaster dust glued to the back of it.

Te same goes for any fixing.

The advantage of glue is that it spreads the load over a far wider area
than a screw would.


Yeah, but screws or nails will be going into the studding behind, which
should give a reliable fixing. I'd always be wary of trusting 100 + yo
plaster, though I'm not opposed in principle to gluing things.

The other thing about gluing them up is that the walls are unlikley to
be flat. So it's quite likely that thee will be some need for
mechanical fixings at some point as well to hold it tight against the
wall.

Of course, it's unlikely that they will need to be fixed to the old
plaster, as pulling off the old ones is bound to make a mess of the
old stuff underneath which will need patching at least. This is one of
those jobs in an old house that always seems to lead to mission creep.

I'm wondering why she want to replace them?

Because they're not there and they would suit the age of the house. It
clearly has had them in the past but a previous owner has removed them.
As I said, the plaster is surprisingly good and I don't really have any
qualms about it pulling off.

Is there a "typical" studding spacing in houses of this era? I guess it's
just a case of poking something through at regular intervals behind where
the rail is going to go to work out the spacing. Actually, thinking about
it, unless it's been re-skimmed since the old rails came down I should be
able to spot the patching over the original screw holes.

One of the3 sligtly more sophiticated "pipe detectors" should indicate the
nails which will be used to hold the laths to the uprights (studding). You
could try gentle tapping.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/06/2015 16:57, charles wrote:


One of the3 sligtly more sophiticated "pipe detectors" should indicate the
nails which will be used to hold the laths to the uprights (studding). You
could try gentle tapping.


Yes, that might work. I doubt whether a pure stud finder will work on
lath & plaster 'cos it won't be able to see the wood for the trees - if
you see what I mean.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Yes, that might work. I doubt whether a pure stud finder will work on
lath & plaster 'cos it won't be able to see the wood for the trees - if
you see what I mean.

Mine works ok here. Some walls still original plaster, some plasterboard
over the laths. On a plasterboard direct to stud wall, you can find the
studs by tapping the wall with a knuckle.

--
*Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 2:36:51 PM UTC+1, News wrote:
In message , charles
writes
In article ,
News wrote:

Chris, *every* job in an old house leads to mission creep :-)

+1; our house is 104 years old.

1880s here. I forgot to mention life's little amusement this morning.
Upstairs, filling holes, when wifey called me start the mower, so off I
went. On the way back, I noticed a white splodge on the carpet from the
kitchen to the hall, then another, then up two flights of stairs to the
landing. Yes, I had trodden on some dropped, fresh, filler. Wasted far
too long clearing that before wifey finished cutting the lawn :-)
--
Graeme

My last house was 400 years old.
You think you had problems?

In message ,
harry writes
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 2:36:51 PM UTC+1, News wrote:

1880s here.

My last house was 400 years old.
You think you had problems?

This is my third Victorian house, and I have enjoyed them all. All have
required work, but I still prefer them to modern houses.

--
Graeme

In article ,
News wrote:
In message ,
harry writes
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 2:36:51 PM UTC+1, News wrote:

1880s here.

My last house was 400 years old.
You think you had problems?

This is my third Victorian house, and I have enjoyed them all. All have
required work, but I still prefer them to modern houses.

A young man I know recently bought a listed cottage. BC were strct - all
plasterwork had to be with lime, all timber had to be cut to correct
sizes,; mind you he was allowed to install electricity to modern standards.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In message , charles
writes
In article ,
News wrote:
In message ,
harry writes
On Wednesday, June 10, 2015 at 2:36:51 PM UTC+1, News wrote:

1880s here.

My last house was 400 years old.
You think you had problems?

This is my third Victorian house, and I have enjoyed them all. All have
required work, but I still prefer them to modern houses.

A young man I know recently bought a listed cottage. BC were strct - all
plasterwork had to be with lime,

That's pretty standard - and there are good reasons for it. Ditto things
like repointing.

all timber had to be cut to correct
sizes,;

Not sure what you mean by that though.


--
Chris French

all timber had to be cut to correct
sizes,;

Not sure what you mean by that though.



Probably imperial dimensions

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:

all timber had to be cut to correct
sizes,;

Not sure what you mean by that though.



Probably imperial dimensions

or even older. It had to be an exact replacement for the original. None of
this "near enough" workmanship.

--
Please note new email address: