In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the pipe
sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are yuo
asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.

*If* you are competent, yes. But if you have to ask, you're probably not.

--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Monday, 11 May 2015 14:00:02 UTC+1, Chris French wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not automatically
mean you can work on all gas appliances. There are categories of
competancy - you need to check that the fitter you are employing
has the relevant category as well. So for example, being
competent to work on a boiler would not necessarily mean
competent to install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen fitter
summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm not qualified to
work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure if you
have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions tells you how to
do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural gas
since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces. (hence why
any detachable connections are usually kept outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled gas.


That doesn't mean what John wrote about bottled gas is incorrect.

But it is.
For all GAS you are allowed to do anyhting it says regarding conecting
if it is in the user manual as being able to do it.
Which is why peole can fill their own cigarette lighters, and be able
to connect their callor gas in the caravan. My last gas cooker was a
baynot mount so I could disconect that myself.

And that has got nothing to do with what John was saying about bottled
gas (that it is more dangerous to work with and that is why connections
are usually outside))

But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the
pipe sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are
yuo asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.


Yes, if you are competent.

But you've shown previously:

1. that you don't accept that
2. that you like to argue endlessly, so that's the last I'll say on that
point.
--
Chris French

On Monday, 11 May 2015 15:18:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the pipe
sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are yuo
asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.

*If* you are competent, yes. But if you have to ask, you're probably not.

if you have to ask you're probbaly are compendent.

On Monday, 11 May 2015 15:50:13 UTC+1, Chris French wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Monday, 11 May 2015 14:00:02 UTC+1, Chris French wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not automatically
mean you can work on all gas appliances. There are categories of
competancy - you need to check that the fitter you are employing
has the relevant category as well. So for example, being
competent to work on a boiler would not necessarily mean
competent to install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen fitter
summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm not qualified to
work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure if you
have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions tells you how to
do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural gas
since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces. (hence why
any detachable connections are usually kept outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled gas.


That doesn't mean what John wrote about bottled gas is incorrect.

But it is.
For all GAS you are allowed to do anyhting it says regarding conecting
if it is in the user manual as being able to do it.
Which is why peole can fill their own cigarette lighters, and be able
to connect their callor gas in the caravan. My last gas cooker was a
baynot mount so I could disconect that myself.

And that has got nothing to do with what John was saying about bottled
gas (that it is more dangerous to work with and that is why connections
are usually outside))

But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the
pipe sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are
yuo asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.


Yes, if you are competent.

But you've shown previously:

1. that you don't accept that
2. that you like to argue endlessly, so that's the last I'll say on that
point.
--
Chris French

That shows that you don't know what you're talking about tehn doesn't it.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 11 May 2015 15:18:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the
pipe sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off.
Are yuo asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY
projects.

*If* you are competent, yes. But if you have to ask, you're probably
not.

if you have to ask you're probbaly are compendent.


Think is if you were used to working on copper (or iron barrel) for other
things, you'd simply transfer those skills to gas pipe, for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

But it's probably just as well many think you're not allowed to work on
gas. Look at the number who knock holes in walls etc without proper
support - because it's not covered by a ban on DIY.

--
*IF YOU TRY TO FAIL, AND SUCCEED, WHICH HAVE YOU DONE?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/05/2015 12:10, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not automatically
mean you can work on all gas appliances. There are categories of
competancy - you need to check that the fitter you are employing
has the relevant category as well. So for example, being
competent to work on a boiler would not necessarily mean
competent to install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen fitter
summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm not qualified to
work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure if you
have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions tells you how to
do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural gas
since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces. (hence why
any detachable connections are usually kept outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled gas.

Indeed there are plenty. So test your connections carefully.

Most fixed installations that use LPG store the cylinders outside, along
with the user connectible bits. Its also why mobile homes etc typically
have their gas inlet points open to the outside.

Boats are one of the most dangerous places for LPG pooling, since
ventilating them at the lowest point has obvious downsides ;-)

As to "getting it checked" - kind of pointless, since one of the
fundamental requirements of anyone claiming competency, is being able to
adequately test your own work to prove its save.

claiming competency isn't that the main point. Most people could drive days weeks or even months before they could pass their driving test.

Not sure what your point is. If you are competent to do the work, you
will by default test what you have done. So what is the point of paying
to have it tested again?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

On 11/05/2015 14:37, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 11 May 2015 14:00:02 UTC+1, Chris French wrote:
In message
,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm
wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not
automatically mean you can work on all gas appliances.
There are categories of competancy - you need to check
that the fitter you are employing has the relevant
category as well. So for example, being competent to
work on a boiler would not necessarily mean competent to
install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen
fitter summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm
not qualified to work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure
if you have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions
tells you how to do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural
gas since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces.
(hence why any detachable connections are usually kept
outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled
gas.


That doesn't mean what John wrote about bottled gas is incorrect.

But it is.

Huh?

So you are saying that bottled gas is not heavier than air? or it does
not pose a risk of pooling?

For all GAS you are allowed to do anyhting it says
regarding conecting if it is in the user manual as being able to do
it.
Which is why peole can fill their own cigarette lighters, and be able
to connect their callor gas in the caravan. My last gas cooker was a
baynot mount so I could disconect that myself.

Most cookers do not come with the bayonet connector and hose though.
That needs fitting, and its a job where competency is required. Yes the
supplied manual usually describes its fitting.

But I have since had
to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the pipe sticking out of
the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are yuo asyiong I would
be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.

You? I don't know...

Can you:

1) make (with 99.99% reliability) soldered joints in copper pipe? (or
compression fittings if you prefer)

2) Have the appropriate fittings, solder and flux for gas work?

3) Do you know how to isolate your gas supply, and fit a blanking disc
into the meter outlet (or remove the meter and protect its inlet and
outlet ports)?

4) Do you know how to safely cut into a pipe containing gas (maintaining
an equipotential bond if required)?

5) Having capped the pipe, do you know how to carry out a pressure drop
test with a U tube manometer (or electronic equivalent)? Do you know
what the allowable losses are?

5) Do you know how to verify the main control valve is not letting by
and hence masking a leak?

6) Do you know the purging procedure for recommissioning the system?

If you can answer yes to all those, and you have the required practical
skills to actually do the above then your would not necessarily be a
competent gas fitter, however you would in all likelihood be competent
to carry out that one specific job.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 11 May 2015 14:00:02 UTC+1, Chris French wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not automatically
mean you can work on all gas appliances. There are categories of
competancy - you need to check that the fitter you are employing
has the relevant category as well. So for example, being
competent to work on a boiler would not necessarily mean
competent to install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen fitter
summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm not qualified to
work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure if you
have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions tells you how to
do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural gas
since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces. (hence why
any detachable connections are usually kept outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled gas.


That doesn't mean what John wrote about bottled gas is incorrect.

But it is.
For all GAS you are allowed to do anyhting it says regarding
conecting if it is in the user manual as being able to do it.

Utterly mangled all over again.

Which is why peole can fill their own cigarette lighters,

Nope.

and be able to connect their callor gas in the caravan.

Nope.

My last gas cooker was a baynot mount so I could disconect that myself.
But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the pipe
sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off. Are yuo
asyiong
I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY projects.

Yep, if you are competent to do that.

On Monday, 11 May 2015 18:39:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 11 May 2015 15:18:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
But I have since had to get a gas safe worker in the disconnect the
pipe sticking out of the floor, I think he called it capping off.
Are yuo asyiong I would be allowed to do that myself as a DIY
projects.

*If* you are competent, yes. But if you have to ask, you're probably
not.

if you have to ask you're probbaly are compendent.


Think is if you were used to working on copper (or iron barrel) for other
things, you'd simply transfer those skills to gas pipe,

But doesn;t always work as that was my view if I can put a bath sink and kitchen sink in why can't I do gas.
At least I'm inteligent enough to know that gas and water aren't the same.
You can;t replace a gas tape with a water tap.




for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

Yep it's simple just likie water, bit of tape blu tak or cork will do,
just like sealing a bottle of plonk.


But it's probably just as well many think you're not allowed to work on
gas. Look at the number who knock holes in walls etc without proper
support - because it's not covered by a ban on DIY.

Most walls don't have gas pipes in them.

On Monday, 11 May 2015 19:11:16 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/05/2015 12:10, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 16:42:51 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/05/2015 14:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 8 May 2015 09:22:45 UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-07, John Rumm wrote:

[26 lines snipped]

Keep in mind that that being GS registered does not automatically
mean you can work on all gas appliances. There are categories of
competancy - you need to check that the fitter you are employing
has the relevant category as well. So for example, being
competent to work on a boiler would not necessarily mean
competent to install a gas hob etc.

As I discovered when the Gas Safe plumber my kitchen fitter
summoned to refit my hob backed away, saying "I'm not qualified to
work on bottled gas".

So I fitted it. Again.

Did you get it checked out safety wise, although I'm not sure if you
have to with bottled gas. If the user insrtructions tells you how to
do it you're allowed to.

Bottled gas is usually more dangerous to work with than natural gas
since its denser than air, and can pool in enclosed spaces. (hence why
any detachable connections are usually kept outside)

Starnge I've seen plenty of heaters for indoors that use bottled gas.

Indeed there are plenty. So test your connections carefully.

Well I haven't any to test.


Most fixed installations that use LPG store the cylinders outside,

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021
A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.


along
with the user connectible bits. Its also why mobile homes etc typically
have their gas inlet points open to the outside.

And to save space.


Boats are one of the most dangerous places for LPG pooling, since
ventilating them at the lowest point has obvious downsides ;-)
But boat peole thaty use calor gas don;t have to be gassafe or the old corgi restistared and never have had to be.


As to "getting it checked" - kind of pointless, since one of the
fundamental requirements of anyone claiming competency, is being able to
adequately test your own work to prove its save.

claiming competency isn't that the main point. Most people could drive days weeks or even months before they could pass their driving test.

Not sure what your point is.

That thinking yuor compendent doesn;t make it so as captain picard would say.

If you are competent to do the work,

'IF'

you
will by default test what you have done. So what is the point of paying
to have it tested again?

Because without experinece you might not know the test were passed, looking in the mirror isn't a good way of acessing yourself.
I can kick a ball doesn't that mean I can play for England ?.
Just about everyone can paint, would you employ anyone on that basis.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

Yep it's simple just likie water, bit of tape blu tak or cork will do,
just like sealing a bottle of plonk.

As I said, not competent. So don't touch gas.

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 11:48:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

Yep it's simple just likie water, bit of tape blu tak or cork will do,
just like sealing a bottle of plonk.

As I said, not competent. So don't touch gas.

But you're wrong and aren't compendent either so I wouldn;t trust your advice on this.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 11:48:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

Yep it's simple just likie water, bit of tape blu tak or cork will
do, just like sealing a bottle of plonk.

As I said, not competent. So don't touch gas.

But you're wrong and aren't compendent either so I wouldn;t trust your
advice on this.

My advice, as always in this matter, is if you're not competent don't
touch gas.

If you choose to ignore that, it's your funeral. Hopefully not literally.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 14:03:26 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 11:48:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
for a simple job
like capping off. Regardless of what you think regs might say.

Yep it's simple just likie water, bit of tape blu tak or cork will
do, just like sealing a bottle of plonk.

As I said, not competent. So don't touch gas.

But you're wrong and aren't compendent either so I wouldn;t trust your
advice on this.

My advice, as always in this matter, is if you're not competent don't
touch gas.

Define compedent with gas is that differnt from any other form of compedence ?


If you choose to ignore that, it's your funeral. Hopefully not literally.

the trouble with gas is that it could be the others funeral too even the houses either side of me and below.
It seems the only way to prove competence is by taking the gas safe test or whatever they do to give you the cert.
I believe the leak I had was on-going for years without me knowing.
Other than a slight smell that started about a year ago, the first time I tiold the meter inspector and he couldn;t smell anything. Another one said (as I;'d left the cupboard closed for a few weeks, announced I can smell gas so called whoever they do and they came with 30mins to check it out.
he found gas re[placed the valve but still had a leak which was beyond what he could repair as he was employed by the gas company he stuck a label on it saying NOT to be switced back on.
Now is that a legal notice.
Can I work on the gas pipe provided I don't switch the gas on, I wouldn't have thought so, can I switch teh gas on NOT according to the label.
If I did fix the leak how could I test it without putting the gas back on.
The regs also state that a gas safe person is NOT allowed to sign off work a none gas person does. So evenm if I did fix the leak it seems I can't get it checked, which seems really silly to me.
Of course most on here just say all you have to be is compedent without knowing what compedence means.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
My advice, as always in this matter, is if you're not competent don't
touch gas.

Define compedent with gas is that differnt from any other form of
compedence ?

If you don't know what competent means, don't touch gas.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/05/2015 11:12, whisky-dave wrote:

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021


A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t
have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.

The fittings are designed to be easy to use and make a reliable cone
joint metal to metal seal. However it only takes scratch on a mating
surface, or damage to a hose to end up with a leak. So it still pays to
test the connections with a leak detection spray. Its also the users
responsibility to inspect hoses etc and make sure they are in a sound
condition.




--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 12/05/2015 12:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 11 May 2015 19:28:03 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/05/2015 14:37, whisky-dave wrote:
So you are saying that bottled gas is not heavier than air? or it
does not pose a risk of pooling?

Neither. Why talk about bottled gas, natural gas or the gas I'm
talking about isn't heavier than air and will not pool in the same
way as botteld gas.

In my previous response about GS and formerly CORGI having different
categories of competency for different tasks, Huge mentioned that he had
a GS fitter who declined to work on LPG for this very reason. Hence why
it was mentioned.

So it';s probbaly a good idea to check the
compedence of someone that has only ever worked on connecting a
bottle of cas to their caravan if your employing them to fix 'natural
or North sea gas'

Indeed - LPG is a separate category as far as GS are concerned.

And you are allowed to connect a gas cocker that has the baynet mount
yuorself. No training or certification is requred.

The bayonet end, yes. The threaded end that connects to the cooker is
typically a taper fitting that needs making with a PTFE seal on the
threads. Hence why that is not "user" doable in most cases.

[snip - stuff on good practice for pipe capping exercise]

If you can answer yes to all those, and you have the required
practical skills to actually do the above then your would not
necessarily be a competent gas fitter, however you would in all
likelihood be competent to carry out that one specific job.

and what proof do you have of this ? Where does it say this in the
legislation ?

I have no proof - as has been repeatedly said it does not define
competence in the primary legislation. The HSE guidance gives a very
good definition of how it would normally be assessed in a commercial
environment. However it also highlights that there are other ways of
complying with the legislation, but should it ever come to a
prosecution, it would be on the onus of the fitter to prove competence
if one of the default routes had not been taken. As has been said
before, if you leave it leaking, with an out of spec dynamic flow rate,
inadequately ventilated / flued, improperly supported or any number of
other deficiencies, then you can be fairly certain you were not competent.

The comments I made above meet *my* minimum standards or what I would
expect to see a professional fitter do for the job specified (i.e.
capping a pipe). Those are traceable to statements in the primary
legislation, details in the British standards such as BS6891
(Installation of Low pressure gas pipework of upto 35mm in domestic
premises (2nd family gas) - specification), and training guides such as
Tolly's (domestic gas installation practice (vol 2)).

To make it easier for you to check I am right I have copied and
pasted the section here from the ACOP:

Have you read what it says about the ACOP?

"Approved Code of Practice
This Code has been approved by the Health and Safety Executive, with the
consent of the Secretary of State. It gives practical advice on how to
comply with the law. If you follow the advice you will be doing enough
to comply with the law in respect of those specific matters on which the
Code gives advice. You may use alternative methods to those set out in
the Code in order to comply with the law.

However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for
breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not
follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that
you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find
you at fault.

Guidance
This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following
the guidance is not compulsory, unless specifically stated, and you are
free to take other action. But if you do follow the guidance you will
normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and safety
inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this
guidance.
Safety"

now the above PROVES that you or anyone else on here IS NOT
compendent because they have NOT kept up to date with the law. The
above is the 2013 updated version of the 1998 version.

If believe if you check the government web site, you will find that the
1998 version is still current. The ACOP is provided by HSE as additional
guidance - not to override or replace the primary legislation.

Anyway, I feel further discussion on this is rather pointless since
everything of any relevance has been said several times over.

I expect the number of individuals who carry out DIY gas work is
vanishingly small anyway, and reports from previous consultation
meetings in the days of CORGI suggest that there is insufficient data on
DIY work to form meaningful opinions (as reported here by Geoff some
time ago).

For the avoidance of doubt I am not suggesting that gas work is
something that most DIYers should "have a go" at. However I am
personally content that in the hands of a suitably diligent, skilled,
and well read individual it poses no risk. You probably feel different,
and I respect that. As the primary safety rule of thumb suggests - if
you don't feel totally confident you can do something safely - find
another way.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 13/05/2015 01:22, Jonno wrote:
John Rumm scribbled


On 12/05/2015 11:12, whisky-dave wrote:

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021


A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t
have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.

The fittings are designed to be easy to use and make a reliable cone
joint metal to metal seal. However it only takes scratch on a mating
surface, or damage to a hose to end up with a leak. So it still pays to
test the connections with a leak detection spray. Its also the users
responsibility to inspect hoses etc and make sure they are in a sound
condition.


Leak detection spray? Weak washing up liquid and a toothbrush is far
cheaper.

Indeed - and I have seen "old school" professionals use a bit of fairy
in a bottle with water for the purpose. Unlike the proper liquids
however, its not certified corrosion safe on all materials. A small tin
of the proper stuff can be had for a couple of quid anyway:

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/051.asp

and tends to be easier to keep and use than soapy water.

(quite handy to have a can handy when making up hoses for compressors as
well as for lpg connections etc IME)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 17:49:35 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
My advice, as always in this matter, is if you're not competent don't
touch gas.

Define compedent with gas is that differnt from any other form of
compedence ?

If you don't know what competent means, don't touch gas.

If you don't know what the word competent means you look it up in a dictionary.
If you want to know what competent with gas means you have to go to the place or people that made the term up. Which is why I called them last year and they didn't klnow other than suggest what was on-line. She didn't know why they used the phrase "He" when refering to a gas fitter, so the site might not as correct and box ticking as you might expect from an offical document in the year 2015.

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 01:17:56 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/05/2015 11:12, whisky-dave wrote:

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021


A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t
have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.

The fittings are designed to be easy to use and make a reliable cone
joint metal to metal seal.

Yep as I stated it's a user section which is differnt ferom that of piped gas.

However it only takes scratch on a mating
surface, or damage to a hose to end up with a leak.

This is very unlikely to happen with the gas situation I'm in.
It is likely with calor gas or those sort of gas instalations.

So it still pays to
test the connections with a leak detection spray.

That is NOT stated on the DIY gas information sites.

Its also the users
responsibility to inspect hoses etc and make sure they are in a sound
condition.

Only on user appliances which DOES NOT apply to me in this case.
If you can't tell teh diferntce between bottled calor gas, natural gas and butance gas then it's best you don't do anyhting with gas not even fill a refilable cigerette lighter.

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 01:22:44 UTC+1, Jonno wrote:
John Rumm scribbled


On 12/05/2015 11:12, whisky-dave wrote:

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021


A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t
have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.

The fittings are designed to be easy to use and make a reliable cone
joint metal to metal seal. However it only takes scratch on a mating
surface, or damage to a hose to end up with a leak. So it still pays to
test the connections with a leak detection spray. Its also the users
responsibility to inspect hoses etc and make sure they are in a sound
condition.


Leak detection spray? Weak washing up liquid and a toothbrush is far
cheaper.

Just gob on the job, a bit of mucsus never hurt anyone ;-)
I have leak detection spray, the gas fitter said it's not as good as soap and water, as it tends to evaporate quicker.

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 02:19:31 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/05/2015 12:07, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 11 May 2015 19:28:03 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/05/2015 14:37, whisky-dave wrote:
So you are saying that bottled gas is not heavier than air? or it
does not pose a risk of pooling?

Neither. Why talk about bottled gas, natural gas or the gas I'm
talking about isn't heavier than air and will not pool in the same
way as botteld gas.

In my previous response about GS and formerly CORGI having different
categories of competency for different tasks, Huge mentioned that he had
a GS fitter who declined to work on LPG for this very reason. Hence why
it was mentioned.

Oh OK well a friend of mine had his car converted to run on LPG cost a fortune
I doubt he used the standard person he'd use for house gas as far as I know he took it to a garage that did those conversions.


So it';s probbaly a good idea to check the
compedence of someone that has only ever worked on connecting a
bottle of cas to their caravan if your employing them to fix 'natural
or North sea gas'

Indeed - LPG is a separate category as far as GS are concerned.

Yep.


And you are allowed to connect a gas cocker that has the baynet mount
yuorself. No training or certification is requred.

The bayonet end, yes. The threaded end that connects to the cooker is
typically a taper fitting that needs making with a PTFE seal on the
threads. Hence why that is not "user" doable in most cases.

Yep and yuo won;t find instructions for doing this nin the user manual.
Which is why it's not considered a user job.
Similar to electrical stuff there the sticker that says no user servicable parts inside, it's a basic indication of the level required for repair or modification.





[snip - stuff on good practice for pipe capping exercise]

If you can answer yes to all those, and you have the required
practical skills to actually do the above then your would not
necessarily be a competent gas fitter, however you would in all
likelihood be competent to carry out that one specific job.

and what proof do you have of this ? Where does it say this in the
legislation ?

I have no proof - as has been repeatedly said it does not define
competence in the primary legislation.

But it does, well at least in 2015.


The HSE guidance gives a very
good definition of how it would normally be assessed in a commercial
environment. However it also highlights that there are other ways of
complying with the legislation,

Yes it does it defines compedence as someone that has all teh training of someone that had passed the neccessary course in order to be gas safe registared. In does not say tehat the worlds leading expert on LPG can come a do your gas work for you whether they are paid for it or NOT.



but should it ever come to a
prosecution, it would be on the onus of the fitter to prove competence
if one of the default routes had not been taken.

The person doing the fitting a 'fitter' implies it is their job as in a job description.

As has been said
before, if you leave it leaking, with an out of spec dynamic flow rate,
inadequately ventilated / flued, improperly supported or any number of
other deficiencies, then you can be fairly certain you were not competent..

Which makes me wonder how a DIYer can be compendent, if it isn't their job.
Because they can;t unless in the small 0.1% of the population where yuo might have someone that fits gas as a hobby or has other qualification almost exactly teh same as the HSE state as a requirement to do the job.
Just because you don;t pay someone doesn't mean that don't have to be compedent.


The comments I made above meet *my* minimum standards or what I would
expect to see a professional fitter do for the job specified (i.e.
capping a pipe).

Would you NOT expect the same level ofm compedence froma DIY fitter ?
I would for me the only differnce between getting in a professnal fitter is that the professinal fitter will charge me and will most likely be quicker at the job too.
The simplae fact is that if gassafe decide that a compendent fitter will have his or (her of course) hair parted on the left hand side then that requirement would also be for fitting DIY gas.



Those are traceable to statements in the primary
legislation, details in the British standards such as BS6891
(Installation of Low pressure gas pipework of upto 35mm in domestic
premises (2nd family gas) - specification), and training guides such as
Tolly's (domestic gas installation practice (vol 2)).

To make it easier for you to check I am right I have copied and
pasted the section here from the ACOP:

Have you read what it says about the ACOP?

what part and in what way.
For me it reads that a DIY fitter must be as compendent and well trained and skilled as someone that is paid to do the job.
Just becuase you find somneone that won;t chreg yuo that doesn;t mean any aspect on the job can be skipped missed or ignored.



"Approved Code of Practice
This Code has been approved by the Health and Safety Executive, with the
consent of the Secretary of State. It gives practical advice on how to
comply with the law. If you follow the advice you will be doing enough
to comply with the law in respect of those specific matters on which the
Code gives advice. You may use alternative methods to those set out in
the Code in order to comply with the law.

which goes back to beong compedent to do the specific job.


However, the Code has a special legal status. If you are prosecuted for
breach of health and safety law, and it is proved that you did not
follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that
you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find
you at fault.

That doesn't say much does it.
It basically says if you **** up we will prosecute you.
No where does it say don't worry if you're a DIYer we'll let you off because you don;t get paid.




Guidance
This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following
the guidance is not compulsory, unless specifically stated, and you are
free to take other action. But if you do follow the guidance you will
normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and safety
inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this
guidance.

If it's gudence only then it doesn;t need to be followed or does it ?

Safety"

now the above PROVES that you or anyone else on here IS NOT
compendent because they have NOT kept up to date with the law. The
above is the 2013 updated version of the 1998 version.

If believe if you check the government web site, you will find that the
1998 version is still current. The ACOP is provided by HSE as additional
guidance - not to override or replace the primary legislation.

The primary legislation is that you are compendent.
Then they wanted to define what they meant by it.



Anyway, I feel further discussion on this is rather pointless since
everything of any relevance has been said several times over.

I expect the number of individuals who carry out DIY gas work is
vanishingly small anyway,

No it's increasing that is the problem. Pleanty of eastern Europeans know how to fix gas, you must of seen it in various news articals. Of course when they come to the UK they do their own DIY gas.


and reports from previous consultation
meetings in the days of CORGI suggest that there is insufficient data on
DIY work to form meaningful opinions (as reported here by Geoff some
time ago).


For the avoidance of doubt I am not suggesting that gas work is
something that most DIYers should "have a go" at.

Most DIYers dont; have teh qualifications needed. Doesn;t mean they can't put of few pipes together or does it ?

However I am
personally content that in the hands of a suitably diligent, skilled,
and well read individual it poses no risk.

I'd agree provided they kept up to date with the laws.

You probably feel different,
and I respect that. As the primary safety rule of thumb suggests - if
you don't feel totally confident you can do something safely - find
another way.

The 'feel' is where the problems start. 'feeling' and being are NOT the same.
How the law sees the notices put on my 'appliance' I'm not sure about.
I'm not sure if teh gas company can put a notice on my meter saying I'm not allowed to turn the gas on and only registared gas safe people can is legal.

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 02:36:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2015 01:22, Jonno wrote:
John Rumm scribbled


On 12/05/2015 11:12, whisky-dave wrote:

but not all.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/p...C=GS-010410021


A friend has one similar to this has had it 6 years and uses it.
Now it come swith instructions on how to coinnect it up, but don;t
have to be registared or even compentent to connect it up.

The fittings are designed to be easy to use and make a reliable cone
joint metal to metal seal. However it only takes scratch on a mating
surface, or damage to a hose to end up with a leak. So it still pays to
test the connections with a leak detection spray. Its also the users
responsibility to inspect hoses etc and make sure they are in a sound
condition.


Leak detection spray? Weak washing up liquid and a toothbrush is far
cheaper.

Indeed - and I have seen "old school" professionals use a bit of fairy
in a bottle with water for the purpose.

Old school pros wouldn;t be affraid to advertise but nowerdays youre' meant to say other washing up liquids can be used.

either Unlike the proper liquids
however, its not certified corrosion safe on all materials.

I doubt many consider fairy liquid to be a dangerous substance that can't come into contact with pipes.


A small tin
of the proper stuff can be had for a couple of quid anyway:

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/051.asp

and tends to be easier to keep and use than soapy water.

Nah not easier to keep. Most households have soap and water not every
household has the proper stuff.


(quite handy to have a can handy when making up hoses for compressors as
well as for lpg connections etc IME)

as long as you have the right kit for the job.
Having the LPG kit and being compentent on LPG gas does not meat you're equally compentent any other form of gas, even if you think you are.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Which makes me wonder how a DIYer can be compendent, if it isn't their
job. Because they can;t unless in the small 0.1% of the population where
yuo might have someone that fits gas as a hobby or has other
qualification almost exactly teh same as the HSE state as a requirement
to do the job.

You mentioned capping off a gas pipe. Assuming it was 15mm copper, the
techniques to do this are in essence no different to doing it for water.

But if you don't know what differences to expect, you'd not be competent.

--
*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 13 May 2015 13:55:28 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Which makes me wonder how a DIYer can be compendent, if it isn't their
job. Because they can;t unless in the small 0.1% of the population
where yuo might have someone that fits gas as a hobby or has other
qualification almost exactly teh same as the HSE state as a requirement
to do the job.

You mentioned capping off a gas pipe. Assuming it was 15mm copper, the
techniques to do this are in essence no different to doing it for water.

But if you don't know what differences to expect, you'd not be
competent.

It's the incredibly well-named one. He's barely competent to drool at his
keyboard once he's drunk his breakfast.

On 13/05/2015 12:13, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 02:36:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2015 01:22, Jonno wrote:

Leak detection spray? Weak washing up liquid and a toothbrush is
far cheaper.

Indeed - and I have seen "old school" professionals use a bit of
fairy in a bottle with water for the purpose.

Old school pros wouldn;t be affraid to advertise but nowerdays youre'
meant to say other washing up liquids can be used.

either Unlike the proper liquids however, its not certified
corrosion safe on all materials.

I doubt many consider fairy liquid to be a dangerous substance that
can't come into contact with pipes.

Dish washing detergents often contain salt, and these can be corrosive
to certain stainless steels such as those used in the thin corrugated
"anaconda" connections between main governor valve and meter. (you also
need to be careful to keep flux off these pipes for the same reason)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 14:53:00 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2015 12:13, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 02:36:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2015 01:22, Jonno wrote:

Leak detection spray? Weak washing up liquid and a toothbrush is
far cheaper.

Indeed - and I have seen "old school" professionals use a bit of
fairy in a bottle with water for the purpose.

Old school pros wouldn;t be affraid to advertise but nowerdays you're
meant to say other washing up liquids can be used.

either Unlike the proper liquids however, its not certified
corrosion safe on all materials.

I doubt many consider fairy liquid to be a dangerous substance that
can't come into contact with pipes.

Dish washing detergents often contain salt, and these can be corrosive
to certain stainless steels such as those used in the thin corrugated
"anaconda" connections between main governor valve and meter. (you also
need to be careful to keep flux off these pipes for the same reason)

I just hope all those compendent to do DIY gas work know this then.
I would think most people that found a gas person using a dish washer detergent would think they were compedent.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
I just hope all those compendent to do DIY gas work know this then. I
would think most people that found a gas person using a dish washer
detergent would think they were compedent.

Being competent might also mean knowing what brand of washing up liquid
was safe to use. If any.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 13 May 2015 17:05:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
I just hope all those compendent to do DIY gas work know this then. I
would think most people that found a gas person using a dish washer
detergent would think they were compedent.

Being competent might also mean knowing what brand of washing up liquid
was safe to use. If any.

I doubt that. If you went up to a chemist and asked tehm which brand of washing up liquid doesn't corrode copper pipes they might know. But I wouldn't consider them safe to do gas work, and I doubt anyone else would. And I dooubt the average plumber is consodered compendent with gas because he's used copper pipes.

On Friday, 15 May 2015 17:56:09 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Why would you expect a high street chemist to know that? An industrial
chemist who tests such things might well, though.

The same reason I'd expect a gas fitter to know.

Right. Would you expect a gas fitter to know the best medicine for a
complaint?

No in the same way I wouldn't expect a plumber to know about gas fitting.

On Saturday, 16 May 2015 18:22:36 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/05/2015 13:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 15 May 2015 13:22:04 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/05/2015 16:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
whisky-dave wrote:
I just hope all those compendent to do DIY gas work know this
then. I would think most people that found a gas person using a
dish washer detergent would think they were compedent.

Being competent might also mean knowing what brand of washing up
liquid was safe to use. If any.

I think you will find most texts on the subject direct the
application of a proper leak detection spray these days.

Can you point to such texts.

Older versions of BS6891 (the current version defers to "IGE\UP\1B
Tightness Testing and Purging of Domestic Sized Natural Gas
Installations" (which basically describes the same procedures, but
changes the language to fall in line with EU conventions - so
"soundness" becomes "tightness" etc).

Tolly (vol 2) make reference in the "Testing for Gas Tightness" (for
existing installations) section 8:

"On completion of a satisfactory test, remove the test equipment,
turn on the gas supply, then, using an approved leak
detection solution, check the replaced test point and the inlet
meter connections."

So nowhere does it say you can't use soap and water.
It doesn't say you can or can't use an electronic 'nose'
It doesn't say you can or can't use a manometer.

What is does say is "using an approved leak detection solution"
I do not see a list pof approved or non approved products.
I dio NOT see a ban on such things as fairly liquid, because it rots copper pipes.





(something I rarely see professional fitters do!)

The first gas person to come out didn't
have a leak detection spray, he used an electronic meter which gave
him a specific value rather than bubbles, it beeped quite loudly. He
also used it to see if any gas had pooled in the cupboard something a
gas leak detector can't do.

That was a leak detector you numpty!

It wasn't a leak detection spray it contained no chemicals to rot a pipe
whether it be made of copper, lead or paper.


E.g:

https://www.kane.co.uk/products/ls1-...-leak-detector

(it is something you can't do with a leak detection spray though)

and you can't see exaclty where a pipe leaks with the above either can you.


A gas detector is a useful bit of kit, but not a replacement for a
manometer or electronic pressure gauge on its own since you can't do
tightness testing with it. You still need a manometer (electronic or
water) for that.

that electronic device is NOT a manometer and can not be used as one.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 15 May 2015 17:56:09 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Why would you expect a high street chemist to know that? An industrial
chemist who tests such things might well, though.

The same reason I'd expect a gas fitter to know.

Right. Would you expect a gas fitter to know the best medicine for a
complaint?

No in the same way I wouldn't expect a plumber to know about gas fitting.

Don't know why you keep on and on. The law is very clear - you need to be
competent to work on gas. And that person is almost always a 'plumber'
too. Since installing things like a boiler also involves pipework for
water. It would not be cost effective to have two people for what is
basically the same job.

And while he's there you could ask him about the best medicine for your
trouble...

--
*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 20 May 2015 13:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 15 May 2015 17:56:09 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Why would you expect a high street chemist to know that? An industrial
chemist who tests such things might well, though.

The same reason I'd expect a gas fitter to know.

Right. Would you expect a gas fitter to know the best medicine for a
complaint?

No in the same way I wouldn't expect a plumber to know about gas fitting.

Don't know why you keep on and on. The law is very clear - you need to be
competent to work on gas.

Yes that is the law. A plumber is NOT automatically considered compedent.

And that person is almost always a 'plumber'
too.

Doesn't make all plumbers compedent with gas does it.


Since installing things like a boiler also involves pipework for
water. It would not be cost effective to have two people for what is
basically the same job.

except it isn't the same job at all.


And while he's there you could ask him about the best medicine for your
trouble...

my so called trouble is ****ing idiots like yourself that doesn't know what they're talking about.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
And while he's there you could ask him about the best medicine for your
trouble...

my so called trouble is ****ing idiots like yourself that doesn't know
what they're talking about.

I keep on telling you you're not competent to work on gas, as it's obvious
by your inane questions. How is that being an idiot?

--
*Caution: I drive like you do.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 20 May 2015 14:50:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
And while he's there you could ask him about the best medicine for your
trouble...

my so called trouble is ****ing idiots like yourself that doesn't know
what they're talking about.

I keep on telling you you're not competent to work on gas,

and how do you know that considering I seem to know far more about it than you do.

as it's obvious
by your inane questions. How is that being an idiot?

Only an idiot would assume a plumer can work on gas because he's worked with copper pipe. I even asked a friend that is a plumber if he could do gas work and he said NO. He then directed me to someone that he knew was gas safe registared.
What you're getting confused by is that gas safe engineers can sometimes be compentent enough to do plumbing in the types of applianceies that a gas safe worker may meet, such as boilers.....
Some of the reasons for this is that water isn't as dangerous as gas in the average home. Most can recognise a leaky pipe dripping with water, but with gas it's more difficult to locate and fix.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Only an idiot would assume a plumer can work on gas because he's worked
with copper pipe. I even asked a friend that is a plumber if he could
do gas work and he said NO.

Then he's not competent either.

Tell you what.

Start this discussion again after you've come out of re-hab.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 20 May 2015 15:21:58 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Only an idiot would assume a plumer can work on gas because he's worked
with copper pipe. I even asked a friend that is a plumber if he could
do gas work and he said NO.

Then he's not competent either.

That's why he didn't do it. Unlike the people you're suggesting.


Tell you what.

Start this discussion again after you've come out of re-hab.

I'm not the one that needs it.

Do you realy think gas and water have the same properties just because both can be delivered via copper pipes ?