Why is everyone useless?

Rang up the local glass place to see about replacing a load of blown DG
panels in aluminium frames - probably circa 1970. The utter lack of
knowledge and confidence is astounding... Not a small job - have most of
18 blown panels to replace.

No, do not want uPVC - the waste of throwing out good ali windows with a
thermal break and DG panels that are not that *far* off Part L standards
makes me fume.

With a couple of evening of googling I have found several companies that
sell all manner of gaskets - eg:

http://shop.windowrepairshop.co.uk/e...gories/Gaskets

http://www.windowparts.co.uk/window-.../gaskets-seals


Anyway, if anyone has ali glazing expertise I'd love your opinion:

This is what I have:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...7645426719656/

Externally beaded, 4/12/4 glass, internal wedge gasket shown in flickr.

Just going to see if I can pop a transom out to see what teh external
gasket looks like.

Cheers

Tim

On 02/07/14 17:52, Tim Watts wrote:

This is what I have:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...7645426719656/

OK - Managed to pop a transom out in only 10 minutes (go me!).

Internal gasket pulled out OK.

As expected, external gasket bonded to the glass (time, not by design).

Got a slightly rounded small putty knife in betwen teh rubber and the
glass and managed to work it along without much destruction of the
rubber - few crumbs of perished material fell off, but went better than
expected.

Glass then pushed inwards, and it was surprisingly easy to pop a side
bead out:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...57645426719656

and the bead with external gasket:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...57645426719656

Can anyone help me identify the gaskets?

Photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...754074/sizes/l

and a couple of ink-prints I made for profile clarity:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...764060/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/timjwa...843289/sizes/l

I think the first of the 2 (the outer) might be a "E" or "Fir tree"
style. But I cannot see a match he

http://shop.windowrepairshop.co.uk/e...skets/E_Gasket

The first, again - not a clear winner he

http://shop.windowrepairshop.co.uk/e..._Wedge_Gaskets


But I am wondering if the rubber has shrunk or if I'm not looking in the
right place...

Any ideas?

Cheers

Tim

On 02/07/14 18:30, Tim Watts wrote:

But I am wondering if the rubber has shrunk or if I'm not looking in the
right place...

Found another - seems to have a very wide range...


http://centralextrusions.co.uk/produ...ory/e-gaskets/

Now to plough through their site and see if I can match it...

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 19:10:50 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 02/07/14 18:30, Tim Watts wrote:

But I am wondering if the rubber has shrunk or if I'm not looking in the
right place...

Found another - seems to have a very wide range...


http://centralextrusions.co.uk/produ...ory/e-gaskets/

Now to plough through their site and see if I can match it...

Are you sure that's not some sort of Rorschach test? ;-)


--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 02/07/14 22:17, Graham. wrote:

http://centralextrusions.co.uk/produ...ory/e-gaskets/

Now to plough through their site and see if I can match it...

Are you sure that's not some sort of Rorschach test? ;-)



It's making me feel like killing someone ;-o


Interesting economics:

Local respected glass place: Just worked out they are quoting £120 /m2
for very plain annealed 4/12/4 no coating.

That would be worth it if there was no buggeration. But they give me no
confidence they can do this job.

It's actually really easy (after today's disassembling) if I can match
the rubbers. Wayyy easier than uPVC. No toeing and heeling, no packers,
no prising out beads without damaging them and no whacking beads back
with a mallet.

And this lot:

http://www.clearviewbuyonline.co.uk/...ed-windows.asp

Would do me plain panels for £55/m2

and Argon, low-e for £79/m2

OK... Must conclude the hunt for the gaskets. I ordered a mixed sample
set of wedge gasket (inside) - hopefully that will come tomorrow.

I just need to try to match the external and get a sample.

Perhaps it is not an exact science - rubber does have some give...

Tim Watts wrote:
Interesting economics:

Local respected glass place: Just worked out they are quoting £120 /m2
for very plain annealed 4/12/4 no coating.

That would be worth it if there was no buggeration. But they give me no
confidence they can do this job.

It seems like the local places, the ones who advertise in the local paper,
are all geared up to do uPVC. They either don't know how to do ali, they
over-quote just to get rid of you, or they stock exactly one model and tough
if you want something else.

You have to do more digging to find those who know a bit more. The people
who do 'architectural' windows are a good bet (like sashes, 1950s steel
window replacements, commercial premises and so on). They may not be more
expensive than the local uPVC merchant but they seem to know what they're
talking about.

Theo

On 03/07/14 00:46, Theo Markettos wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
Interesting economics:

Local respected glass place: Just worked out they are quoting £120 /m2
for very plain annealed 4/12/4 no coating.

That would be worth it if there was no buggeration. But they give me no
confidence they can do this job.

It seems like the local places, the ones who advertise in the local paper,
are all geared up to do uPVC. They either don't know how to do ali, they
over-quote just to get rid of you, or they stock exactly one model and tough
if you want something else.

It does seem that way

I have a reverse vision - back in 1970, one of these local jokers told
the occupants of this house:

Fit Ali - lasts forever. You'll never need to change them...

I'd like a TARDIS so I can go back and slap him!


You have to do more digging to find those who know a bit more. The people
who do 'architectural' windows are a good bet (like sashes, 1950s steel
window replacements, commercial premises and so on). They may not be more
expensive than the local uPVC merchant but they seem to know what they're
talking about.

Good point. Not yet sure where to start as I am not even sure of the
make of the units - never seen a manufacturer's stamp anywhere. Few
random phone calls could be order...

I had a tip off from the local village Facebook group that Tunbridge
Wells GlassWorks (who are very long established) sorted someone else out
once for something similar. I'm popping in today as I'm up that way -
and I have 2 gasket samples neatly trimmed to take.

If I ever find this gasket I will buy 100m and keep the other half in an
airtight lightproof container for repairs!

Thanks!

On 03/07/14 07:57, Tim Watts wrote:

I had a tip off from the local village Facebook group that Tunbridge
Wells GlassWorks (who are very long established) sorted someone else out
once for something similar. I'm popping in today as I'm up that way -
and I have 2 gasket samples neatly trimmed to take.

Just reading their website and they do commercial too!

On 02/07/14 18:30, Tim Watts wrote:

http://www.double-glazing-parts-repa...ge-Gaskets-10m

Samples arriver and red, white and green all "fit".

Red is easy to remove, green rather more difficult. But the fit is good
- nice positive "clip" around the edge of the frame into a little groove.

I think now it's time to order some E gasket samples - if the thickness
of those is different to what I have now, I can compensate with a
slightly thicker or thinner internal gasket as the latter are availble
in 1/2mm or so increments.

I'm not really sure how tight the *should* be - uPVC puts a hell of a
load on the glass when you clip those in so I don't think there's a
danger of breaking the DG - especially as the load goes through the
spacer bar.

Too loose however and a burglar might be able to pop the external beads
out and gain entry - I suspect that's the metric to look for - "are the
beads secure?".

On 03/07/14 08:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/07/14 07:57, Tim Watts wrote:

I had a tip off from the local village Facebook group that Tunbridge
Wells GlassWorks (who are very long established) sorted someone else out
once for something similar. I'm popping in today as I'm up that way -
and I have 2 gasket samples neatly trimmed to take.

Just reading their website and they do commercial too!

No dice.

Nice enough assistant - but nope.

Wasn't particularly familiar with Pilkington Spacia either... *Sigh*
They wanted £77/m2 for plain DG panels just to supply.

This is now officially back on the DIY list as it looks like not only
will it be cheaper by far, it will be the only way I can get it done right!

I'll start small with a couple of panels - no need to order everything
in one go...

On 03/07/14 13:36, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/07/14 18:30, Tim Watts wrote:

http://www.double-glazing-parts-repa...ge-Gaskets-10m


Samples arriver and red, white and green all "fit".

Red is easy to remove, green rather more difficult. But the fit is good
- nice positive "clip" around the edge of the frame into a little groove.

Becoming something of a gasket connoisseur!

Found a better shop online...


https://www.epayments.co.uk/epages/e..._Wedge_Gaskets

are the samples I got (from someone else). Worked out something - the
coloured strip is hard plastic set into normal rubber. So they "lock"
and are hard to remove (well, once you get an end out they just pull
out). Hence the tradename "Reddilock" I guess!

I got some samples of some other types of wedge gasket too and a sample
set of E type.

Optimistically bought a couple of metres of a wedge and an E type just
to see how reglazing one transom feels when using a full length.


This:

https://www.epayments.co.uk/WebRoot/...diagram_ml.jpg

is the one that looks like mine - but it may be a tad smaller.

I'm also going to try

https://www.epayments.co.uk/WebRoot/...diagram_ml.jpg

and

https://www.epayments.co.uk/WebRoot/...diagram_ml.jpg

as I very much doubt it makes a sod's difference which way the inner fin
goes - the bloke who chose it at the factory probably picked it out of a
hat anyway.

Will come back in a few days with news....

Tim Watts wrote:
It does seem that way

I have a reverse vision - back in 1970, one of these local jokers told
the occupants of this house:

Fit Ali - lasts forever. You'll never need to change them...

I'd like a TARDIS so I can go back and slap him!

45 years ain't bad. It's puzzling how aluminium is suddenly unfashionable
and uPVC is 'in'. Particularly aluminium where cold bridging is avoided (ie
not 1970s ali).

I've had uPVC windows fail after much less time. The handles fall off - it
turns out they're self-tapped into thin steel that takes all the stress of
the handle. When the windows fit as badly as these did, closing them was
bending the frame and putting too much stress on the handle. Of course,
the handles weren't standardised, and once the self-tapping was gone that
was it.

And it's funny how few painted steel windows one sees nowadays. I wonder
why that could be...

Good point. Not yet sure where to start as I am not even sure of the
make of the units - never seen a manufacturer's stamp anywhere. Few
random phone calls could be order...

'Commercial windows' may be a good place to start, though they might not
be bothered if you aren't ordering a hundred...

Theo

On 03/07/14 17:15, Theo Markettos wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
It does seem that way

I have a reverse vision - back in 1970, one of these local jokers told
the occupants of this house:

Fit Ali - lasts forever. You'll never need to change them...

I'd like a TARDIS so I can go back and slap him!

45 years ain't bad.

I think long term - it's not "good" until it's done a 100 years

I've cleaned these up with T-Cut, new handles. They look very smart.

It's puzzling how aluminium is suddenly unfashionable
and uPVC is 'in'. Particularly aluminium where cold bridging is avoided (ie
not 1970s ali).

I have an epoxy thermal break - no condensation on the inside generally
except in the bedroom sometimes at night in winter due to the curtains
preventing air circulation.

Modern ali have a fantastic thermal break system


I've had uPVC windows fail after much less time. The handles fall off - it
turns out they're self-tapped into thin steel that takes all the stress of
the handle. When the windows fit as badly as these did, closing them was
bending the frame and putting too much stress on the handle. Of course,
the handles weren't standardised, and once the self-tapping was gone that
was it.

I've seen "repair" tapper screws that may help.

My uPVC are rosewood finish so come with a pretty solid steel frame
inside - hopefully that won't be a problem. But they will probably fall
out before these ali ones do!


And it's funny how few painted steel windows one sees nowadays. I wonder
why that could be...

They were a bugger for cold bridging - I took 3 out and put uPVC in.

Good point. Not yet sure where to start as I am not even sure of the
make of the units - never seen a manufacturer's stamp anywhere. Few
random phone calls could be order...

'Commercial windows' may be a good place to start, though they might not
be bothered if you aren't ordering a hundred...

Thank you sir

Tim Watts wrote:

Why is everyone useless?

Rang up the local glass place to see about replacing a load of blown DG
panels in aluminium frames -

did you try A & M Glaziers Hastings

-

On 06/07/14 00:10, Mark wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

Why is everyone useless?

Rang up the local glass place to see about replacing a load of blown DG
panels in aluminium frames -

did you try A & M Glaziers Hastings

-


Not yet - I did glimpse them in the Yellow Pages list.

Are they good with weird old stuff?


On an aside, I have a massive sample of gaskets so I'm quite hopeful of
a good DIY solution.

Tim Watts wrote:

On 06/07/14 00:10, Mark wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

Why is everyone useless?

Rang up the local glass place to see about replacing a load of blown DG
panels in aluminium frames -

did you try A & M Glaziers Hastings

-


Not yet - I did glimpse them in the Yellow Pages list.

Are they good with weird old stuff?


On an aside, I have a massive sample of gaskets so I'm quite hopeful of
a good DIY solution.


yes they are very competitive for making new sealed glass units which is
what i thought you were after, perhaps not so for just old unusual glazing
gaskets from stock.

-