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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Why are light switches not earthed?
When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth.
How come? Ta. |
#2
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote:
When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? |
#3
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote:
On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. |
#4
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 11/02/2014 23:02, R D S wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. Aren't the screws shrouded in plastic on the inside? |
#5
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:10:53 +0000, GB wrote:
On 11/02/2014 23:02, R D S wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. Aren't the screws shrouded in plastic on the inside? Yeah, but the screws are metal and i'm pretty sure there's a metal track between them. If the live wire came unattached from it's terminal it could potentially cause danger. Not that i'm concerned, just surprised. |
#6
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:25:01 +0000, R D S wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:10:53 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 23:02, R D S wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. Aren't the screws shrouded in plastic on the inside? Yeah, but the screws are metal and i'm pretty sure there's a metal track between them. If the live wire came unattached from it's terminal it could potentially cause danger. Not that i'm concerned, just surprised. In a possible answer to my own question... The screws appear well contained and i'm guessing that modern switches don't have the conductive track between the screw holes. |
#7
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 11/02/2014 23:02, R D S wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. Many shallow plastic pattresses include a terminal for "parking" the earth. There should be limited scope for the screws becoming live - and even if they were they pose a limited shock risk since you can't easily get a hold of them! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#8
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In article , John Rumm
wrote: On 11/02/2014 23:02, R D S wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:56:52 +0000, GB wrote: On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. What were you planning to earth? Or do you just want to have a terminal to connect two earth wires? Metal switches have an earth terminal, as do metal back boxes. I'm just a bit surprised that plastic switch/boxes have no earth protection, after all there is a live wire in there and a pair of screws that could be 'fingered'. Many shallow plastic pattresses include a terminal for "parking" the earth. Certainly the one I fiited on Monday had one. There should be limited scope for the screws becoming live - and even if they were they pose a limited shock risk since you can't easily get a hold of them! -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
#9
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 12/02/2014 00:06, John Rumm wrote:
Many shallow plastic pattresses include a terminal for "parking" the earth. Yes, although dry-lining boxes are usually sold without this. There is a place for an earth terminal in the moulding though, and the terminals are (I presume) available separately. And it's not just for parking - you may need to join the CPCs of two or more cables - e.g. where you have a 2+E 'switch drop' and a 3+E cable going off to a second 2-way switch. There should be limited scope for the screws becoming live - and even if they were they pose a limited shock risk since you can't easily get a hold of them! Exactly so. There is a specific exemption in the wiring regs (BS 7671): 410.3.9 The provision for fault protection may be omitted for the following equipment: [...] (iii) Exposed-conductive-parts which, owing to their reduced dimensions (approximate maximum of 50 mm x 50 mm) or their disposition, cannot be gripped or come into significant contact with a part of the human body and provided that connection with a protective conductor could only be made with difficulty or would be unreliable. NOTE: This exemption applies, for example, to bolts, rivets, nameplates, cable clips, screws and other fixings. -- Andy |
#10
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 12/02/2014 15:15, Andy Wade wrote:
On 12/02/2014 00:06, John Rumm wrote: Many shallow plastic pattresses include a terminal for "parking" the earth. Yes, although dry-lining boxes are usually sold without this. There is a place for an earth terminal in the moulding though, and the terminals are (I presume) available separately. Don't think I have ever seen anyone selling them... Lump of chockie block seems the common solution! (although a wago would be my choice for CPC continuity these days) And it's not just for parking - you may need to join the CPCs of two or more cables - e.g. where you have a 2+E 'switch drop' and a 3+E cable going off to a second 2-way switch. Indeed, (I did mentioned that in a previous post, but CBA to repeat ;-) There should be limited scope for the screws becoming live - and even if they were they pose a limited shock risk since you can't easily get a hold of them! Exactly so. There is a specific exemption in the wiring regs (BS 7671): 410.3.9 The provision for fault protection may be omitted for the following equipment: [...] (iii) Exposed-conductive-parts which, owing to their reduced dimensions (approximate maximum of 50 mm x 50 mm) or their disposition, cannot be gripped or come into significant contact with a part of the human body and provided that connection with a protective conductor could only be made with difficulty or would be unreliable. NOTE: This exemption applies, for example, to bolts, rivets, nameplates, cable clips, screws and other fixings. The contact pins in a traditional BC lamp holder would be another good example... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#11
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:15:05 +0000, Andy Wade wrote:
(iii) Exposed-conductive-parts which, owing to their reduced dimensions (approximate maximum of 50 mm x 50 mm) or their disposition, cannot be gripped or come into significant contact with a part of the human body and provided that connection with a protective conductor could only be made with difficulty or would be unreliable. Given the times that we live in, this surprises me. I was looking at a back box today and with 12mm plasterboard there is a a few mm of bare metal screw that could (quite unlikely I know) come into contact with a live. And yes, it would be moderately difficult to get a good contact between finger and screw, and then you could only prod it and not get a grip on it. But as there's always an earth available it baffles me that the usually overly safety obsessed nannies have decided that we don't need to bother with it. In fact it's created a minor inconvenience. |
#12
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In message , R D S writes
When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. Presumably because they are non-conducting -- bert |
#13
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:24:40 +0000, bert ] wrote:
In message , R D S writes When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. Presumably because they are non-conducting Nevertheless, afair, the plastic backboxes have an earth terminal post to allow metal switch plates to be earthed[1]. The plastic switch plates don't need this protection and the screws are quite well isolated from possible contact with the live once fitted. There might be a slight risk when removing the plate but the lighting circuit fuse should be pulled out when doing this sort of work anyway so even this risk doesn't matter. If you're going to test whilst the switch plate is unscrewed from the backplate, the screws will be absent and you'll be mindful of other safety concerns anyway (like not poking your fingers into the wiring). In short, there's absolutely no need to earth the fixing screws on a plastic switchplate (and an earth terminal post is available to connect a metal switch plate to the safety earth in accordance to the regulations). [1] It's been a while since I last looked at the backside of a plastic backbox but I think I've seen some designs were the faceplate screw thread inserts are rivetted to a track which joins to the earth terminal post (which would guarantee that a metal switchplate, once installed, will be automatically earthed via the fixing screws without the need for a seperate earth strap connection). -- Regards, J B Good |
#14
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In article ,
Johny B Good wrote: On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:24:40 +0000, bert ] wrote: In message , R D S writes When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. Presumably because they are non-conducting Nevertheless, afair, the plastic backboxes have an earth terminal post to allow metal switch plates to be earthed[1]. The plastic switch plates don't need this protection and the screws are quite well isolated from possible contact with the live once fitted. There might be a slight risk when removing the plate but the lighting circuit fuse should be pulled out when doing this sort of work anyway so even this risk doesn't matter. If you're going to test whilst the switch plate is unscrewed from the backplate, the screws will be absent and you'll be mindful of other safety concerns anyway (like not poking your fingers into the wiring). In short, there's absolutely no need to earth the fixing screws on a plastic switchplate (and an earth terminal post is available to connect a metal switch plate to the safety earth in accordance to the regulations). When I re-wired my house (new to me) in 1965, the Electricity Board checked the earth on all screws including light swtches. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
#15
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In article ,
R D S wrote: When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Nothing to earth? But the dry lining box should have a terminal to make off the earth to - there for later use if the switch is changed to metal. -- *A fool and his money are soon partying * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#16
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 11/02/2014 22:54, R D S wrote:
When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? cos they are plastic ;-) (the chances of them becoming live due to fault conditions are limited to slim and fat) (the earth will still be present in the cables - that should be terminated somewhere to preserve continuity and keep it out of the way) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#17
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Why are light switches not earthed?
Well maybe you are not supposed to use the plastic boxes?
I suppose if you really wanted to earth them you could achieve it with a bit ofwire and a tag. I would not use a plastic box for a dimmer, I've come a cropper that way too many times in the past when the metal plate got shorted internally. I guess plastic dimmers are much safer! Brian -- From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active "R D S" wrote in message ... When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. |
#18
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In article ,
Brian_Gaff wrote: Well maybe you are not supposed to use the plastic boxes? I suppose if you really wanted to earth them you could achieve it with a bit ofwire and a tag. I would not use a plastic box for a dimmer, I've come a cropper that way too many times in the past when the metal plate got shorted internally. I guess plastic dimmers are much safer! All the modern metal plate switches etc I've seen have an earth terminal on them. So they could safely be fitted in a plastic box. -- *Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#19
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 12/02/2014 15:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Brian_Gaff wrote: Well maybe you are not supposed to use the plastic boxes? I suppose if you really wanted to earth them you could achieve it with a bit ofwire and a tag. I would not use a plastic box for a dimmer, I've come a cropper that way too many times in the past when the metal plate got shorted internally. I guess plastic dimmers are much safer! All the modern metal plate switches etc I've seen have an earth terminal on them. So they could safely be fitted in a plastic box. I think its a pretty safe bet that if the accessory requires earthing, it will included a dedicated terminal (or two) for the purpose. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#20
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Why are light switches not earthed?
In article ,
John Rumm wrote: All the modern metal plate switches etc I've seen have an earth terminal on them. So they could safely be fitted in a plastic box. I think its a pretty safe bet that if the accessory requires earthing, it will included a dedicated terminal (or two) for the purpose. They do now - but it wasn't always the case. ISTR earth terminals for grid switches being an optional extra. -- *'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#21
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Why are light switches not earthed?
"R D S" wrote in message ... When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. The reason anything is earthed is so that it cannot be at any voltage above the general mass of the ground, ie you can't get an electric shock. But if there's nothing metal to touch, there's nothing to earth. Exceptions are made, where no earth is needed. Eg double insulated (two layers of insulation) All insulated. (Nothing metal to touch) |
#22
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Why are light switches not earthed?
On 12/02/2014 18:27, harryagain wrote:
"R D S" wrote in message ... When using plastic switches and a dry lining back box there's no earth. How come? Ta. The reason anything is earthed is so that it cannot be at any voltage above the general mass of the ground, ie you can't get an electric shock. If one were being a pedant, you could highlight that limiting voltage rise is indeed a fortuitous effect of earthing, but not its prime purpose. Its earthed to ensure rapid disconnection of the supply. (if you think about it, the best earthing is likely to achieve at the point of a fault is limiting the voltage to about half mains) But if there's nothing metal to touch, there's nothing to earth. Exceptions are made, where no earth is needed. Eg double insulated (two layers of insulation) All insulated. (Nothing metal to touch) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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