On 24/09/2013 09:00, harryagain wrote:

The reason many are sub4Kw is that the smallest charge (money) band is
0-4Kw.
The next is 4-10Kw, too big to fir on most domestic house roofs.

More to the point, 16 A per phase is the maximum current you're allowed
to back-feed into the LV mains without elaborate protection
arrangements and approval of the DNO. (See ENA Engineering
Recommendation G83/2.) This limits you to about 3.8 kVA on a
single-phase connection.

--
Andy

On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a bit of smoothing.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2013 09:00:30 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.co.uk...
On Sun, 22 Sep 2013 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT), jim wrote:

One moment it's feeding amps into the local supply, the next it may be
extracting them. To get a reversible current flow, there must be a pd
(potential difference) between the 2 situations. How does it do this
trick? (and avoid flickering lights etc).

The volts do change but not enough to notice. The voltage here drops
by about 8 V when the E7 kicks in and 11 kW is instantly applied. A
domestic PV array in bright sunlight produces less than 4 kW, only a
bit above a rapid boil kettle...

Arrays cab be as big as you like/can fit in/afford.

The reason many are sub4Kw is that the smallest charge (money) band is
0-4Kw.
The next is 4-10Kw, too big to fir on most domestic house roofs.


1) Solar panels don't need to be fitted to roofs

2) More than one supply and corresponding solar installation receiving a FIT
payment per property was permitted

3)With a property having space for an array of more than 4kW you could size each
'installation' to be sub 4kW and optimise the return.

What do you mean you didn't have the common sense all those years back to
request another metered conneciton from the DNO and could have got, in cash
terms twice as much as you extort now from all those in fuel poverty?

--

In message , at 09:05:56 on Tue, 24 Sep
2013, harryagain remarked:

they also say they are using LED lights in their (semi-underground)
car park to save energy, but it's obvious they are fluorescents.


Why is it obvious?

Because it was only opened last year, and why would they put:

Some LED tubes fit into fluorescent light bodies.
http://www.earlsmann.co.uk/sections/product/id/15

....LED replacements in fluorescent fittings, rather than use
purpose-built LED fittings?
--
Roland Perry

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct thing
to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Yet you don't know the operating principle of the most numerous inverters
made these days?
About as much as you know about nuclear power.
ie FA

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

You think?

I can do it in a line of code.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/13 19:05, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays'
about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches
and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

You think?

I can do it in a line of code.


Now do it at 3KW....


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:

Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.



A few electronic switches and a micro controller.
They just get a bit expensive as the power goes up.

On 25/09/2013 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/09/13 19:05, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays'
about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches
and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

You think?

I can do it in a line of code.


Now do it at 3KW....

That dictates what is on the end of the ADC, not how you get it to
produce a sine wave.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:

What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.

Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.

Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.


It depends how much distortion you can accept, but you've lost this
argument before.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:06:36 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

harryagain wrote:


Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.


It depends how much distortion you can accept, but you've lost this
argument before.

What would Russ Andrews do?


--

The Other Mike wrote:
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:06:36 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

harryagain wrote:

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.


It depends how much distortion you can accept, but you've lost this
argument before.

What would Russ Andrews do?

Use gold plated cables, probably.

With a special weave to remove the inevitable distortion and RF
interference from the generator.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it, there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays'
about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

You think?

I can do it in a line of code.

I see you are the theory man.
Actually building a stand alone one that makes a stepless wave is difficult.

But unnessary in the case of a grid tie inverter which uses the mains as a
"model"
ie works like an amplifier.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:

Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.



A few electronic switches and a micro controller.
They just get a bit expensive as the power goes up.

Ah. The micro controller,

On 26/09/13 08:00, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 25/09/2013 17:49, harryagain wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays'
about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a
bit of smoothing.

Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.

You think?

I can do it in a line of code.

I see you are the theory man.
Actually building a stand alone one that makes a stepless wave is difficult.

But unnessary in the case of a grid tie inverter which uses the mains as a
"model"
ie works like an amplifier.


How efficient, harry, do you thing a 3KW audio amplifier running at 50HZ
would be? Using class A, and Class B technologies.

You have no idea do you?



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it, there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.


Harry..

Obtain an Oscilloscope then connect that to the output of any
transformer or even direct to the mains and observe the mains waveform..

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...
--
Tony Sayer

In article om,
dennis@home scribeth thus
On 24/09/2013 10:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct
thing to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.


Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a bit of smoothing.

Den..

Its not quite that simple as you might realise if you know anything
about it...
--
Tony Sayer

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:06:36 +0100, John Williamson
wrote:

harryagain wrote:


Creating a sine wave using electronics is not straightforward.


It depends how much distortion you can accept, but you've lost this
argument before.

What would Russ Andrews do?



Simples!.. Employ Harry to write his advert copy;!...
--
Tony Sayer

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 24/09/13 09:07, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/13 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:


What is weird about giving the true facts?

Dunno, but its a total rarity in any discussions about energy
generation.

After considerable thought I have decided that the most succinct thing
to
be asiad about what 'everybody knows' and what 'everybody syays' about
electrical power generation is that it's *completely wrong*.


Well you certainly know nothing about inverters.


I've designed more of them than you have had solar panels fitted.




Yet you don't know the operating principle of the most numerous inverters
made these days?
About as much as you know about nuclear power.
ie FA




Go on harry, enlighten us .. and no plagiarising please...

--
Tony Sayer

On 26/09/2013 08:55, tony sayer wrote:

Maybe but solar inverters aren't really inverters at all.
They have much higher DC input voltages than the output AC voltage.
You "only" need to change it to sine output using suitable switches and
a bit of smoothing.

Den..

Its not quite that simple as you might realise if you know anything
about it...


Well everything is difficult for you.

On 26/09/2013 08:54, tony sayer wrote:
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it, there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.


Harry..

Obtain an Oscilloscope then connect that to the output of any
transformer or even direct to the mains and observe the mains waveform..

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

We might have to adjust harry's hit rate.... previously I worked on the
principle that 80% of what he posted would be wrong. Seems that might
have been over generous.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2013 23:28, The Other Mike wrote:

What would Russ Andrews do?



Apply a bit of snake oil to the terminals to reduce the distortion.


--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap
on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my
experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it, there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so
perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.


Harry..

Obtain an Oscilloscope then connect that to the output of any
transformer or even direct to the mains and observe the mains waveform..

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors, gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap
on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my
experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it, there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so
perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.


Harry..

Obtain an Oscilloscope then connect that to the output of any
transformer or even direct to the mains and observe the mains waveform..

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors, gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




..

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..


--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Far more of an issue is synchronising the frequencies and putting crap
on
the local supply or even creating RFI from the inverter in my
experience,
which is not much here, but from those who rushed out and got it,
there
have been issues.. grin.

Brian

Drivel.
Grid tie inverters are relatively cheap because they don't have to
create
their own sine wave out of nothing.
They are more like an amplifier , input sinewave from the mains, so
perfect
sine wave and perfectly sychronised.


Harry..

Obtain an Oscilloscope then connect that to the output of any
transformer or even direct to the mains and observe the mains waveform..

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.


Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.


Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..


I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave? Every effort is
made t omake it a sine wave.
Sine waves comenaturally toany rotating electrical device
Any deviation reduces the efficiency of any AC magnetic device

harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

To elaborate, if the voltage goes outside parameters, the core can become
saturated so leading to the clipping effect.

The current has nothing to do with it.
If voltage is constant, the flux in the core is constant from zero load to
full load.

On 29/09/13 18:45, harryagain wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

To elaborate, if the voltage goes outside parameters, the core can become
saturated so leading to the clipping effect.

The current has nothing to do with it.
If voltage is constant, the flux in the core is constant from zero load to
full load.


Proving once again that harry knows the square root of **** all about
transformers.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 29/09/13 18:45, harryagain wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does
look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that
I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

To elaborate, if the voltage goes outside parameters, the core can become
saturated so leading to the clipping effect.

The current has nothing to do with it.
If voltage is constant, the flux in the core is constant from zero load
to
full load.


Proving once again that harry knows the square root of **** all about
transformers.


You really are a thick **** TurNiP.

Why do you suppose that "iron losses" in AC motors and tranformers are
almost constant regardless of load.
You really have little education on electrical theory.

There is an explanation for idiots here. See if you can undersatand it.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...5225019AA7vJEf

On 30/09/13 07:52, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 29/09/13 18:45, harryagain wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does
look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that
I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

To elaborate, if the voltage goes outside parameters, the core can become
saturated so leading to the clipping effect.

The current has nothing to do with it.
If voltage is constant, the flux in the core is constant from zero load
to
full load.


Proving once again that harry knows the square root of **** all about
transformers.


You really are a thick **** TurNiP.

Why do you suppose that "iron losses" in AC motors and tranformers are
almost constant regardless of load.

Not for the reasons you suppose.

You really have little education on electrical theory.


:-)

There is an explanation for idiots here. See if you can undersatand it.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...5225019AA7vJEf


No harry, this is not an explanatin. The second post is correct, but you
didnt read that.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.


Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..


I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave? Every effort is
made t omake it a sine wave.
Sine waves comenaturally toany rotating electrical device
Any deviation reduces the efficiency of any AC magnetic device



Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..


--
Tony Sayer

On 29/09/2013 18:35, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

The primary cause of mains distortion these days is discharge lighting
and switched mode power supplies.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is? Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper
and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid
computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or
not?..

No.


Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does look
like;!..


I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave? Every effort is
made t omake it a sine wave.
Sine waves comenaturally toany rotating electrical device
Any deviation reduces the efficiency of any AC magnetic device



Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 30/09/13 07:52, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 29/09/13 18:45, harryagain wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
.. .
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message

Have you got an Oscilloscope or not?..

No.

Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does
look
like;!..

I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience
that
I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional
spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave?

Theory and practice always agree in your world, don't they?

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html


That sort of thing is caused by an iron core somewhere being driven
into
saturation (ie overloaded.)
Probably a local transformer.

To elaborate, if the voltage goes outside parameters, the core can
become
saturated so leading to the clipping effect.

The current has nothing to do with it.
If voltage is constant, the flux in the core is constant from zero load
to
full load.


Proving once again that harry knows the square root of **** all about
transformers.


You really are a thick **** TurNiP.

Why do you suppose that "iron losses" in AC motors and tranformers are
almost constant regardless of load.

Not for the reasons you suppose.

The iron losses are constant because the flux is constant.

You really have little education on electrical theory.


:-)

There is an explanation for idiots here. See if you can undersatand it.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...5225019AA7vJEf


No harry, this is not an explanatin. The second post is correct, but you
didnt read that.


You dopey pillock.
The second answer does not contradict the first.

harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...