On 01/10/2013 19:04, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:37, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 30/09/13 22:49, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up?

Tens of megawatts.

I think that's a little on the high side, megawatts, yes.

3-4MW is about right for each of the datacentres we have servers in,
what fraction of those MW are sipped during the peaks of the sine wave?
How many "big" UK datacentres? 40-50 maybe?


Just about ANY electronics tends to have an SMPS strapped on it. And
they
are ALL peak clippers.

It's a huge change from the days when the load on the grid was largely
resistive (lighting) and slightly inductive (electric motors).

Peak currents are much higher than the average..the current waveform is
far from sinusoidal. This leads to far higher losses in the resistive
parts of the grid.


Twaddle.

Yes, but only if by "twaddle" you mean, "yes that is a pretty good
description", then you are right.

Here I drew it for you:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/e/e...simulation.png

The waveform shows voltage at R2 and current through it.

There is a bridge (full wave) rectifier feeding a resistor & capacitor in
parallel

Correct - and it represents the typical front end of most SMPSUs.

(R1 is there simply to represent the back end load part of the PSU, R2
is simply a measurement point).

hence I is leading V.

No, its not leading in the traditional sense.

Not a circuit that serves any useful purpose.

Have a look at some typical SMPSU circuits - rectifying the incoming
mains, and using the rectified DC to charge a capacitor is a common
feature.

The resulting significant non linearity of the current load has led to
the required introduction of PFC in the input stages of the PSU.

The following should be simple enough to understand:

http://powersupplyblog.tm.agilent.co...er-factor.html


It might represent a bit of wire.

Huh?

And not a "Peak clipper"

Look at the current waveform... when does it peak? If its going to cause
a voltage drop on the supply, where in the waveform do you expect it
will cause it.

And the power consumed is trivial.

or significant - it depends on the component values. However the
relevant point is the nature of the current waveform and the distorting
effect this has on the supply.

What bearing has this on the OP?

I am sure you are bright enough to work it out.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 19:04, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:37, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 30/09/13 22:49, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up?

Tens of megawatts.

I think that's a little on the high side, megawatts, yes.

3-4MW is about right for each of the datacentres we have servers in,
what fraction of those MW are sipped during the peaks of the sine
wave?
How many "big" UK datacentres? 40-50 maybe?


Just about ANY electronics tends to have an SMPS strapped on it. And
they
are ALL peak clippers.

It's a huge change from the days when the load on the grid was largely
resistive (lighting) and slightly inductive (electric motors).

Peak currents are much higher than the average..the current waveform
is
far from sinusoidal. This leads to far higher losses in the resistive
parts of the grid.


Twaddle.

Yes, but only if by "twaddle" you mean, "yes that is a pretty good
description", then you are right.

Here I drew it for you:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/e/e...simulation.png

The waveform shows voltage at R2 and current through it.

There is a bridge (full wave) rectifier feeding a resistor & capacitor in
parallel

Correct - and it represents the typical front end of most SMPSUs.

(R1 is there simply to represent the back end load part of the PSU, R2 is
simply a measurement point).

hence I is leading V.

No, its not leading in the traditional sense.

Not a circuit that serves any useful purpose.

Have a look at some typical SMPSU circuits - rectifying the incoming
mains, and using the rectified DC to charge a capacitor is a common
feature.

The resulting significant non linearity of the current load has led to the
required introduction of PFC in the input stages of the PSU.

The following should be simple enough to understand:

http://powersupplyblog.tm.agilent.co...er-factor.html


It might represent a bit of wire.

Huh?

And not a "Peak clipper"

Look at the current waveform... when does it peak? If its going to cause a
voltage drop on the supply, where in the waveform do you expect it will
cause it.

And the power consumed is trivial.

or significant - it depends on the component values. However the relevant
point is the nature of the current waveform and the distorting effect this
has on the supply.

What bearing has this on the OP?

I am sure you are bright enough to work it out.


Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

Most of it goes on fans and pumps shifting air and water.

The fans that are drawing air from the cold aisle and exhausting it to the
hot aisle are *internal* to the servers, therefore powered by the DC PSU
in the servers.


That part of it is trivial. The large part is removing the heat from the
building.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the roof
for example.

On 02/10/13 08:26, harryagain wrote:
...... extirely cancellled out


Is that what happens when a train is derailed?

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 02/10/13 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the roof
for example.


I see sums are not yur strong point



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.



Then why do they cause waveform distortion and why does the mains get
distorted?..

Even with very light transformer loading's?..
--
Tony Sayer

it's not them that does it.



So -what- does it then ?..

Be a bit more specific please...
--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 2 Oct 2013 08:26:14 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

So all that money, in excess of a billion quid in England and Wales, spent on
static VAR compensators, shunt reactors, capacitor banks, etc is simply a waste
of money then?

You better get onto OFGEM straight away and get them to investigate this massive
waste of money.

Just so you know where they are when you have a word with OFGEM, have a look at
page 17 of this document. Look for the things in magenta and green.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/B9B5D93B-9BDE-4C8D-B5A5-0F34FCED0E99/47005/NETSSYS2011AppendixA.pdf

Please let us know how you get on with OFGEM. You may want to let the Daily
Mail know while you are at it. They are well known and have an international
reputation for accurate, non biased reporting of 'facts' They will love your
story.

--

On 02/10/2013 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the roof
for example.



Don't be silly the PV panels stop most of the heat reaching the roof and
the insulation stops most of what does getting into the building.

On 02/10/2013 08:26, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 19:04, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:37, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 30/09/13 22:49, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up?

Tens of megawatts.

I think that's a little on the high side, megawatts, yes.

3-4MW is about right for each of the datacentres we have servers in,
what fraction of those MW are sipped during the peaks of the sine
wave?
How many "big" UK datacentres? 40-50 maybe?


Just about ANY electronics tends to have an SMPS strapped on it. And
they
are ALL peak clippers.

It's a huge change from the days when the load on the grid was largely
resistive (lighting) and slightly inductive (electric motors).

Peak currents are much higher than the average..the current waveform
is
far from sinusoidal. This leads to far higher losses in the resistive
parts of the grid.


Twaddle.

Yes, but only if by "twaddle" you mean, "yes that is a pretty good
description", then you are right.

Here I drew it for you:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/e/e...simulation.png

The waveform shows voltage at R2 and current through it.

There is a bridge (full wave) rectifier feeding a resistor & capacitor in
parallel

Correct - and it represents the typical front end of most SMPSUs.

(R1 is there simply to represent the back end load part of the PSU, R2 is
simply a measurement point).

hence I is leading V.

No, its not leading in the traditional sense.

Not a circuit that serves any useful purpose.

Have a look at some typical SMPSU circuits - rectifying the incoming
mains, and using the rectified DC to charge a capacitor is a common
feature.

The resulting significant non linearity of the current load has led to the
required introduction of PFC in the input stages of the PSU.

The following should be simple enough to understand:

http://powersupplyblog.tm.agilent.co...er-factor.html


It might represent a bit of wire.

Huh?

And not a "Peak clipper"

Look at the current waveform... when does it peak? If its going to cause a
voltage drop on the supply, where in the waveform do you expect it will
cause it.

And the power consumed is trivial.

or significant - it depends on the component values. However the relevant
point is the nature of the current waveform and the distorting effect this
has on the supply.

What bearing has this on the OP?

I am sure you are bright enough to work it out.


Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

Perhaps, but we are not talking about traditional capacitive reactance
here. With a capacitive reactance you would get a sine wave current
load, leading the voltage waveform.

What we have here is pulse waveform contained within the temporal
envelope of the voltage waveform.

This tends to peak clip the voltage waveform, and also results in
significant harmonic distortion to the voltage waveform.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013 08:26:14 +0100, "harryagain"

wrote:

Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the
massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

So all that money, in excess of a billion quid in England and Wales, spent
on
static VAR compensators, shunt reactors, capacitor banks, etc is simply a
waste
of money then?

You better get onto OFGEM straight away and get them to investigate this
massive
waste of money.

Just so you know where they are when you have a word with OFGEM, have a
look at
page 17 of this document. Look for the things in magenta and green.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/B9B5D93B-9BDE-4C8D-B5A5-0F34FCED0E99/47005/NETSSYS2011AppendixA.pdf

Please let us know how you get on with OFGEM. You may want to let the
Daily
Mail know while you are at it. They are well known and have an
international
reputation for accurate, non biased reporting of 'facts' They will love
your
story.

I see you are full of **** too

Power factor correction consists of banks of capacitors (mostly),
to correct the lagging power factor caused by inductive loads. (eg Motors)
It can be done coincidently bu other means, not usually viable.

Severely lagging power factor cause excessive current (and losses) in the
distribution system.
So there is a financial penalty imposed. Usually by a peak load charge
which is measured in Kva not Kw.
So it becomes fanancially worthwhile to correct the powerfactor.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 02/10/2013 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the roof
for example.



Don't be silly the PV panels stop most of the heat reaching the roof and
the insulation stops most of what does getting into the building.

The air layer between the roof and solar panels does that.
Like those things they used to sell to "tropicalise" Landrovers.
Dozy ****s used to fit them and pretended they took their Landrovers to
Africa &c

"Huge" wrote in message
...

On 01/10/2013 19:14, harryagain wrote:
It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

Solar gain? Datacentres don't have windows, you useless sack of pus.

You dozy pillock.
The whole world is heated by solar gain.
You don't need windows.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harryagain wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
A Perfick sine wave is the one thing you will not see;!...

And how exactly will you see how perfect or not perfect it is?
Just
eyeball
it?
Heh heh, You are as bad as TurNiP

The only way to be absolutely sure is to get a piece of graph paper
and
some
sine tables and draw your own.
And those tables were derived geometrically not by some stupid
computer.
Similar geometry to that going on in an alternator.
And any non sinusiodal AC passed through inductors and capacitors,
gradually
gets to look more and more like a sine wave interestingly.




.

There are lot of distortions on the mains waveform.


Answer this question if you will. Have you got an Oscilloscope or
not?..

No.


Well perhaps you should then you'll se what the mains really does
look
like;!..


I saw it years ago. It was only a mildly interesting experience that I
wouldn't be interested in repeating.

I don't recall any significant "distortion". Just an occasional spike.

Why do you suppose the mains would have a non sine wave? Every effort
is
made t omake it a sine wave.
Sine waves comenaturally toany rotating electrical device
Any deviation reduces the efficiency of any AC magnetic device



Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.


True, but a few "not very good" fluorescent lights can make mains cables
radiate on medium wave for quite a long way.

But that is not going to clip the mains sine wave form.
Just an annoyance on your radio.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it
usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.



Then why do they cause waveform distortion and why does the mains get
distorted?..

Even with very light transformer loading's?..
--
Tony Sayer

it's not them that does it.



So -what- does it then ?..

Be a bit more specific please...
--
Tony Sayer

Sigh
As I said earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin...essing)#Causes

I further note from the above that it can result from defective/useless
digitalised equipment and so be entirely spurious.
Ie not exist at all.
A lot of digitalised instrumentation is useless. It only approximates.
So the pix someone posted may well be spurious too.
Unless he has a "proper" analogue oscilloscope, not driven outside it's
limit.
The most likely explanation come to think.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 08:20:40 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013 08:26:14 +0100, "harryagain"

wrote:

Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the
massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

So all that money, in excess of a billion quid in England and Wales, spent
on
static VAR compensators, shunt reactors, capacitor banks, etc is simply a
waste
of money then?

You better get onto OFGEM straight away and get them to investigate this
massive
waste of money.

Just so you know where they are when you have a word with OFGEM, have a
look at
page 17 of this document. Look for the things in magenta and green.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/B9B5D93B-9BDE-4C8D-B5A5-0F34FCED0E99/47005/NETSSYS2011AppendixA.pdf

Please let us know how you get on with OFGEM. You may want to let the
Daily
Mail know while you are at it. They are well known and have an
international
reputation for accurate, non biased reporting of 'facts' They will love
your
story.

I see you are full of **** too

Power factor correction consists of banks of capacitors (mostly),
to correct the lagging power factor caused by inductive loads. (eg Motors)
It can be done coincidently bu other means, not usually viable.

Severely lagging power factor cause excessive current (and losses) in the
distribution system.
So there is a financial penalty imposed. Usually by a peak load charge
which is measured in Kva not Kw.
So it becomes fanancially worthwhile to correct the powerfactor.

Harry, the diagram illustrated all the reactive correction capability on the
transmission network, not the distribution network or on a customers premises.
For reference the blue lines are 400kV, the black ones 275kV. While there can
be financial penalties for individual industrial and commercial consumers the
choice as to make corrections to their power factor is theirs alone.

Your statement that

"Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance."

Is incorrect.


--

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 08:20:40 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013 08:26:14 +0100, "harryagain"

wrote:

Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the
massively
greater inductive reactance.
(Due to motors etc)

So all that money, in excess of a billion quid in England and Wales, spent
on
static VAR compensators, shunt reactors, capacitor banks, etc is simply a
waste
of money then?

You better get onto OFGEM straight away and get them to investigate this
massive
waste of money.

Just so you know where they are when you have a word with OFGEM, have a
look at
page 17 of this document. Look for the things in magenta and green.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonl...A5-0F34FCED0E9
9/47005/NETSSYS2011AppendixA.pdf

Please let us know how you get on with OFGEM. You may want to let the
Daily
Mail know while you are at it. They are well known and have an
international
reputation for accurate, non biased reporting of 'facts' They will love
your
story.

I see you are full of **** too

Power factor correction consists of banks of capacitors (mostly),
to correct the lagging power factor caused by inductive loads. (eg Motors)
It can be done coincidently bu other means, not usually viable.

Severely lagging power factor cause excessive current (and losses) in the
distribution system.
So there is a financial penalty imposed. Usually by a peak load charge
which is measured in Kva not Kw.
So it becomes fanancially worthwhile to correct the powerfactor.

Harry, the diagram illustrated all the reactive correction capability on the
transmission network, not the distribution network or on a customers premises.
For reference the blue lines are 400kV, the black ones 275kV. While there can
be financial penalties for individual industrial and commercial consumers the
choice as to make corrections to their power factor is theirs alone.

Your statement that

"Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance."

Is incorrect.



Mike don't bother, its waay over his head he wouldn't understand One
percent of what you know re power distribution..
--
Tony Sayer

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 02/10/2013 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the roof
for example.



Don't be silly the PV panels stop most of the heat reaching the roof and
the insulation stops most of what does getting into the building.

The air layer between the roof and solar panels does that.
Like those things they used to sell to "tropicalise" Landrovers.
Dozy ****s used to fit them and pretended they took their Landrovers to
Africa &c



Despite the ones across the way in the shade of the trees, are bolted
right down to the roof ..
--
Tony Sayer

The Other Mike wrote:

Harry, the diagram illustrated all the reactive correction capability on the
transmission network, not the distribution network or on a customers premises.
For reference the blue lines are 400kV, the black ones 275kV. While there can
be financial penalties for individual industrial and commercial consumers the
choice as to make corrections to their power factor is theirs alone.

Your statement that

"Capcitive reactance in the mains is extirely cancellled out by the massively
greater inductive reactance."

Is incorrect.

I think you are fighting an uphill battle there Mike. In Donald
Rumsfeld parlance, there seems to be an awful lot that Harry
doesn't know he doesn't know.

Without blowing your cover, I'm wondering if your ability to find
National Grid data sheets indicates you have a professional
interest in the subject.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it
usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial compared
with total load.



Then why do they cause waveform distortion and why does the mains get
distorted?..

Even with very light transformer loading's?..
--
Tony Sayer

it's not them that does it.



So -what- does it then ?..

Be a bit more specific please...
--
Tony Sayer

Sigh
As I said earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin...essing)#Causes

I further note from the above that it can result from defective/useless
digitalised equipment and so be entirely spurious.
Ie not exist at all.
A lot of digitalised instrumentation is useless. It only approximates.
So the pix someone posted may well be spurious too.
Unless he has a "proper" analogue oscilloscope, not driven outside it's
limit.
The most likely explanation come to think.




Harry like most everything else you think you understand you have this
wrong .. totally wrong ..

A few words .. please rearrange...


digging hole stop a in when
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"dennis@home" wrote in message
aweb.com...
On 02/10/2013 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 01/10/13 19:14, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 01/10/2013 09:36, harryagain wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
harryagain wrote:

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.

How much power do you think datacentres gobble up? Vast
warehouses
full
of rack upon rack of servers with SMPSUs ...

Trivial.
And most of it is in ventiilation anyway, nothing to do with
electronics.

Where is the heat that needs ventilating coming from harry?


It comes from the heatsinks on electronic components and from people
in
these data centres.
Also from the lighting, the screens (CRT or flat).
From cooking and coffee making.

But mostly from solar gain.

you havent been in a dark office ever, have you harry?

You dozy bugger. Solar gain occurs even without windows. Through the
roof
for example.



Don't be silly the PV panels stop most of the heat reaching the roof and
the insulation stops most of what does getting into the building.

The air layer between the roof and solar panels does that.
Like those things they used to sell to "tropicalise" Landrovers.
Dozy ****s used to fit them and pretended they took their Landrovers to
Africa &c



Despite the ones across the way in the shade of the trees, are bolted
right down to the roof ..


The thing I was talking about was an extra "roof" mounted a couple of inches
about the original with spacers.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Harry .. things have moved in since you looked after your boilers.

The mains these days has some rather "unpleasant" loading on it
usually
by semiconductor devices not transformers near saturation. Why is it
that I can clearly see these even late at night when the loading on
substation transformers goes right down?.

Answer me that one if you will..

The electrical load controlled by electronic devices is trivial
compared
with total load.



Then why do they cause waveform distortion and why does the mains get
distorted?..

Even with very light transformer loading's?..
--
Tony Sayer

it's not them that does it.



So -what- does it then ?..

Be a bit more specific please...
--
Tony Sayer

Sigh
As I said earlier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin...essing)#Causes

I further note from the above that it can result from defective/useless
digitalised equipment and so be entirely spurious.
Ie not exist at all.
A lot of digitalised instrumentation is useless. It only approximates.
So the pix someone posted may well be spurious too.
Unless he has a "proper" analogue oscilloscope, not driven outside it's
limit.
The most likely explanation come to think.




Harry like most everything else you think you understand you have this
wrong .. totally wrong ..

A few words .. please rearrange...


digging hole stop a in when


You can't evengrasp simple things whenpresented to you in black andwhite?

On 03/10/2013 10:22, tony sayer wrote:

Despite the ones across the way in the shade of the trees, are bolted
right down to the roof ..


That's probably a bad move unless they are the rarer tile type PV panels
that actually are the roof.

You want the air at the rear to help cool the panel as they work better
when cool.

There are a lot of cowboys out there installing PV in unsuitable places.

Harry like most everything else you think you understand you have this
wrong .. totally wrong ..

A few words .. please rearrange...


digging hole stop a in when


You can't evengrasp simple things whenpresented to you in black andwhite?



Its very simple harry, now try them again...


digging hole when stop in a
--
Tony Sayer