It's BT engineers.

******s.

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

It's BT engineers.
******s.

Yes, but trumped by their salesmen and pre-sales consultants.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:02:54 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

It's BT engineers.

******s.

If it doesn't move clip a cable to it?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 12/08/2013 19:02, ARW wrote:
It's BT engineers.

You've actually seen one? I thought they were mythical beasts.

Colin Bignell

On Monday, August 12, 2013 7:02:54 PM UTC+1, wrote:
It's BT engineers.



******s.

Engineers? Or cable fitters?

A long time ago, I went out of my front door to find one of them had erected a ladder in my front garden and was installing a cable for the neighbour's house behind the plastic RW drain pipe I'd recently put up. He hadn't asked, but I couldn't be bothered to start an argument.

Months later, I discovered he'd snapped one side of every plastic bracket to shove his cable behind the pipe, the smirking arsehole. It was a 3-storey house, so getting a ladder up to replace them was no quick job.

With hindsight, I should have told him to clear out straight away. BT, British Gas and Thames Water are on my **** list for all eternity. All ******s, as you've noticed.

Onetap wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2013 7:02:54 PM UTC+1,
wrote:
It's BT engineers.



******s.

Engineers? Or cable fitters?

OK. He was "supposed" to fit 9 master sockets in 9 apartments.

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable enters the
building. All the cables were in place.

So what does that make him? Engineer or cable fitter?


--
Adam

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:42:10 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

Onetap wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2013 7:02:54 PM UTC+1,
wrote:
It's BT engineers.



******s.

Engineers? Or cable fitters?

OK. He was "supposed" to fit 9 master sockets in 9 apartments.

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable enters the
building. All the cables were in place.

So what does that make him? Engineer or cable fitter?

Dont know. Has he ever driven a steam loco?

So what did/didn't he do?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Monday, August 12, 2013 7:42:10 PM UTC+1, wrote:

So what does that make him? Engineer or cable fitter?

Adam
A cable fitter, telecoms technician or whatever, IMHO.

An 'Engineer' suggests to me that he'd have some technical education, but I'm a dinosaur from when the UK had a serious engineering industry.

How did he cock that up?

ARW wrote:

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable enters the
building. All the cables were in place.

So what does that make him? Engineer or cable fitter?

To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer, internally
he'd probably be a technician, or a jointer.

Graham. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:42:10 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

Onetap wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2013 7:02:54 PM UTC+1,
wrote:
It's BT engineers.



******s.

Engineers? Or cable fitters?

OK. He was "supposed" to fit 9 master sockets in 9 apartments.

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable
enters the building. All the cables were in place.

So what does that make him? Engineer or cable fitter?

Dont know. Has he ever driven a steam loco?

So what did/didn't he do?

He didn't drive a steam loco (to the best of my knowledge, but I was not
there) but he definitely did not manage to correctly fit any of the nine
master sockets into any of the nine apartments where the cable was already
in place:-)

--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message ...

It's BT engineers.




If you can't fix it with a hammer it's an electrical problem

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:42:10 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

OK. He was "supposed" to fit 9 master sockets in 9 apartments.

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable enters the
building. All the cables were in place.

So all nine master sockets lined up side by side in the communal cupboard then?

--

On 12/08/2013 21:32, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:42:10 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

OK. He was "supposed" to fit 9 master sockets in 9 apartments.

All the cables were in place. He needed 9 master sockets and whatever
junction box they use in the communal cupboard where the BT cable enters the
building. All the cables were in place.

So all nine master sockets lined up side by side in the communal cupboard then?


Well that would absolve BT of the responsibility for the internal wiring.

ARW wrote:

he definitely did not manage to correctly fit any of the nine
master sockets into any of the nine apartments where the cable was already
in place

Sure it wasn't alarm wire instead of proper CW1308, that's apparently
the usual builder's mistake.

"ARW" wrote:
It's BT engineers.

******s.

It's the whole of BT. They take useless to new levels. It's why in my
business they are known as OpenRetch.


--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET. On a good
day I'll only be quietly cross.

internally he'd probably be a technician, or a jointer.

That works for me.

Andy

On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

On a good day I'll only be quietly cross.

internally he'd probably be a technician, or a jointer.

That works for me.

Andy

We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone to
use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

SteveW

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 12:07:24 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

A cable fitter, telecoms technician or whatever, IMHO.

An 'Engineer' suggests to me that he'd have some technical education,

Some of the Openreach "engineers" do have a technical education, the
ones that won't let a fault defeat them. The engineers we get around
here are generally very good, friendly and once started on a fault
will work on it until they fix it. No going home at 1700...

Any other contact I have with BT is appaulling. I've been trying to
move a number from a Business ISDN line to a Residential line since
the end of May. I've been told many times, "yes we'll sort that out"
or "I'll pass it to the right department" and that is the last I hear
of any (in)action. I've given up talking to them, I wrote with all
the details they could possibly need in the midle of July, got a
phone call "I've passed your instructions on, they will contact you
later". Have I been contacted, has the number moved. Nope. About to
complain to Ofcom with copies to CEO's of BT Business and BT
Retail...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:29:50 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET. On a good
day I'll only be quietly cross.

I had a long moan when I called out a Hotpoint repair person. The people
on the phone called him an 'engineer', so as I had nothing better to do,
I started an argument.

--
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My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
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*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
ARW wrote:
It's BT engineers.

******s.

Builder mate of mine who did mainly 'posh' work used to call them the
skirting board and architrave brigade. He'd finish 'doing up' a room -
usually with all new woodwork etc and very careful decoration - and they
come in and clip their cables all over it.

--
*No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 12/08/2013 19:02, ARW wrote:
It's BT engineers.

You've actually seen one? I thought they were mythical beasts.

Colin Bignell



Two of 'em, both retired now, are neighbours of mine ... :-)

Arfa

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 12:07:24 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

An 'Engineer' suggests to me that he'd have some technical education,

Some of the Openreach "engineers" do have a technical education, the
ones that won't let a fault defeat them.

Indeed, a friend of mine left school to join BT at the age of 16 while
the rest of us stayed on for A levels, he got several year's worth of
telecoms specific courses (probably HND or equiv), and had his turn in
exchanges, up poles, down manholes. He now specialises in the 'tricky'
broadband fixes, but can cope with various jobs they throw at him
whenever he's on call.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 12:07:24 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

A cable fitter, telecoms technician or whatever, IMHO.

An 'Engineer' suggests to me that he'd have some technical education,

Some of the Openreach "engineers" do have a technical education, the
ones that won't let a fault defeat them. The engineers we get around
here are generally very good, friendly and once started on a fault
will work on it until they fix it. No going home at 1700...

Any other contact I have with BT is appaulling. I've been trying to
move a number from a Business ISDN line to a Residential line since
the end of May. I've been told many times, "yes we'll sort that out"
or "I'll pass it to the right department" and that is the last I hear
of any (in)action. I've given up talking to them, I wrote with all
the details they could possibly need in the midle of July, got a
phone call "I've passed your instructions on, they will contact you
later". Have I been contacted, has the number moved. Nope. About to
complain to Ofcom with copies to CEO's of BT Business and BT
Retail...


Why don't you just port to someone like Zen Internet like we have done
with our remote lines and BB feeds . Much Much less bother and yes
whilst Openreach are involved there're like a different outfit freed of
the BT "customer services" yoke;!... or should that be Joke?...
--
Tony Sayer

On 12/08/2013 23:59, SteveW wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

On a good day I'll only be quietly cross.

internally he'd probably be a technician, or a jointer.

That works for me.

Andy

We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone to
use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

SteveW


The last 20 years suggest that the Germans have got most things right.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 09:42:50 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Any other contact I have with BT is appaulling. I've been trying
to
move a number from a Business ISDN line to a Residential line
since
the end of May.

Why don't you just port to someone like Zen Internet like we have done
with our remote lines and BB feeds.

The only provider of POTS lines here is BT, no LLU. This number move
is onto the Residential POTS line that brings in maintained voice
services and ADSL. As this is a "single point of failure" and I get
serious grief if the internet is down for more than 5 mins I've got
Totalcare on that line:

"Totalcare - operates between 7am and 9pm on weekdays and between 8am
and 6pm at all other times. We aim to repair a fault within 24 hours
of you reporting it to us."

They do as well, within a week or two of getting Totalcare we had a
fault. Reported it just before 1700 on a Friday, BT Openreach chap at
the door 0900 Saturday fixed before lunchtime. Without Totalcare it
would probably have been Wednesday/Thursday before they even looked
at it. The downside is that you don't appear able to report faults on
a lilne with Totalcare via the website you have to speak to the nice
people in "Bangalore".

The really daft thing is I have ported two numbers from the ISDN to a
non-BT VOIP provider and that just happened with no fuss or problem.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 09:42:50 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Any other contact I have with BT is appaulling. I've been trying
to
move a number from a Business ISDN line to a Residential line
since
the end of May.

Why don't you just port to someone like Zen Internet like we have done
with our remote lines and BB feeds.

The only provider of POTS lines here is BT, no LLU.

No, they do provide business and residential lines, they just like
others use BT 's cables and use Openreach to maintain them like BT do.

The good thing is they are in Lancashire not in a distant land. Its not
LLU as such...

http://www.zen.co.uk/business/voice/phone-services.aspx


and


http://www.zen.co.uk/home-office/voi...-services.aspx


This number move
is onto the Residential POTS line that brings in maintained voice
services and ADSL. As this is a "single point of failure" and I get
serious grief if the internet is down for more than 5 mins I've got
Totalcare on that line:

"Totalcare - operates between 7am and 9pm on weekdays and between 8am
and 6pm at all other times. We aim to repair a fault within 24 hours
of you reporting it to us."

They do as well, within a week or two of getting Totalcare we had a
fault. Reported it just before 1700 on a Friday, BT Openreach chap at
the door 0900 Saturday fixed before lunchtime. Without Totalcare it
would probably have been Wednesday/Thursday before they even looked
at it. The downside is that you don't appear able to report faults on
a lilne with Totalcare via the website you have to speak to the nice
people in "Bangalore".

The really daft thing is I have ported two numbers from the ISDN to a
non-BT VOIP provider and that just happened with no fuss or problem.


--
Tony Sayer

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 23:59:06 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

On a good day I'll only be quietly cross.

internally he'd probably be a technician, or a jointer.

That works for me.

Andy

We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone to
use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

There will need to be an Engineer in number 10 before that happens.


--

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:12:01 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 09:42:50 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Any other contact I have with BT is appaulling. I've been trying
to
move a number from a Business ISDN line to a Residential line
since
the end of May.

Why don't you just port to someone like Zen Internet like we have done
with our remote lines and BB feeds.

The only provider of POTS lines here is BT, no LLU. This number move is
onto the Residential POTS line that brings in maintained voice services
and ADSL. As this is a "single point of failure" and I get serious grief
if the internet is down for more than 5 mins I've got Totalcare on that
line:

"Totalcare - operates between 7am and 9pm on weekdays and between 8am
and 6pm at all other times. We aim to repair a fault within 24 hours of
you reporting it to us."

They do as well, within a week or two of getting Totalcare we had a
fault. Reported it just before 1700 on a Friday, BT Openreach chap at
the door 0900 Saturday fixed before lunchtime. Without Totalcare it
would probably have been Wednesday/Thursday before they even looked at
it. The downside is that you don't appear able to report faults on a
lilne with Totalcare via the website you have to speak to the nice
people in "Bangalore".

Last time, it took a lot of explanation to convince them of teh nature of
Totalcare...I had to ask the woman to talk to her supervisor as she was
still quoting several days.



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*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 12/08/2013 23:00, Steve Firth wrote:
"ARW" wrote:
It's BT engineers.

******s.

It's the whole of BT. They take useless to new levels. It's why in my
business they are known as OpenRetch.


*marks for future use*

On 13/08/2013 01:44, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 12/08/2013 19:02, ARW wrote:
It's BT engineers.

You've actually seen one? I thought they were mythical beasts.

Colin Bignell



Two of 'em, both retired now, are neighbours of mine ... :-)

Arfa

I can believe they might reach retirement age before turning up.

Colin Bignell

Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

he definitely did not manage to correctly fit any of the nine
master sockets into any of the nine apartments where the cable was
already in place

Sure it wasn't alarm wire instead of proper CW1308, that's apparently
the usual builder's mistake.

For the visible bits of cable I used the proper stuff. The BT guy could not
see the strip connector that I had used behind the ceiling where I changed
to alarm cable. Well, when I say I used strip connector what I meant to say
was that I just twisted the wires together and then wrapped some insulation
tape around he joints.

Only joking. TBH I could not find any insulation tape so I just used some
masking tape.

--
Adam

On 13/08/2013 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:

They do as well, within a week or two of getting Totalcare we had a
fault. Reported it just before 1700 on a Friday, BT Openreach chap at
the door 0900 Saturday fixed before lunchtime. Without Totalcare it
would probably have been Wednesday/Thursday before they even looked
at it. The downside is that you don't appear able to report faults on
a lilne with Totalcare via the website you have to speak to the nice
people in "Bangalore".


I remember when BlueYonder existed,
phoned them up with a fault at 13:00 on xmas eve and had an engineer
fixing it an hour later.

I bet they wouldn't do that now Virgin run it.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 19:02:54 +0100, ARW wrote:

It's BT engineers.

******s.

Anything with the title of engineer and no formal qualification.

The term has been devalued.

At one time you had programmers, and higher qualifications such as system
engineers and integrators.

So the programmers looked at the better jobs and pay and started calling
themselves system engineers and integrators.

A bit like New Labour and sending everyone to university so a degree
became essentially valueless.

Don't think the BT fault fixers these days are even employed by BT - all
been hived off to cut costs.

So they don't have the time, the financial incentive, or the pride in the
job to go that extra mile.

Some do, some don't - luck of the draw.

Cheers

Dave R

On 12/08/2013 23:59, SteveW wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

Sorry. The IET and I cross paths - I'm BCS.

snip
We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone to
use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

There's a lot to be said for that. Trouble is in computers there are an
awful lot of people who are self educated, sometimes because they
invented the technologies.

Andy

On 13 Aug 2013 13:17:42 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Last time,

How long ago?

it took a lot of explanation to convince them of teh nature of
Totalcare...I had to ask the woman to talk to her supervisor as she was
still quoting several days.

The other month it slowed the process down as it appeared they had to
check with Openreach to make the "appointment" for the next day.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 20:24:22 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 12/08/2013 23:59, SteveW wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

Sorry. The IET and I cross paths - I'm BCS.

I'm both!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
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*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 13/08/2013 20:24, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:59, SteveW wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

Sorry. The IET and I cross paths - I'm BCS.

snip
We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone to
use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

There's a lot to be said for that. Trouble is in computers there are an
awful lot of people who are self educated, sometimes because they
invented the technologies.

Andy

There are ways round that. The institutes were looking (don't know if
they ever got there) at admitting people with sufficient proof of
experience in lieu of qualifications. That was going on for a long time
though - my dad was looking into it about 10 years before he retired,
but there was no route in place then (and he's been retired for 10
years). It was rather silly, he couldn't join the institutes, but he
chaired BSI committees writing the standards!

SteveW

On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:58:41 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 13/08/2013 20:24, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:59, SteveW wrote:
On 12/08/2013 23:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 20:08, Andy Burns wrote:
To the customer they'd probably refer to him as an engineer,

Catch me on a bad day, and I'll ask him if he's really MIET.

Oi, don't forget us MInstMC!

Sorry. The IET and I cross paths - I'm BCS.

snip
We should be like the Germans on this and make it illegal for anyone
to use the title Engineer unless they are qualified, experienced and
registered.

There's a lot to be said for that. Trouble is in computers there are an
awful lot of people who are self educated, sometimes because they
invented the technologies.

Andy

There are ways round that. The institutes were looking (don't know if
they ever got there) at admitting people with sufficient proof of
experience in lieu of qualifications. That was going on for a long time
though - my dad was looking into it about 10 years before he retired,
but there was no route in place then (and he's been retired for 10
years). It was rather silly, he couldn't join the institutes, but he
chaired BSI committees writing the standards!

The IET are a bit tough on that (they're a bit hung up on 'job status'
and how many people you manage). But it *is* apparently possible.

The BCS have had that in place for many years. SWMBO applied and was
interviewed by a panel. Being the BCS at the time, it was all
industrialists (she's in education) and they rejected her! She
complained, they apologised for the error, set up a new panel and got
MBCS with no trouble at the next monthly membership committee meeting.
Strangely, I got my FBCS at the same meeting!


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On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:08:51 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On 13 Aug 2013 13:17:42 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Last time,

How long ago?

About a year or so.

it took a lot of explanation to convince them of teh nature of
Totalcare...I had to ask the woman to talk to her supervisor as she was
still quoting several days.

The other month it slowed the process down as it appeared they had to
check with Openreach to make the "appointment" for the next day.

They got the 'engineer' to phone me and we fixed a mutually convenient
time. He was very good, arrived early at 0815 and had it all fixed by
0900.



--
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*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:58:41 +0100, SteveW wrote:
snip


There are ways round that. The institutes were looking (don't know if
they ever got there) at admitting people with sufficient proof of
experience in lieu of qualifications. That was going on for a long time
though - my dad was looking into it about 10 years before he retired,
but there was no route in place then (and he's been retired for 10
years). It was rather silly, he couldn't join the institutes, but he
chaired BSI committees writing the standards!


The IET are a bit tough on that (they're a bit hung up on 'job status'
and how many people you manage). But it *is* apparently possible.

I thought that when I was looking at moving up a grade in membership - as I've spent almost all my time in research I've never had loads of people to manage. In the end I decided that since I wasn't looking to move out of research it was relatively unimportant to me.