A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

On 26/07/2013 14:20, Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

In the first, the diagonal is in compression. In the second, it is in
tension. Both can be made to work, but compression makes for simpler
construction: It will work even if the brace is not jointed into the
outer frame.

Colin Bignell

On Friday, July 26, 2013 2:20:48 PM UTC+1, Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Depends whether the diagonal strut and its fixing are designed to work in tension or compression. The top option works with a piece of wood, which is reasonable in compression and easier to fix that way. If you were using a steel rod which would work better in tension then the lower option would be the way to go.

On 26/07/2013 14:20, Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)


The first one (assuming traditional ledge frame and braced construction,
where the brace works best in compression. On a welded steel frame for
example it would not make much difference).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Peter Percival" wrote in message
...
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)



The above answers are correct.
Unless you want to use a bit of steel wire for the diagonal, in which case,
the second one would be correct (tension).

On 26/07/2013 16:21, harryagain wrote:
The above answers are correct.
Unless you want to use a bit of steel wire for the diagonal, in which case,
the second one would be correct (tension).

Our garden gate was fitted with the strut in tension. I've had to add a
wire to stop it sagging. (wasn't convenient to rehang)

Andy

Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Also, where should the hinges be? I mean should the top one be (say)
1/4 of the way down from the top of the door and the bottom one 1/4 of
the way up from the bottom, or some other fraction? The door is for a
shed and will be constructed from shiplap on (the metric equivalent of)
a 2" x 2" timber frame.


--
Sorrow in all lands, and grievous omens.
Great anger in the dragon of the hills,
And silent now the earth's green oracles
That will not speak again of innocence.
David Sutton -- Geomancies

On 15/08/2013 16:21, Peter Percival wrote:
Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Also, where should the hinges be? I mean should the top one be (say)
1/4 of the way down from the top of the door and the bottom one 1/4 of
the way up from the bottom, or some other fraction? The door is for a
shed and will be constructed from shiplap on (the metric equivalent of)
a 2" x 2" timber frame.

If its a ledged and braced door, then usually the Tee hinges are placed
on the horizontal ledges top and bottom.

If using normal hinges on a door, the traditional spacings are 6" down
from the top, 8" up from the bottom, and another midway between them. A
modern version is sometimes 6" up rather than 8", and on light weight
doors the middle one left off.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15/08/2013 20:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/08/2013 16:21, Peter Percival wrote:
Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Also, where should the hinges be? I mean should the top one be (say)
1/4 of the way down from the top of the door and the bottom one 1/4 of
the way up from the bottom, or some other fraction? The door is for a
shed and will be constructed from shiplap on (the metric equivalent of)
a 2" x 2" timber frame.

If its a ledged and braced door, then usually the Tee hinges are placed
on the horizontal ledges top and bottom.

If using normal hinges on a door, the traditional spacings are 6" down
from the top, 8" up from the bottom, and another midway between them. A
modern version is sometimes 6" up rather than 8", and on light weight
doors the middle one left off.

And sometimes the third hinge is noticeably higher than the middle.

--
Rod

On 15/08/2013 20:12, polygonum wrote:
On 15/08/2013 20:02, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/08/2013 16:21, Peter Percival wrote:
Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Also, where should the hinges be? I mean should the top one be (say)
1/4 of the way down from the top of the door and the bottom one 1/4 of
the way up from the bottom, or some other fraction? The door is for a
shed and will be constructed from shiplap on (the metric equivalent of)
a 2" x 2" timber frame.

If its a ledged and braced door, then usually the Tee hinges are placed
on the horizontal ledges top and bottom.

If using normal hinges on a door, the traditional spacings are 6" down
from the top, 8" up from the bottom, and another midway between them. A
modern version is sometimes 6" up rather than 8", and on light weight
doors the middle one left off.

And sometimes the third hinge is noticeably higher than the middle.

Common in hospitals for some reason...




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 00:24:40 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


And sometimes the third hinge is noticeably higher than the middle.

Common in hospitals for some reason...

Probably because hospital doors are fire retardant, hence much heavier
than "normal" ones.

--
Frank Erskine

On 16/08/2013 01:17, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 00:24:40 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


And sometimes the third hinge is noticeably higher than the middle.

Common in hospitals for some reason...

Probably because hospital doors are fire retardant, hence much heavier
than "normal" ones.

I would have expected the optimum position to very, very close to the
same on all doors. Is it that on heavier doors it is worth going out of
your way to identify that optimum point and fix accordingly? Whereas on
lighter doors simply measure the middle?

And agreed about hospital doors. That was precisely where I have most
often noticed them.

--
Rod

On 16/08/2013 00:24, John Rumm wrote:

And sometimes the third hinge is noticeably higher than the middle.

Common in hospitals for some reason...


There can be a lot of outward force at the top of a heavy door, hence
two hinges to hold it better.

On 26/07/2013 14:20, Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Mentally remove the door & just look at the brace. In the top example
it's a gallows bracket.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 07:30:06 +0100 Polygonum wrote :
I would have expected the optimum position to very, very close to the
same on all doors. Is it that on heavier doors it is worth going out of
your way to identify that optimum point and fix accordingly? Whereas on
lighter doors simply measure the middle?

And agreed about hospital doors. That was precisely where I have most
often noticed them.

Centre hinge in the middle is the norm on external doors but it's mainly
there to stop the door warping.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 15/08/2013 16:21, Peter Percival wrote:
Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

If it is *really* like this it doesn't matter.

Forget the outer "upright" and think of the triange formed by the hinge,
brace, and third horizontal. In the first case, the brace is in
compression, in the second it is in tension. For lifting equipment, say
if you wanted to suspend a pulley away from a wall, you generally find
the second case because the "brace" is in tension so it can't buckle,
and less material is required.

For proper ledge and brace, with the brace fitted into a small cutaway
in the ledge, the top one is better. This is because in that case the
brace is in compression, and any movement in the structure tends to lock
the brace and the ledge together.

Buckling isn't an issue for realistic geometries of door brace, and in
any case it is stabilised by being screwed or nailed to the main woodwork.

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:02:44 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 15/08/2013 16:21, Peter Percival wrote:
Peter Percival wrote:
A door is to be constructed thus (fixed width font needed):

+-----+
|\ | h
| \ | i
| \ | n
| \ | g
| \| e
+-----+ s

or thus:

+-----+
h |\ |
i | \ |
n | \ |
g | \ |
e | \|
s +-----+

Which is right? (And why does it matter?)

Also, where should the hinges be? I mean should the top one be (say)
1/4 of the way down from the top of the door and the bottom one 1/4 of
the way up from the bottom, or some other fraction? The door is for a
shed and will be constructed from shiplap on (the metric equivalent of)
a 2" x 2" timber frame.

If its a ledged and braced door, then usually the Tee hinges are placed
on the horizontal ledges top and bottom.

If using normal hinges on a door, the traditional spacings are 6" down
from the top, 8" up from the bottom, and another midway between them. A
modern version is sometimes 6" up rather than 8", and on light weight
doors the middle one left off.

When I wanted 3 hinges for my new shed I decided on stainless steel normal
hinges. SF and TS did them in pairs but Wickes had packs of 3. I don't know
if that's still the case, but was cheaper than buying 2 packs - and 1 hinge
is a bit like 1 sock or glove.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 16/08/2013 08:33, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 07:30:06 +0100 Polygonum wrote :
I would have expected the optimum position to very, very close to the
same on all doors. Is it that on heavier doors it is worth going out of
your way to identify that optimum point and fix accordingly? Whereas on
lighter doors simply measure the middle?

And agreed about hospital doors. That was precisely where I have most
often noticed them.

Centre hinge in the middle is the norm on external doors but it's mainly
there to stop the door warping.

Indeed.

On the hospital ones, it may be a reflection of the fact they are
expected to be repeatedly "hit" below centre with the end of a bed -
perhaps putting more torsion on the top hinges?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/