Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA

On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA


I bought a "loop" from the Ideal home exhibition last week (£20)
https://www.your-loop.com/

You get two devices, one that you clamp around your meter tail (this has
an integral long life battery), the other you connect to your broadband
router (this one needs a power supply, which can be taken from the
router if it has a USB port, or via the included mains adaptor)

This then shows you (via a web page) your real-time usage, and all
historic usage - once they have 30 days of usage, they will then be able
to recommend different suppliers based on your actual usage.

they claim to have a gas transmitter that will be available later this
year, someone reading the dial on the meter, apparently the receiver
unit has 16 channels, so hopefully it will be able to read other things
like water meters and exported power if you have solar etc..

The parent company is http://www.navetas.com/ which appears to be a well
established company.

--
Toby...
Remove pants to reply

Toby wrote:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA


I bought a "loop" from the Ideal home exhibition last week (£20)
https://www.your-loop.com/

You get two devices, one that you clamp around your meter tail (this has
an integral long life battery), the other you connect to your broadband
router (this one needs a power supply, which can be taken from the
router if it has a USB port, or via the included mains adaptor)

This then shows you (via a web page) your real-time usage, and all
historic usage - once they have 30 days of usage, they will then be able
to recommend different suppliers based on your actual usage.

they claim to have a gas transmitter that will be available later this
year, someone reading the dial on the meter, apparently the receiver
unit has 16 channels, so hopefully it will be able to read other things
like water meters and exported power if you have solar etc..

The parent company is http://www.navetas.com/ which appears to be a well
established company.

There is also a subscription to pay and unlike other monitors, it does
not help you identify things that are take more power than you think.
Once you stop paying the subscription, the thing is a bit of a chocolate
teapot.

On Thursday 28 March 2013 14:08 Toby wrote in uk.d-i-y:



I bought a "loop" from the Ideal home exhibition last week (£20)
https://www.your-loop.com/

You get two devices, one that you clamp around your meter tail (this has
an integral long life battery), the other you connect to your broadband
router (this one needs a power supply, which can be taken from the
router if it has a USB port, or via the included mains adaptor)

This then shows you (via a web page) your real-time usage, and all
historic usage - once they have 30 days of usage, they will then be able
to recommend different suppliers based on your actual usage.

Sounds rather intersting. Can you pull data direct from the device (without
relying on their online service)?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

I suppose it depends how determined you are to log it manually. My
electricity meter requires considerable effort, a torch and a step
ladder to read. The Owl by comparison sits on a windowsill and gives
(nearly) immediate feedback. Expect to shave about 10% off your bill by
having one even if you are relatively good about switching lights off.

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind
furniture when I got mine. Getting your overnight base load down is the
first easy thing to do - many modern TVs default to running the digital
decoder in case your DVD recorder might want to use it.

10W continuous load is 80kWh or approx £10 off the annual bill.

It is also worth having a more sensitive plug/socket based device that
can measure standby power down to fractions of a watt. That way you can
decide if any of the kit you have needs isolating from mains when not in
use. Various smart extension sockets and adaptors exist for this.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

That is a very big change - what new toys have you bought?
Plasma TV is the most obvious suspect.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA

Unless you really want to play at logging then the Owl is good enough -
you might even persuade your electricity supplier to give you one...

The saving for our village hall is massive because it stops people
leaving the electric heating, ovens or hot water immersion on overnight.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Mar 28, 1:55*pm, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA

Go to your local library. Many lend them out like a book.

Fred wrote:

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage,

If you are in any doubt, look at your previous bills, either on
paper or on line (some suppliers will even show you comparative
graphs. If you are not already doing it, I would strongly
recommend that you maintain your own spreadsheet with meter
readings, at least fortnightly.

however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

I have an Eco-Eye Smart PV, which (provided your mains cables
have been separated to permit this) can show both usage,
generation and net import/export. The display includes a special
SD card, from which data can be downloaded when convenient, and
there is an included analysis program.

If you have no PV, they have a slightly cheaper option.

You can also connect via a USB lead to graph the data in
real-time, if you wish, but it is not essential to do this.

Basically it does what is claimed. Like all such devices there is
a degree of error in the readings, but it seems sensitive enough
to changes. There doesn't seem to be a wired option, so you need
the display to be able to receive a reasonable signal from the
transmitter.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

I suppose it depends how determined you are to log it manually. My
electricity meter requires considerable effort, a torch and a step
ladder to read. The Owl by comparison sits on a windowsill and gives
(nearly) immediate feedback. Expect to shave about 10% off your bill by
having one even if you are relatively good about switching lights off.

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

I suppose it depends how determined you are to log it manually. My
electricity meter requires considerable effort, a torch and a step
ladder to read. The Owl by comparison sits on a windowsill and gives
(nearly) immediate feedback. Expect to shave about 10% off your bill by
having one even if you are relatively good about switching lights off.

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

Virtually all these cheap ones suffer from this. They do not have the
capability to use a voltage/phase sample and so assume unity power
factor and additionally if you have solar panels or such like, the
output from these is registered as CONSUMPTION which unless you
understand what is going on, will be very confusing.

Owl told me a year or so ago they were working on something more
sensible but I've yet to see it available.

On 28/03/2013 16:05, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

I suppose it depends how determined you are to log it manually. My
electricity meter requires considerable effort, a torch and a step
ladder to read. The Owl by comparison sits on a windowsill and gives
(nearly) immediate feedback. Expect to shave about 10% off your bill by
having one even if you are relatively good about switching lights off.

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

Granted that the phase angle meant it was probably not dissipating
anything like 10W but it was enough that the transformers were warm to
the touch despite being unloaded. Finding and removing them must save
some power even if it was only half what the Owl thought.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

The devices that plug into a mains socket and accept a 13A plug should
be able to do proper phase correction for consumption - although whether
the one I have does or not I have never bothered to check.

Basically it is worth it to find and eliminate wasteful appliances.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

I just went for the company and said, what is the best tariff and It seems
to be working. I'm fixed till some time next year and do not pay monthly
only after a reading has been made.

ie every quarter. I'm sure we can all guess what uses the most and if we
have off peak meters we can arrange for most of that to take place during
the hours when its cheaper.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Fred" wrote in message
news
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...
Fred wrote:

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage,

If you are in any doubt, look at your previous bills, either on
paper or on line (some suppliers will even show you comparative
graphs. If you are not already doing it, I would strongly
recommend that you maintain your own spreadsheet with meter
readings, at least fortnightly.

My bills went up too, from 62 quid a month to... guess what, 90 quid a
month,
this was just after i recieved a 'refund' of the excess money stored in the
account from last years 62 quid a month payments, and my usage being a
little lower than they thought,

Something about they were forced to do this now, before it was apparently
hard to get any excess money out from the account.... before they would just
adjust the monthly payment down a little to allow the excess to be used up,
now they give you the excess back, and put the monthly payments up.

They also changed the tarrifs, getting rid of the so many units at xx.xx p,
then the rest at xx.xxp, per day/week or what ever they charged them at,
which is good as it was confusing and a pain to work out and program into
the current cost meter,
Now it's back to the old standing charge, then units charged at the old
lower rate, something like 40p a day for gas, and 4 or 5 p a day for lecky
standing charges,

Anyway, i have a current cost meter, also one of the ones my lecky supplier
gave me for free a few years ago,
the free one is ****e with a capital S, most the it's display it taken over
with showing how much of a greenarse you are, ****in carbon your producing
and that ****e, and smiley faces when your carbon count goes down, sad when
it goes up for a day,
i took that one appart to see if there was anything i could hack it into
that would be more usefull.

The current cost meter, i admit i dont bother with it now, the 'cool' factor
wore off ages ago, but it was good, clearly showing you how much you were
using right now, compared to what it was the hour/day/week before etc, how
much it was costing you, along with how much it went up or down by in pence,
simple bar graphs to see at a glance your usage over the last day, week etc,

And it also has a download port, so you can connect it to your computer and
download the data, then show in loads of pretty graphs exactly when the
power usage spikes, how much by, how much it's costing you etc,
and easy to plot daily trends and so on.

On 28/03/2013 14:24, Bob Minchin wrote:
Toby wrote:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

TIA


I bought a "loop" from the Ideal home exhibition last week (£20)
https://www.your-loop.com/

You get two devices, one that you clamp around your meter tail (this has
an integral long life battery), the other you connect to your broadband
router (this one needs a power supply, which can be taken from the
router if it has a USB port, or via the included mains adaptor)

This then shows you (via a web page) your real-time usage, and all
historic usage - once they have 30 days of usage, they will then be able
to recommend different suppliers based on your actual usage.

they claim to have a gas transmitter that will be available later this
year, someone reading the dial on the meter, apparently the receiver
unit has 16 channels, so hopefully it will be able to read other things
like water meters and exported power if you have solar etc..

The parent company is http://www.navetas.com/ which appears to be a well
established company.

There is also a subscription to pay and unlike other monitors, it does
not help you identify things that are take more power than you think.

It has a real-time meter you can access on a computer, or a smart phone
(there also an Android app, and an iPhone one is in progress), so it
shows the same as any other clamp meter based one will.
It reacts in a few seconds to a load change, pretty much like my Owl
meter does, maybe a second longer.

Once you stop paying the subscription, the thing is a bit of a chocolate
teapot.

It comes with 12 months, and then it is £5 for the next year, so 42p a
month for them to provide the data storage, graphs, enabling me to check
I haven't left anything on when I am not at home, and switching
recommendation, I don't think that is a bad deal personally.
--
Toby...
Remove pants to reply

On 28/03/2013 14:05, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Fred wrote:

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

Why don't you just read your own meter on the first of the month each
month and record the readings? Shove the differences into a spreadsheet
and thus record how your usage varies. Not too onerous.


I read my meter every day more or less to keep track of what is being
used by what appliance.

On Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:55:25 PM UTC, Fred wrote:

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see

if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of

Odd that no-one's mentioned the tendency of suppliers to overcharge on dd. It means you're loaning them money for free.


NT

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:47:29 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

Who is your provider? When I did a calculation recently, I discovered
that if you use enough to get you into the "remaining units" zone, then
it made absolutely no difference whether you paid with a standing
charge (and all units cost the same) or No SC and with two rates.

That has *always* been the case.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:55:25 +0000, Fred wrote:

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage.

I have a Current Cost C128. It works and provided that you are careful
getting the clamp nicely around the tail fairly accurate. The average
daily use is within 1/2 a unit of the metered daily use.

It has a TTL level serial data port on the back that squirts current and
historical data in XML format every 6 seconds or so(*). They sell a lead
talks USB and there are various third pary bits of software that will
plot/analyse the data.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices ...

Many companies have a habit of dumping you back onto their standard (aka
expensive) tarrif when a deal of some sort comes to an end. 60 to
90/month is a big jump unless you owe them a fair bit and they are
clawing it back over the next year.

(*) It may only do the full historical data every hour, I have mine
connected to the server which is on 24/7 so log the live data on that.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 28/03/2013 21:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:47:29 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

Who is your provider? When I did a calculation recently, I
discovered that if you use enough to get you into the "remaining
units" zone, then it made absolutely no difference whether you paid
with a standing charge (and all units cost the same) or No SC and
with two rates.

That has *always* been the case.

Really. And for all providers, you mean? Then there is definitely scope
for "simplifying the tariffs", because it's not obvious and the small
print doesn't state it.

Scottish Power isn't too bad, but with old nPower bills it took two PhDs
best part of half a day to decode the layers of obfuscation. They may
have improved now. Every time I look at electricity and gas deals and
the myriad complex tariffs I am struck by how opaque they make it. I
have just done it for my parents and discovered that because they have
been stubbornly loyal to their geographic suppliers they were being
ripped off by about 30% over the prevailing market rates.

Disloyalty pays! And the first switch is the deepest cut!

I also object to the dual fuel tariffs since there is no chance of us
ever having mains gas in the village unless the nearby (danger zone)
high pressure gas pipeline springs a leak. If they cannot be arsed to
supply us with gas they should allow us to have the dual fuel tariff.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 16:05:54 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
On 28/03/2013 13:55, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

I suppose it depends how determined you are to log it manually. My
electricity meter requires considerable effort, a torch and a step
ladder to read. The Owl by comparison sits on a windowsill and gives
(nearly) immediate feedback. Expect to shave about 10% off your bill by
having one even if you are relatively good about switching lights off.

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

I had a free meter with a clamp and WiFi to the monitor - it was so bad that
I gave it away to an electrician!

The plug-in meter from Maplin at least shows, e.g., a 20W CFL as 20W and
about 38VA; it also shows the PF-corrected 30W CFL as 30W and 31VA.
Most of what I want to know runs from 13A plugs and so I can measure it
(even the PC on, of course SMPSU, seems to be quite accurate at 45W as the
330W PSU never gets warm). I haven't bothered to measure the Humax FS PVR as
it has to be on when required anyway - if I get a tuit...

The items that don't plug in are resistive mainly, except for the boiler.

Overall I know pretty well what the power and energy are and an accurate
clamp-on meter would be interesting but academic.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Martin Brown writes:

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.


I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 21:24:45 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

When I did a calculation recently, I discovered that if you use
enough to get you into the "remaining units" zone, then it made
absolutely no difference whether you paid with a standing charge (and
all units cost the same) or No SC and with two rates.

That has *always* been the case.

Really. And for all providers, you mean?

Well I wouldn't like to go that far but I did the maths on several
providers when the "no standing charge" tarrifs came in and and
occasionally since and found that when you had used all the, expensive,
Teir 1 units you had paid the standing charge. The Tier 2 unit price was
the same as the single rate "standing charge" tarrif.

Then there is definitely scope for "simplifying the tariffs", because
it's not obvious and the small print doesn't state it.

Not obvious? You pay more fo X amount of something and have something
else removed and it's not obvious that the overall result is likely to be
the same or very similar?

AFAIK there is only one true "no standing charge" tarrif out there, from
EBICO. If you don't use any power your bill is zero. The unit cost is
higher, 14.08 v 9.04 here, but most most standing charges are well over
10p/day.

But the sheer number of tarrifs out there is stupid, I'm not convinced
that the goverment dabbling with them is good idea though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Martin Brown writes:

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.


I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

I don't know how accurate it is at handling a heavily non-sinusoidal
current waveform - for example, if it derives something other than
the RMS value, then it's not even giving you the VA rating, and you
might be getting something either higher or lower than the real
value.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:07:05 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

AFAIK there is only one true "no standing charge" tarrif out there,
from EBICO. If you don't use any power your bill is zero. The unit
cost is higher, 14.08 v 9.04 here, but most most standing charges are
well over 10p/day.

We're on ScottishPower and if we were to use zero we'd pay zero. It's a
NSC tariff, and there are the expensive units and the slightly less so
ones.

Zero use was a bad example. Say the first 500 units are Tier 1 at 20p,
Tier 2 is 10p. Ebico 15p.

Use 500 units:
"No standing charge" 500 * 0.20 = £100
Ebico 500 * 0.15 = £75

Use 1000 units:
"No standing charge" (500 * 0.20) + (500 * 0.10) = £150
Ebico 1000 * 0.15 = £150

It takes a certain amount of poking about to find these pdf's to
download which have all the details of their deals.

Almost impossible on some suppliers sites and when you do finding the
tarrif for your area and then all the caveats in a 20 page .pdf ain't
easy either. If there is one place that could seriously do with tidying
up and making consistent across all companies is the finding and
presentation of the tariff information.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Bob H" wrote in message
...
On 28/03/2013 14:05, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Fred wrote:

I was wondering about the various devices like "current cost",
"kilawatt", and "owl" that measure your electricity usage. I know they
have been discussed on here before and some people have said why do
you need one of these when you already have an electricity meter, and
there is some logic in that.

My electricity direct debit has jumped from 60-odd pounds per month to
ninety-odd pounds. I think that's due to changes in prices rather than
changes in usage, however I would like to see what I am using to see
if there is anywhere I can tweak some savings. I think using one of
these meters might be quicker and easier rather than read the "proper"
meter every night or do mental arithmetic based on how many flashes of
the LED or rotations of the disc (depending on your meter) there are.

Are these makes all much the same or are some models better than
others? It would be nice to be able to view the data on the computer
and it would be even nicer if the device logged usage so that I did
not have to leave the computer on to download from the device in real
time: that would only add to my usage!

Why don't you just read your own meter on the first of the month each
month and record the readings? Shove the differences into a spreadsheet
and thus record how your usage varies. Not too onerous.


I read my meter every day more or less to keep track of what is being used
by what appliance.

I too read and record my meter every night to keep track of my useage.

Arfa

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Almost impossible on some suppliers sites and when you do finding the
tarrif for your area and then all the caveats in a 20 page .pdf ain't
easy either. If there is one place that could seriously do with tidying
up and making consistent across all companies is the finding and
presentation of the tariff information.

Absolutely, it is done quite deliberately, and is similar to
banks constantly changing their accounts so that existing
customers find themselves on pitiful interest rates.

However, whilst the government's attempts to simplify matters is
welcome, the result is likely to be a leveling of existing rates,
which will mean that those of us who have managed (or hope we
have) to get a good deal will find themselves having to pay more
in future.

We would all like to pay less than average, and it isn't going to
happen :-(


Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Martin Brown writes:

I found a couple of orphaned wall warts drawing 20W continuously behind

The OWL will heavily over-estimate the load of those.
They won't have been anything like 10W each, but possibly 10VA.

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.


I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

Even if there wasn't a plug nearby, bit of wire sticking out the receiver
and a couple of pins to stick through the insulation of those big wires the
clamp goes round

I thought similar, but figured as the RX unit plugs in, couldent they have
used an AC wall wart instead of a DC one, done the rectifcation inside the
meter, after getting the wave form data from the incoming AC signal,
prolly wont work as the wall wart is a SMPS, but i dunno,

Seems all these meters don't bother about power factors etc, even tho enough
people comment on it being something much desired.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:50:21 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:07:05 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

AFAIK there is only one true "no standing charge" tarrif out there,
from EBICO. If you don't use any power your bill is zero. The unit
cost is higher, 14.08 v 9.04 here, but most most standing charges are
well over 10p/day.

We're on ScottishPower and if we were to use zero we'd pay zero. It's a
NSC tariff, and there are the expensive units and the slightly less so
ones.

Zero use was a bad example. Say the first 500 units are Tier 1 at 20p,
Tier 2 is 10p. Ebico 15p.

Use 500 units:
"No standing charge" 500 * 0.20 = £100
Ebico 500 * 0.15 = £75

Use 1000 units:
"No standing charge" (500 * 0.20) + (500 * 0.10) = £150
Ebico 1000 * 0.15 = £150


I'm with Ebico and every time I've looked at comparison sites they've
proudly declared that they can save me -£x, where x can be £5 upwards, then
say switch now!
One company sent me a letter, after I'd looked on such a site, to tell when
I'd be switched from Ebico. I got in touch with Ebico and it was sorted PDQ.
Also, if I'm ahead on the gas at the end of the 'summer' there isn't a
refund but at the end of the winter it's just about right.

I'm hoping that the gov.'s interference doesn't bork everything - I do not
want standing charge or front-end weighting on electricity of 250 -
350kWh/Q!


--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.


I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).


I don't know how accurate it is at handling a heavily non-sinusoidal
current waveform - for example, if it derives something other than
the RMS value, then it's not even giving you the VA rating, and you
might be getting something either higher or lower than the real
value.

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

Also, how low is the power factor likely to be in a house?

"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.


I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).


I don't know how accurate it is at handling a heavily non-sinusoidal
current waveform - for example, if it derives something other than
the RMS value, then it's not even giving you the VA rating, and you
might be getting something either higher or lower than the real
value.

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

Most switchmode power supplies these days have a 'universal' power factor
correcting front end, but the current draw by some older ones that do not
have a PFC front end, could be extremely dirty and asymmetric, leading power
meters to come up with some nonsense readings on these types.

Arfa


Also, how low is the power factor likely to be in a house?

On Mar 29, 8:37*pm, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:









* *Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. *The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).

I don't know how accurate it is at handling a heavily non-sinusoidal
current waveform - for example, if it derives something other than
the RMS value, then it's not even giving you the VA rating, and you
might be getting something either higher or lower than the real
value.

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?


You won't except in certain electronic devices.
The sine wave is generated in rotating electrical generators except in
very rare cases, Where 99% of all our power comes from.

Also, how low is the power factor likely to be in a house?

An uncorrected electric motor may give a power factor of around 0.7.
(Varies on level of load.)
Heating loads have a power factor of unity (1)

From a power usage point of view, you can ignore power factor, your
electricity meter takes no account of it.

On Mar 29, 8:37*pm, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:









* *Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. *The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).


The voltage you get varies hugely depending on many factors.
It is nominally these days 230V
Mine varies between 220 and 260 volts.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Mar 29, 8:37 pm, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:









Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).


The voltage you get varies hugely depending on many factors.
It is nominally these days 230V
Mine varies between 220 and 260 volts.


Does that depend on whether the sun's shining, Harry ? :-)

Arfa

In article ,
"Arfa Daily" writes:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

The strangest one I've seen from a commercial product is my
microwave (non-inverter type).

The strangest one I've seen is in something I designed myself,
which is a voltage dropper for operating a 120V cooking appliance
on 240V. I chop out the centre of each half cycle, so I'm only
drawing current during the lower voltage parts of the sine wave
(which is the complete opposite of many electronic loads nowadays).

Most switchmode power supplies these days have a 'universal' power factor
correcting front end,

I think that's only products over 25W (certainly it's 25W for
SMPSU's integrated into lighting).

but the current draw by some older ones that do not
have a PFC front end, could be extremely dirty and asymmetric, leading power
meters to come up with some nonsense readings on these types.

Typically, they draw current only during the +ve and -ve mains
voltage peaks. Actually, linear PSUs were pretty much the same
(and that's because most SMPSUs start with a linear PSU).

An exception is dimming switched mode PSUs designed for an ordinary
(triac, phase control) dimmer, where the SMPSU omits the smoothing
capacitor, because it needs to not operate during the 'off' period
of each half wave. Electronic 12V halogen lighting transformers are
of this type. So were some dimming CFLs (cold cathode types, but they
seem to have vanished now).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:43:56 -0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

The voltage you get varies hugely depending on many factors.
It is nominally these days 230V
Mine varies between 220 and 260 volts.

Does that depend on whether the sun's shining, Harry ? :-)

Presumably pushed 7 V over spec by them as well. Unless it's just more
normal harry bull****.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mar 30, 11:43*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On Mar 29, 8:37 pm, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

* *Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-28, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
The OWL doesn't have enough data to make an accurate measurement
like your meter does.

I have one of those (on loan from the local library) & noted that
neither of the components (the clamp-on ammeter & transmitter; the
receiver & display) plugs in --- they both run on batteries --- so
there's no way for it to measure the phase difference or power
factor.

I have a socket within 1 metre of the meter, so I could use something
with a plug-in ammeter-transmitter, but is that an unusual layout?

In a domestic situation, the OWL will never under-read, since domestic
customers are charged for kWh rather than kVAh --- is that correct?

For most practical purposes, probably yes. It would underread if
your mains voltage was higher than it was set to or guessing.

Good point, I forgot about that. *The OWL lets you pick the voltage
from a fixed list (IIRC, 110, 120, 230, 240, & 250; mine is about 246
according to the Maplin plug-through meter, so I use 250).

The voltage you get varies hugely depending on many factors.
It is nominally these days 230V
Mine varies between 220 and 260 volts.

Does that depend on whether the sun's shining, Harry ? * * * *:-)

Arfa

Yes it does. The voltage rises when I'm exporting. About two volts as
far as I can tell.
It was a lot more variation until they put a bigger transformers in.

On Mar 30, 2:53*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:43:56 -0000, Arfa Daily wrote:
The voltage you get varies hugely depending on many factors.
It is nominally these days 230V
Mine varies between 220 and 260 volts.

Does that depend on whether the sun's shining, Harry ? * * * *:-)

Presumably pushed 7 V over spec by them as well. Unless it's just more
normal harry bull****.

--
Cheers
Dave.

There is an AC (and DC) voltmeter on the inverter.
Also AC/DC current, frequency, Kw, Kwh, Day/date/year
(I don't believe they are particularly accurate)
and a graph of the daily power generated.
Plus lots of self monitoring crap.

Oh and £. So long as you tell it the cost/Kwh.

On 2013-03-31, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,
Fred wrote:

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:05:21 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:


Why don't you just read your own meter on the first of the month each
month and record the readings?

I think that these meters give a faster response, i.e. you can run
around the house switching sockets off individually and seeing the
drop there and then, rather than switching off one socket per day and
measuring the difference each morning.

You can also see how much difference switching lights off in
unoccupied rooms makes.


I got one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000Q7PJGW/

for measuring individual devices. It understands power factor, too.

That's good for finding out how much energy the various dishwasher &
washing machine programmes use, & for learning that most of our wall
warts use no measurable power when plugged in but not charging.

On 2013-03-30, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"Arfa Daily" writes:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

The strangest one I've seen from a commercial product is my
microwave (non-inverter type).

The strangest one I've seen is in something I designed myself,
which is a voltage dropper for operating a 120V cooking appliance
on 240V. I chop out the centre of each half cycle, so I'm only
drawing current during the lower voltage parts of the sine wave
(which is the complete opposite of many electronic loads nowadays).

I doubt many people have that! Interesting idea: what are the
advantages & disadvantages compared with a transformer?

In article ,
Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-30, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"Arfa Daily" writes:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

The strangest one I've seen from a commercial product is my
microwave (non-inverter type).

The strangest one I've seen is in something I designed myself,
which is a voltage dropper for operating a 120V cooking appliance
on 240V. I chop out the centre of each half cycle, so I'm only
drawing current during the lower voltage parts of the sine wave
(which is the complete opposite of many electronic loads nowadays).

I doubt many people have that! Interesting idea: what are the
advantages & disadvantages compared with a transformer?

Very much smaller and lighter weight.

We did have a large transformer for it, but lugging that out and
setting it up was a pain (although the transformer was twice the
power it needed to be, which didn't help). The reason I use just
the lower voltage part of the sine wave is to limit the peak
voltage for the sake of the product's insulation - it's still
higher than with real 120VAC, but not as high as it would be with
something like a phase control dimmer.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2013-04-03, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
Adam Funk writes:
On 2013-03-30, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
"Arfa Daily" writes:


"Adam Funk" wrote in message
...

Where would you get heavily non-sinusoidal currents in domestic use?

The strangest one I've seen from a commercial product is my
microwave (non-inverter type).

The strangest one I've seen is in something I designed myself,
which is a voltage dropper for operating a 120V cooking appliance
on 240V. I chop out the centre of each half cycle, so I'm only
drawing current during the lower voltage parts of the sine wave
(which is the complete opposite of many electronic loads nowadays).

I doubt many people have that! Interesting idea: what are the
advantages & disadvantages compared with a transformer?

Very much smaller and lighter weight.

We did have a large transformer for it, but lugging that out and
setting it up was a pain (although the transformer was twice the
power it needed to be, which didn't help). The reason I use just
the lower voltage part of the sine wave is to limit the peak
voltage for the sake of the product's insulation - it's still
higher than with real 120VAC, but not as high as it would be with
something like a phase control dimmer.

Interesting, thanks.