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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. -- (\_/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#2
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y:
There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Ask again if we get several Marches like this in short succession :-o -- Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/ http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage Reading this on the web? See: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet |
#3
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? |
#4
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 08:25 Bob Martin wrote in uk.d-i-y:
Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? My point exactly! -- Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/ http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage Reading this on the web? See: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet |
#5
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
In article , Bob Martin
writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. -- (\_/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#6
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 11:01 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y:
In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. -- Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/ http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage Reading this on the web? See: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet |
#7
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:12:01 AM UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 11:01 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. The documanetry I saw a while ago put most of it down to an extra 4% in humidity is what's causing the extremes. But the underlying trend, weather ;-) it be global warming or climate change does it realy matter if we can't do anything about it other than tax whatever they choose to blame. |
#8
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 11:12:01 AM UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 11:01 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. -- Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/ http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage Reading this on the web? See: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet Whoops. When I saw frozen spring I thought frozen well spring and thought that sounds interesting. |
#9
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 11:01 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? It may mean that we actually get weather more appropriate to our high latitude in a world that is on average globally warmer but not for us. But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. That can still be a sampling effect we get much better reporting of weather extremes now than we have had in previous decades. There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". It is impossible to tell from any single incident, but if it keeps on happening then I think you have to accept that the climate is changing. When "hundred year floods" occur every couple of years I think you have to pay attention to the risks of building new homes on flood plains. Plenty of homes have been built on fields that locals knew were very dodgy but that doesn't help the incomers until they get wet feet. BTW What happened to the uninsurable flood insurance showdown? I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. The vast majority of respectable meteorologists have long since agreed that global warming is a real effect and that CO2 and other greenhouse gasses are responsible for driving it. It is hard to decide whether or not the warmer world will be stormier with more extremes or not. You can argue it either way from a physics point of view and either could be correct depending on the circumstances - thermal gradient from pole to equator will decrease as the poles warm faster but a warmer atmosphere will carry more water vapour and with it latent heat. Vertically there may be a steeper thermal gradient at some latitudes. There is a rearguard action by US coal, Exxon and it's deniers for hire to prevent the general public hearing what scientists have to say. They honed their disinformation skills working for big tobacco manufacturing doubt to keep the suckers smoking. And it is a very effective tactic. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#10
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 11:01 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". ad climate change is f course the longer term change in the average of the weather. I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. I contend its a false and arbitrary distinction invented in a hurry by warmists to explain why it isn't getting warmer. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#11
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:12:01 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
There's "climate change" and there're "fluctuations in weather sometimes hitting extremes". I contend we are dealing with the latter until a majority or respectable meteorologists agree otherwise. They do: http://www.desmogblog.com/2012/11/15...niers-have-no- credibility-science-one-pie-chart - but that only shows what a seamless conspiracy they're part of (almost as hermetic as the moon landing hoax). But fortunately we've got plenty of Internet non-meteorologists demolishing their warmist myths by pointing out blatantly obvious factors that thousands of professionals in the field have all overlooked. -- John Stumbles Never believe anyone who claims to be a liar |
#12
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Mar 26, 11:01*am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, We are not experiencing extremes. MBQ |
#13
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Mar 26, 12:02*pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Mar 26, 11:01*am, Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, We are not experiencing extremes. MBQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti...climate_change If you want to look at record extremes, you'll find most are fairly recent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weather_records |
#14
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 11:01, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. What extremes? Just because something is the best/worst on record doesn't make it an extreme. Most weather records haven't been kept for long enough to know what the extremes are. Even in the UK many records are only for the last 20-40 years. The current British weather is not even extreme we have had far worse in the last 50 years. |
#15
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 13:00, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/03/2013 11:01, Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. What extremes? Just because something is the best/worst on record doesn't make it an extreme. Most weather records haven't been kept for long enough to know what the extremes are. Even in the UK many records are only for the last 20-40 years. The current British weather is not even extreme we have had far worse in the last 50 years. well 1962 /63 was below zero from Dec 26th to practically the end of march, and IIRC snow fell on many occasions during that period. They told us it was the start of a new ice age. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#16
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 13:00, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/03/2013 11:01, Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. What extremes? Just because something is the best/worst on record doesn't make it an extreme. Most weather records haven't been kept for long enough to know what the extremes are. Even in the UK many records are only for the last 20-40 years. The current British weather is not even extreme we have had far worse in the last 50 years. Considering how long we have had people recording the weather (Fitzroy systematically - and many, many others with varying accuracy and completeness over at least many centuries), I fail to understand why they keep referring to "since records began" as referring to a period within my own lifetime. Have they thrown all the old records out? Have they decided that the standards to which they were made are not compatible? If they have done that, then they need to be much more forthcoming about what they actually mean. -- Rod |
#17
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 11:01, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. The odds of *some* part of the world experiencing a weather extreme in any given year are about 100:1 on. the odds of breaking a 100 year record of some kind or other in any given year in any given country are also very high.. Greater than 50%. "Coldest temperatures ever recorded for 2 a.m. on March the 24th, at Oban' say weather experts. etc etc. The point is weather and climate have massive natural variation and we have a very poor handle on it without introducing the straw man of AGW. we always have experienced extreme weather events in the UK and worldwide. They just weren't very newsworthy. Heck nobody even HEARD of Bangladesh before the Beatles. But they had been starving to death for decades. The world is littered with dead civilisations who appeared to have been able to support themselves on land which has been desert for at least 2000 years in some cases. climate change got them. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#18
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 13:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/03/13 11:01, Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Bob Martin writes [Please could you snip your quotes? Thanks] Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? But it's not just in the UK that we're experiencing weather extremes, it's worldwide. The odds of *some* part of the world experiencing a weather extreme in any given year are about 100:1 on. the odds of breaking a 100 year record of some kind or other in any given year in any given country are also very high.. Greater than 50%. "Coldest temperatures ever recorded for 2 a.m. on March the 24th, at Oban' say weather experts. etc etc. The point is weather and climate have massive natural variation and we have a very poor handle on it without introducing the straw man of AGW. we always have experienced extreme weather events in the UK and worldwide. They just weren't very newsworthy. Heck nobody even HEARD of Bangladesh before the Beatles. But they had been starving to death for decades. The world is littered with dead civilisations who appeared to have been able to support themselves on land which has been desert for at least 2000 years in some cases. climate change got them. Wasn't it East Pakistan before? -- Rod |
#19
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 08:25, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim Watts wrote: On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? more than you think. Unless Britain is now located on the planet Zarg. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#20
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 8:25 AM, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim wrote: On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? Britain's recent cold snap may have more to do with the Jet Stream moving further south during the last 7 years allowing the NE colder climate to have an effect? -- Learn why we are suffering.. www.zeitgeistthefilm.com/ |
#21
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 16:52, RayL12 wrote:
Britain's recent cold snap may have more to do with the Jet Stream moving further south during the last 7 years allowing the NE colder climate to have an effect? the question is: why has it moved? Global warming? A butterfly farted in Buenos Aires? A chicken crossed a road in Texas? -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#22
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 4:55 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/03/13 16:52, RayL12 wrote: Britain's recent cold snap may have more to do with the Jet Stream moving further south during the last 7 years allowing the NE colder climate to have an effect? the question is: why has it moved? Global warming? A butterfly farted in Buenos Aires? A chicken crossed a road in Texas? Very good! -- One click voting to change the world. https://secure.avaaz.org/en/ Join Now! Be a part of people power. |
#23
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 16:52 RayL12 wrote in uk.d-i-y:
Britain's recent cold snap may have more to do with the Jet Stream moving further south during the last 7 years allowing the NE colder climate to have an effect? I heard it was the Jet stream being too far south. Did not realise it has been going that way for 7 years. -- Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/ http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage Reading this on the web? See: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet |
#24
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 17:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 26 March 2013 16:52 RayL12 wrote in uk.d-i-y: Britain's recent cold snap may have more to do with the Jet Stream moving further south during the last 7 years allowing the NE colder climate to have an effect? I heard it was the Jet stream being too far south. Did not realise it has been going that way for 7 years. Of course, for all we know, it was going the wrong way for a very long time before that and is now reverting to where it should be. Colin Bignell |
#25
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Mar 26, 8:25*am, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim Watts wrote: On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. *Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. *I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? You got that wrong. It's what has global climate got to do with British weather? I'd have thought it was apparent to even you now. Extreme weather events becoming more frequent is the answer. |
#26
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 16:56, harry wrote:
I'd have thought it was apparent to even you now. Extreme weather events becoming more frequent is the answer. Can you provide a chart of extreme weather event frequency over a suitably large stretch of time? And is one countrywide, multi-day, heavily snow-drifted situation one event? And a waterspout off the Isle of Wight another? Or each stroke of lightning (pretty extreme at the point it strikes)? -- Rod |
#27
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 16:56, harry wrote:
I'd have thought it was apparent to even you now. Extreme weather events becoming more frequent is the answer. Which extreme events are they? how much more frequent? from when? Anyone would think the population has forgotten 1963 when there was some winter weather. Or maybe one of the very frequent ones before then. |
#28
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 16:56, harry wrote:
On Mar 26, 8:25 am, Bob Martin wrote: in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim Watts wrote: On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? You got that wrong. It's what has global climate got to do with British weather? I'd have thought it was apparent to even you now. Extreme weather events becoming more frequent is the answer. except they aren't becoming more frequent at all. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#29
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
in 1215859 20130326 195027 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/03/13 16:56, harry wrote: On Mar 26, 8:25 am, Bob Martin wrote: in 1215549 20130326 065810 Tim Watts wrote: On Tuesday 26 March 2013 05:40 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y: There's another couple of threads currently running about climate change, but they've strayed somewhat off topic. Spotted this in the Grauniad yesterday: "Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss Climate scientists have linked the massive snowstorms and bitter spring weather now being experienced across Britain and large parts of Europe and North America to the dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...spring-arctic- sea-ice-loss Thoughts: 1) I know, it's the Grauniad 2) these are scientists, not greenies dressed up as scientists 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I'm going with "weather is essentially random and has unpredictable extremes" until enough real scientists say otherwise. Here you go: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?a...winter-history very similar to March 1962 which of course preceeded the famous winter of 1963. Another notable one from the same link: "1849: April, great snowstorm hit Southern England. Coaches buried in drifts. Notably late snowfall." So this winter is nothing that hasn't happened before - it's just the tip end of an extreme. So I call "********" and "desparate to keep the [global warming] dream alive". Just what does a spell of British weather have to do with global climate? You got that wrong. It's what has global climate got to do with British weather? I'd have thought it was apparent to even you now. Extreme weather events becoming more frequent is the answer. except they aren't becoming more frequent at all. Yes they are. (Note that my statement has as much supporting evidence as yours.) |
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013:
3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ -- Mike Lane UK North Yorkshire mike_lane at mac dot com |
#31
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and, if you read the small print, Hapag Lloyd include a lot of let out clauses that allow them to modify the itinerary. Colin Bignell |
#32
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
Nightjar wrote on Mar 26, 2013:
On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and... Yes but it took him nearly three years to do it (1903 - 1906) - hardly a pleasure cruise! -- Mike Lane UK North Yorkshire mike_lane at mac dot com |
#33
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 10:36, Mike Lane wrote:
Nightjar wrote on Mar 26, 2013: On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and... Yes but it took him nearly three years to do it (1903 - 1906) - hardly a pleasure cruise! Scientific expeditions rarely are and it demonstrates that the passage has been navigable before. As I pointed out in the rest of my post, Hapag Lloyd don't guarantee that they will do it at all. Colin Bignell |
#34
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
Nightjar wrote on Mar 26, 2013:
On 26/03/2013 10:36, Mike Lane wrote: Nightjar wrote on Mar 26, 2013: On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and... Yes but it took him nearly three years to do it (1903 - 1906) - hardly a pleasure cruise! Scientific expeditions rarely are and it demonstrates that the passage has been navigable before. As I pointed out in the rest of my post, Hapag Lloyd don't guarantee that they will do it at all. Colin Bignell I'm sure many, if not all cruise companies have let out clauses in their contracts - they'd be foolish not to. The fact remains that they expect to be able to navigate the north west passage in a cruise ship, not a small shallow draft fishing vessel -- Mike Lane UK North Yorkshire mike_lane at mac dot com |
#35
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Mar 26, 9:25*am, Nightjar
wrote: On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. *Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. *I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and, if you read the small print, Hapag Lloyd include a lot of let out clauses that allow them to modify the itinerary. Colin Bignell More ******** It took him three years to do it because of being locked in ice for two years continously. Not the Summer conditions prevailing today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwe...sen_expedition |
#36
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 17:02, harry wrote:
On Mar 26, 9:25 am, Nightjar wrote: On 26/03/2013 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ Roald Amundsen navigated it at the beginning of the 20th century and, if you read the small print, Hapag Lloyd include a lot of let out clauses that allow them to modify the itinerary. Colin Bignell More ******** It took him three years to do it because of being locked in ice for two years continously. Not the Summer conditions prevailing today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwe...sen_expedition He was doing it in a fishing boat. Given the speed of a modern cruise liner, he might well have completed in a single season. Read your own link for the various people who have, from 1944 onwards. Colin Bignell |
#37
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
Mike Lane wrote:
I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? Even more interesting, the north-*east* passage is opening up to navigation. http://www.wunderground.com/climate/...rnPassages.asp (Tho', every Google search for "northeast passage" says: "I think you mean northwest passage") JGH |
#38
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/13 08:23, Mike Lane wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ yes, it did. But so too has it done before, many times. And this year its already well ABOVE last years figures. I expect its 'only weather' after all :-) hell we know that there were rising temps between 1970 and 1998, and eventually that would cause ice to melt, and the melting of that ice - as the AGW ists themselves told us, would potentially block the gulf stream leading to colder NW europe. What they didn't do was to finish that off by saying 'and that would of course re-freeze the arctic'. *shrug* so thirty years of warming has melted the arctic a bit, causing colder weather that will re-freeze the arctic. It doesn't mean that CO2 has anything to do with it. Its all part of the massive multi decadal climate oscillations that we know happen anyway. El nino/La Nina, pacific decadal, North Atlantic oscillation, etc etc. these all happen at different rates depending on the time lags inherent in the air and water and land masses involved, and sometimes they are all in step and we get GLOBAL WARMING or A MINI ICE AGE and sometimes they are out of step and we get AVERAGE CLIMATE. No CO2 is involved at all. No polar bears were harmed in the making of this post. etc. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
#39
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On Mar 26, 12:59*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 26/03/13 08:23, Mike Lane wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote on Mar 26, 2013: 3) I have no particular leanings either way on the climate change argument. *Some people say the amount of sea ice has hardly changed, some say it's massively reduced. *I don't know who to believe. I don't think there is any doubt that the arctic sea ice has reduced over the last decade. The fact that the north west passage is now routinely navigable during summer months is surely sufficient evidence of this? https://hapaglloydcruises.wordpress....hwest-passage/ yes, it did. But so too has it done before, many times. And this year its already well ABOVE last years figures. I expect its 'only weather' after all :-) * hell we know that there were rising temps between 1970 and 1998, and eventually that would cause ice to melt, and the melting of that ice - as the AGW ists themselves told us, would potentially block the gulf stream leading to colder NW europe. What they didn't do was to finish that off by saying 'and that would of course re-freeze the arctic'. *shrug* so thirty years of warming has melted the arctic a bit, causing colder weather that will re-freeze the arctic. It doesn't mean that CO2 has anything to do with it. Its all part of the massive multi decadal climate oscillations that we know happen anyway. El nino/La Nina, pacific decadal, North Atlantic oscillation, etc etc. these all happen at different rates depending on the time lags inherent in the air and water and land masses involved, and sometimes they are all in step and we get GLOBAL WARMING or A MINI ICE AGE and sometimes they are out of step and we get AVERAGE CLIMATE. No CO2 is involved at all. No polar bears were harmed in the making of this post. etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gl..._1880-2012.svg |
#40
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"Scientists link frozen spring to dramatic Arctic sea ice loss"
On 26/03/2013 17:21, harry wrote:
On Mar 26, 12:59 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote: No CO2 is involved at all. No polar bears were harmed in the making of this post. etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gl..._1880-2012.svg From NASA. Well known for getting the science right and damn the funding. |
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