as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Jim K wrote:

as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

All depends.
Give them a box of unordered receipts and invoices,and it'll be £500+.
Give them a neatly, ordered pile, which are sub-divided into different
expense types etc, and dated correctly, then you may get away with £250.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On 25 Jan, 21:17, Jim K wrote:
as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Totally unnecessary at that level, if you have at least half a brain.

MBQ

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:25:55 +0000, A.Lee wrote:

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

All depends.
Give them a box of unordered receipts and invoices,and it'll be £500+.

And the rest...

Give them a neatly, ordered pile, which are sub-divided into different
expense types etc, and dated correctly, then you may get away with
£250.

Yep, the less work they have to do the better for your wallet. It's not
difficult to keep good clear records, either in a hand written ledger or
in a spreadsheet. Keep receipts in date order, invoices in paid order. My
accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return. It's
the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant, what he
doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC and what will
(or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth knowing.

The Self Employed tax return uses the following categories for allowable
business expenses in boxes:

10 - Cost of goods bought for resale or goods used.
11 - Car/van and travel expenses - after private use proportion.
12 - Wages, salaries and other staff costs.
13 - Rent, rates, power and insurance costs.
14 - Repairs and renewals of property and equipment.
15 - Accountancy, legal and other professional fees.
16 - Interest and bank and credit card etc, charges.
17 - Phone, fax, stationary and other office costs.
18 - Other allowable business expenses - client entertaining costs are
not an allowable expense.

You don't need to fill in actual figures in boxes 10 to 18 if your
turnover is below £73,000 (2011/12), just the total in box 19. It's still
worth using this break down in your year end accounts though as you can
see where you are spending money and how things change from year to year..
And should your turnover exceed the limit you have the right numbers to
put in the boxes...

I'd actually split the "Car/van and travel expenses" into "Car/van" and
"Travel expenses" categories to keep track of the car/van costs on their
own.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/01/2013 21:38, Man at B&Q wrote:
On 25 Jan, 21:17, Jim K wrote:
as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Totally unnecessary at that level, if you have at least half a brain.

MBQ

I agree. I was a sole trader 20k ish turnover. I did my accounts myself
for 11 years and presented the paperwork on one A4 sheet of paper to he
hmrc every year.
It was a good feeling when I used to get the letter x amount of weeks
later which said. dear Mr Thomas, thank you for your computation. Your
figures have been accepted etc etc.
I stopped being self employed for two years then went back to it (same
thing) but this time I used an accountant on the belief I was going to
get it cheap (friend of a friend thing) It didn't happen. cost was
approx £450 per year. all they nearly did was add numbers up 52 times
and place everything in a nice folder. My computer did all that before I
had sent the paperwork off.

On Jan 25, 9:38 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On 25 Jan, 21:17, Jim K wrote:

as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Totally unnecessary at that level, if you have at least half a brain.

MBQ

******

cheers
Jim K

On Jan 25, 9:56 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:25:55 +0000, A.Lee wrote:
sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

All depends.
Give them a box of unordered receipts and invoices,and it'll be £500+..

And the rest...

Give them a neatly, ordered pile, which are sub-divided into different
expense types etc, and dated correctly, then you may get away with
£250.

Yep, the less work they have to do the better for your wallet. It's not
difficult to keep good clear records, either in a hand written ledger or
in a spreadsheet. Keep receipts in date order, invoices in paid order. My
accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return. It's
the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant, what he
doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC and what will
(or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth knowing.

The Self Employed tax return uses the following categories for allowable
business expenses in boxes:

10 - Cost of goods bought for resale or goods used.
11 - Car/van and travel expenses - after private use proportion.
12 - Wages, salaries and other staff costs.
13 - Rent, rates, power and insurance costs.
14 - Repairs and renewals of property and equipment.
15 - Accountancy, legal and other professional fees.
16 - Interest and bank and credit card etc, charges.
17 - Phone, fax, stationary and other office costs.
18 - Other allowable business expenses - client entertaining costs are
not an allowable expense.

You don't need to fill in actual figures in boxes 10 to 18 if your
turnover is below £73,000 (2011/12), just the total in box 19. It's still
worth using this break down in your year end accounts though as you can
see where you are spending money and how things change from year to year.
And should your turnover exceed the limit you have the right numbers to
put in the boxes...

I'd actually split the "Car/van and travel expenses" into "Car/van" and
"Travel expenses" categories to keep track of the car/van costs on their
own.

--
Cheers
Dave.

many thanks

Cheers
Jim K

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:46:25 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:

My accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return.
It's the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant,
what he doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC
and what will (or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth
knowing.

many thanks

No problem but bear in mind my 2nd sentance above. Keeping the books is
easy as others have, somewhat abrasively, pointed out. As is drawing up
the end of year Accounts, *provided* you've kept on top of the paper work
and not just shoved everything into a shoe box "to do later". The rules
for Accounts don't keep changing like the Tax rules do and introduce new
things, removing old, altering thresholds etc etc that HMRC do every
year. I have better things to do than try and keep up with all the tax
changes.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:25:55 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Jim K wrote:

as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

All depends....

snip

cue: old accounting joke.

Ask a scientist what is two and two and he will tell you "4."

Ask an engineer and he'll get out his slide rule (I told you it was an
old joke) and come back with the answer "approximately 3.9957."

Ask an accountant and he'll reply, "How much do you want it to be,
sir?"

Nick

On 25/01/2013 21:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:25:55 +0000, A.Lee wrote:

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

All depends.
Give them a box of unordered receipts and invoices,and it'll be £500+.

And the rest...

Give them a neatly, ordered pile, which are sub-divided into different
expense types etc, and dated correctly, then you may get away with
£250.

Yep, the less work they have to do the better for your wallet. It's not
difficult to keep good clear records, either in a hand written ledger or
in a spreadsheet. Keep receipts in date order, invoices in paid order. My
accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return. It's
the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant, what he
doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC and what will
(or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth knowing.


Is the correct answer.....
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:46:25 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:

My accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return.
It's the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant,
what he doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC
and what will (or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth
knowing.

many thanks

No problem but bear in mind my 2nd sentance above. Keeping the books is
easy as others have, somewhat abrasively, pointed out. As is drawing up
the end of year Accounts, *provided* you've kept on top of the paper work
and not just shoved everything into a shoe box "to do later". The rules
for Accounts don't keep changing like the Tax rules do and introduce new
things, removing old, altering thresholds etc etc that HMRC do every
year. I have better things to do than try and keep up with all the tax
changes.

Having just settled my accountants fee (don't ask:-) for the last two
years, this thread struck a bit of a bell!

I am now *self employed semi-retired*: bits of the farm business
continue to tick over with a turnover of around 10k and a similar amount
from rents.

I am confident I can handle VAT returns and annual declarations but
struggle to grasp the concept of the capital account. Most of my plant
and remaining machinery is fully depreciated so I am beginning to wonder
if an accountant is value for money.

What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book. I have purchased several cheap accounting
packages which are either too complex to remember how to use only once
in 3 months or don't have enough provision for purchase inputs.

Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?


--
Tim Lamb

On 25/01/2013 22:46, Jim K wrote:
On Jan 25, 9:38 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On 25 Jan, 21:17, Jim K wrote:

as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Totally unnecessary at that level, if you have at least half a brain.

MBQ

******

cheers
Jim K


I'd agree that an accountant is totally unnecessary at that level. Money
in, money out. How difficult can that be? For some reason beginners
think having an accountant adds credibility to their operation.

I used one for 10 years but their fees were rising well above inflation
each year. The day he told me that he was the one keeping me out of
prison was the day he got the boot. I did my own from then on and The
Revenue never queried anything I submitted. On one occasion they even
drew my attention to an allowance that I had overlooked. The old adage
re the tax office remains true. If you go to them, they take their hat
off to you. If they come to you, they take your trousers off

I think these days most accountants will give you a copy of their own
spreadsheet so that you have only to fill in the details.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:34:30 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

I am now *self employed semi-retired*: bits of the farm business
continue to tick over with a turnover of around 10k and a similar
amount from rents.

Keeping on a Tax Accountant will (should!) ensure that you claim
everything you are entitled to regarding Pension(s), and other age
related allowance(s),

I am confident I can handle VAT returns and annual declarations but
struggle to grasp the concept of the capital account. Most of my plant
and remaining machinery is fully depreciated so I am beginning to
wonder if an accountant is value for money.

Not that I have much capital plant, that is another reason for having the
Tax Accountant I've never got my head around it. Any Capital Gains is
another reason.

What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book.
snip
Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?

I use a spreadsheet, it has evolved over the years. It does the VAT maths
for both the FRS and Cash Accounting methods (so I can make sure the FRS
isn't costing me money). For the next financial year I might look at the
expense categories and bring them inline with HMRC's but they are pretty
close anyway.

As you say keeping the books, VAT returns etc is simple. It's the Tax
side that is a nightmare, partly because it's so damn complex and partly
beacuse they keep fiddleing with the rules, abolish one allowance but
bring in something else etc etc. If you present a Tax Accountant with a
nice clear spreadsheet printout that has done all the maths and has the
right numbers (nett v gross) and all the supporting paper work nicely
ordered as per the spreadsheet lines, it really shouldn't cost that much
for them to do the Tax Return.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , at 23:49:15 on
Fri, 25 Jan 2013, Nick Odell remarked:
Ask a scientist what is two and two and he will tell you "4."

Ask an engineer and he'll get out his slide rule (I told you it was an
old joke) and come back with the answer "approximately 3.9957."

I'm old enough to remember that slide rules do multiplication, division
and so on, not addition (yes, they add logs together, but not numbers
like 2+2).
--
Roland Perry

On 26/01/13 09:34, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:46:25 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:

My accountant draws up my annual accounts and also does my tax return.
It's the latter that I really employ him for. He's a Tax Accountant,
what he doesn't know about tax and the current requirements of HMRC
and what will (or will not...) raise an eyebrow with them isn't worth
knowing.

many thanks

No problem but bear in mind my 2nd sentance above. Keeping the books is
easy as others have, somewhat abrasively, pointed out. As is drawing up
the end of year Accounts, *provided* you've kept on top of the paper work
and not just shoved everything into a shoe box "to do later". The rules
for Accounts don't keep changing like the Tax rules do and introduce new
things, removing old, altering thresholds etc etc that HMRC do every
year. I have better things to do than try and keep up with all the tax
changes.

Having just settled my accountants fee (don't ask:-) for the last two
years, this thread struck a bit of a bell!

I am now *self employed semi-retired*: bits of the farm business
continue to tick over with a turnover of around 10k and a similar amount
from rents.

I am confident I can handle VAT returns and annual declarations but
struggle to grasp the concept of the capital account. Most of my plant
and remaining machinery is fully depreciated so I am beginning to wonder
if an accountant is value for money.

What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book. I have purchased several cheap accounting
packages which are either too complex to remember how to use only once
in 3 months or don't have enough provision for purchase inputs.

Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?


Almost easier to roll your own.

Capital asset register is simply a place where you stick stuff that you
use, so that you can write it off over a period and reduce profits, and
hence tax, but stops you from claiming it as a once off expense in the
first year.

So if you e.g. buy a tractor, the cost of it does NOT go into the P&L,
it goes into the capital register and a fraction of that can be removed
and added to the loss side of the P&L each year.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:34:30 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

I use a spreadsheet, it has evolved over the years. It does the VAT maths
for both the FRS and Cash Accounting methods (so I can make sure the FRS
isn't costing me money). For the next financial year I might look at the
expense categories and bring them inline with HMRC's but they are pretty
close anyway.

As you say keeping the books, VAT returns etc is simple. It's the Tax
side that is a nightmare, partly because it's so damn complex and partly
beacuse they keep fiddleing with the rules, abolish one allowance but
bring in something else etc etc. If you present a Tax Accountant with a
nice clear spreadsheet printout that has done all the maths and has the
right numbers (nett v gross) and all the supporting paper work nicely
ordered as per the spreadsheet lines, it really shouldn't cost that much
for them to do the Tax Return.

I suspect a lot of my accountants bill is the office trainee entering my
hand written data to their Sage software so they can reconcile bank
accounts and card statements. Annoyingly, I have already spent time
doing a full reconciliation manually so they never find anything.

Capital gains on property is fairly straightforward now.

Currently and luckily the VAT people are very relaxed about chasing late
returns as they invariably owe me money.


--
Tim Lamb

I'd agree that an accountant is totally unnecessary at that level. Money
in, money out. How difficult can that be? For some reason beginners think
having an accountant adds credibility to their operation.

I used one for 10 years but their fees were rising well above inflation
each year. The day he told me that he was the one keeping me out of prison
was the day he got the boot. I did my own from then on and The Revenue
never queried anything I submitted. On one occasion they even drew my
attention to an allowance that I had overlooked. The old adage re the tax
office remains true. If you go to them, they take their hat off to you. If
they come to you, they take your trousers off

I think these days most accountants will give you a copy of their own
spreadsheet so that you have only to fill in the details.


I think that a decent accountant is worth his weight. As many others have
said, it's almost impossible to keep up with the legislation and how it
affects you. My accountant sends out a newsletter virtually every week
telling of what's come in, what's gone out, and what it (potentially) means
to me. Things like determining how much tax you can claim on petrol,
electricity, phone, use of your house, insurance, using your missus to do
your books, and a million other little things, is all stuff that a proper
chartered accountant (not a back street book-keeper) knows about. But for
me, the strongest thing in favour of employing one, is that it gives your
figures pretty much total credibility with the Revenue, and if in the
unlikely event they do decide to investigate you, you have a person at the
interviews with you, fighting your corner (my accountant has a small annual
insurance policy that I pay to cover this).

I know two people - one had a small shop, and the other was a jobbing
builder - who did not employ an accountant. Both were investigated at random
by the Revenue, and had their lives made a total misery for months. In the
end, they found nothing wrong with the shopkeeper, and he didn't even get an
apology. The builder got 'fined' thousands by them, which he disputes to
this day. It virtually put him out of business. He has since stopped taking
on any 'projects' where he manages getting trades in, and instead sticks to
building garden walls and the like. What a waste ...

Arfa

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 26/01/13 09:34, Tim Lamb wrote:
What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book. I have purchased several cheap accounting
packages which are either too complex to remember how to use only once
in 3 months or don't have enough provision for purchase inputs.

Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?


Almost easier to roll your own.

I have tried. There are numerous tutorials available and they appear to
make sense at the time. 6 weeks later it reverts to being a mystery:-)

Capital asset register is simply a place where you stick stuff that you
use, so that you can write it off over a period and reduce profits, and
hence tax, but stops you from claiming it as a once off expense in the
first year.

So if you e.g. buy a tractor, the cost of it does NOT go into the P&L,
it goes into the capital register and a fraction of that can be removed
and added to the loss side of the P&L each year.

Yes. That is clear enough. The downside is when you sell a depreciated
asset for more than the written down value.

I suppose the mystery for me is compounded by the inclusion of farm
buildings and land which are not separately identified and appear each
year as a global figure. Part of the accountants mystique!




--
Tim Lamb

On 25 Jan, 22:46, Jim K wrote:
On Jan 25, 9:38 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:

On 25 Jan, 21:17, Jim K wrote:

as per subject line ;)

sole trader
sub 20k turnover
nothing complicated

Jim K

Totally unnecessary at that level, if you have at least half a brain.

MBQ

******

Any man who denies it is a liar. How about you?

Doesn't alter what I said, unless, of course, you *don't* have half a
brain. You should cut down on the w*****g, and develop the business.
One day it nay be large enough to make an accountant worthwhile. Then
you can use the time saved to go play with yourself.

MBQ

On 26 Jan, 11:01, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
I'd agree that an accountant is totally unnecessary at that level. Money


I think that a decent accountant is worth his weight.

I know two people - one had a small shop, and the other was a jobbing
builder - who did not employ an accountant.

Were they both sub 20K turnover in today's money? If not, what point
are you trying to make?

MBQ

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:33:53 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

Ask a scientist what is two and two and he will tell you "4."

Ask an engineer and he'll get out his slide rule (I told you it was an
old joke) and come back with the answer "approximately 3.9957."

I'm old enough to remember that slide rules do multiplication, division
and so on, not addition (yes, they add logs together, but not numbers
like 2+2).

I was thinking that these days the scientist would say "4 with sigma 5"
and the engineer would say "4".

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Arfa Daily
writes
snip
But for me, the strongest thing in favour of employing one, is that it
gives your figures pretty much total credibility with the Revenue, and
if in the unlikely event they do decide to investigate you, you have a
person at the interviews with you, fighting your corner (my accountant
has a small annual insurance policy that I pay to cover this).

I know two people - one had a small shop, and the other was a jobbing
builder - who did not employ an accountant. Both were investigated at
random by the Revenue, and had their lives made a total misery for
months. In the end, they found nothing wrong with the shopkeeper, and
he didn't even get an apology. The builder got 'fined' thousands by
them, which he disputes to this day. It virtually put him out of
business. He has since stopped taking on any 'projects' where he
manages getting trades in, and instead sticks to building garden walls
and the like. What a waste ...

I think the revenue rightly suspect builders are not fully accounting
for cash payments for extension work where 20% VAT is applicable.

--
Tim Lamb

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


I'd agree that an accountant is totally unnecessary at that level. Money
in, money out. How difficult can that be? For some reason beginners think
having an accountant adds credibility to their operation.

I used one for 10 years but their fees were rising well above inflation
each year. The day he told me that he was the one keeping me out of
prison was the day he got the boot. I did my own from then on and The
Revenue never queried anything I submitted. On one occasion they even
drew my attention to an allowance that I had overlooked. The old adage re
the tax office remains true. If you go to them, they take their hat off
to you. If they come to you, they take your trousers off

I think these days most accountants will give you a copy of their own
spreadsheet so that you have only to fill in the details.


I think that a decent accountant is worth his weight. As many others have
said, it's almost impossible to keep up with the legislation and how it
affects you.

It might be impossible for one individual but there are online forums for
almost every trade these days and someone in the collective group will have
the knowledge to point you in the right direction.

Whilst it is obviously(?) advantageous to have the "credibility" of accounts
prepared by an accountant for a 200K turnover, for 20K this is completely
unnecessary and I would very much doubt if using one for such a turnover
will save you his fee using "deductions" over and above that which you can
discover with a small amount of research yourself.

Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,

YMMV

tim

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:31:44 -0000, tim..... wrote:

It might be impossible for one individual but there are online forums
for almost every trade these days and someone in the collective group
will have the knowledge to point you in the right direction.

I have better things to do than visit bloody damn awful user interface
forums for information of doubtful origin and credabilty.

Whilst it is obviously(?) advantageous to have the "credibility" of
accounts prepared by an accountant for a 200K turnover, for 20K this is
completely unnecessary

That I agree with and at 200k you'll be filing an audit as well so have
to employ a 3rd party.

Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,

If it was just a one off bit research it wouldn't be so bad but HMRC are
constantly fiddling with things, many of which won't have any affect, and
you still need to check that, after you have spent time finding out about
the changes in the first place.

Ideally you need to find a self employed Tax Accountant rather than go
through an general purpose accountancy firm, the overheads of the latter
push up the fee.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:06:49 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book. I have purchased several cheap accounting
packages which are either too complex to remember how to use only
once in 3 months or don't have enough provision for purchase inputs.

Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?

Almost easier to roll your own.

I have tried. There are numerous tutorials available and they appear to
make sense at the time. 6 weeks later it reverts to being a mystery:-)

Build your own from scratch, it really isn't difficult and as you have
built it you will know how it works. A starting point would be to
recreate the "Expenditure" and "Income" parts of your existing paper
ledger as a couple of pages in a spreadsheet. Then add useful additional
bits like VAT calculations on another page as required.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , tim.....
writes


Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,
My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and take
the risk of making a mistake?


YMMV

tim





--
Nick (=----)

In message , at 13:16:34 on Sat, 26
Jan 2013, Nick remarked:

My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and
take the risk of making a mistake?

It's still costing you 80% (or whatever) of the £250. If he's convinced
you the taxman is paying the whole lot, then...
--
Roland Perry

In message , Nick
writes
In message , tim.....
writes


Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,
My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and
take the risk of making a mistake?

Yes. That saves you £50 as a standard rate payer:-)

Dave and TNP are quite right; I really ought to make the effort to
present my accounts in a form which avoids duplication of effort at the
accountants.

--
Tim Lamb

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:06:49 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

What I would really like is an excel spread sheet to replace my
Guildhall account book. I have purchased several cheap accounting
packages which are either too complex to remember how to use only
once in 3 months or don't have enough provision for purchase inputs.

Does such a package exist or must they be individually crafted?

Almost easier to roll your own.

I have tried. There are numerous tutorials available and they appear to
make sense at the time. 6 weeks later it reverts to being a mystery:-)

Build your own from scratch, it really isn't difficult and as you have
built it you will know how it works. A starting point would be to
recreate the "Expenditure" and "Income" parts of your existing paper
ledger as a couple of pages in a spreadsheet. Then add useful additional
bits like VAT calculations on another page as required.

Oh well! Another attempt on the way:-)

I'm still on office '95 but that doesn't seem to be a huge issue for
excel. I struggle with the simple things like creating enough space to
enter legible column titles....


--
Tim Lamb

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On 26 Jan, 11:01, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
I'd agree that an accountant is totally unnecessary at that level.
Money


I think that a decent accountant is worth his weight.

I know two people - one had a small shop, and the other was a jobbing
builder - who did not employ an accountant.

Were they both sub 20K turnover in today's money? If not, what point
are you trying to make?

MBQ


It makes no difference whether they were sub 20k or not. If the Revenue
decide to have a go at you, the procedure is the same for any turnover. Both
of these people did their own books, and submitted their own returns, so had
no backup from a professional outfit. The point I was making was that if
your number comes up, the Revenue are far less likely to pursue an
investigation against you, given their limited resources these days, than if
your accounts were submitted by a recognised chartered accountancy company
whom they already know and are used to working with. It would be
professional suicide for an accountancy company to ever be found to be
submitting dodgy returns to the Revenue on behalf of their clients.

And just so that everyone understands the level of these investigations,
they had the builder guy accounting for every penny that he spent - right
down to how much a year he spent on haircuts, and yes, that *is* the truth -
so you can imagine the stress levels that this generated. For what it's
worth, I had known the guy for a very long time, and I genuinely believe
that he was not 'on the fiddle'. He was just not that sort of person. He
simply fell foul of not having enough hours in the day to cope with both
work and keeping his books immaculate plus, I suspect, not having enough
understanding of the finer points of accountancy. Some bits of legislation
are a minefield of contradictions, and it would be so easy to make an
unwitting mistake ...

Arfa

"Nick" wrote in message
...
In message , tim.....
writes


Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,
My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and take
the risk of making a mistake?

--
Nick (=----)


+1

Arfa

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:16:34 on Sat, 26
Jan 2013, Nick remarked:

My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and take
the risk of making a mistake?

It's still costing you 80% (or whatever) of the £250. If he's convinced
you the taxman is paying the whole lot, then...

and if part of that cost is filling in your SA (which in some of the posts
it is), then that part is not claimable at all and doing so is a tax
evasion.

tim

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 14:35:40 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

I struggle with the simple things like creating enough space to
enter legible column titles....

I don't use excel but can't you just click and drag the divider mark in
the row that has the column reference letter? I must admit to swearing a
lot at excel the few times I have to use it, it's not very friendly.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
And just so that everyone understands the level of these investigations,
they had the builder guy accounting for every penny that he spent -
right down to how much a year he spent on haircuts, and yes, that *is*
the truth -

Didn't know haircuts were an allowable expense for the self employed.
Wonder if I can submit a retrospective claim?

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 14:45:38 on Sat, 26 Jan
2013, Arfa Daily remarked:
And just so that everyone understands the level of these
investigations, they had the builder guy accounting for every penny
that he spent - right down to how much a year he spent on haircuts,

Since when were haircuts tax deductible?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 14:59:41 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

And just so that everyone understands the level of these
investigations, they had the builder guy accounting for every penny
that he spent - right down to how much a year he spent on haircuts,

Since when were haircuts tax deductible?

For a builder not, for a TV presenter...

It would have been the revenue looking for spending of income that didn't
offically exist. ie spending the earnings from "cash jobs".

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2013 14:59:41 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

And just so that everyone understands the level of these
investigations, they had the builder guy accounting for every penny
that he spent - right down to how much a year he spent on haircuts,

Since when were haircuts tax deductible?

For a builder not, for a TV presenter...

Quite.

It would have been the revenue looking for spending of income that
didn't offically exist. ie spending the earnings from "cash jobs".

I'd say it unreasonable to expect a self employed type - like a builder -
to keep such receipts anyway. Not that I've ever been given a receipt
after having my hair cut. They're usually self employed too. ;-)

--
*Venison for dinner again? Oh deer!*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message o.uk, at
15:25:23 on Sat, 26 Jan 2013, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
Since when were haircuts tax deductible?

For a builder not, for a TV presenter...

If barristers can't get their court clothes tax deductible, I'm not sure
a TV presenter can argue their haircuts are.

It would have been the revenue looking for spending of income that didn't
offically exist. ie spending the earnings from "cash jobs".

Boggle. How did they even know he was paying for haircuts, without
receipts?
--
Roland Perry

On Saturday 26 January 2013 14:29 Tim Lamb wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In message , Nick
writes
In message , tim.....
writes


Of course, if you are too lazy to do that research then just pay the
account's fee,
My accountant sets his £250 against my tax bill as a business expense.
Unless he's unique, why would anyone bother doing it themselves and
take the risk of making a mistake?

Yes. That saves you £50 as a standard rate payer:-)

Dave and TNP are quite right; I really ought to make the effort to
present my accounts in a form which avoids duplication of effort at the
accountants.


First find an accountant who is not a moron.

The only time I worked for myself, I went through all this. I asked them for
a model spreadhseet to use. They gave me one. It was the worst constructed
excel sheet I've ever seen, even by Excel standards.

Despite doing all the legwork for them (and my work was service based and
did not contain many lines) all the savings they achieved were mysteriously
offset by their rather non small fees. And then some.

And they still made mistakes.

This was a small firm - not a bloke operating out of his bedroom.

Next time, I think I'd buy a software package that could churn out accounts
for tax and any other required reasons and learn how to use it...

I have a rough idea what you can get by with calling a business expense, and
I did not see the accountants magic up much more than that, and suggesting
how to split salary to self vs dividend payments.

If I had to use an accountant again, I'd be very careful to interview them
about their process.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

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"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:45:38 on Sat, 26 Jan
2013, Arfa Daily remarked:
And just so that everyone understands the level of these
investigations, they had the builder guy accounting for every penny
that he spent - right down to how much a year he spent on haircuts,

Since when were haircuts tax deductible?

They arent, YTC, they work out/estimate how much you spend a year, down
to very small details, like haircuts, how much milk you have delivered a
week etc, add it all up, then see if you are fiddling the books, as you
seemed to have spent £15k this year, yet you only declared a £10k
income.

--
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