Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232

The team looked at the life-cycle impact of conventional and electric
vehicles.

In essence, they considered how the production, the use and the end-of-
life dismantling of a car affects the environment, explained co-author
Prof Anders Hammer Stromman.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more
environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol
and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about
twice that of conventional vehicles."

In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of
toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.

Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of
conventional car production.

"Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential
for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog,
human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and
mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on
par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually
zero direct emissions during operation," according to Prof Stromman.
'Counterproductive' efforts
Continue reading the main story
€œStart Quote

A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power
generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the
magnitude of 10% or so with diesel€�

Dieter Zetsche Chief executive, Daimler

With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these
cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road,
the report says.

However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low-
carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential
for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to
tailpipe emissions" over time.

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power,
electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report
said.
--
Tony Sayer

On Oct 5, 8:25*am, tony sayer wrote:
Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232

The team looked at the life-cycle impact of conventional and electric
vehicles.

In essence, they considered how the production, the use and the end-of-
life dismantling of a car affects the environment, explained co-author
Prof Anders Hammer Stromman.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more
environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol
and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about
twice that of conventional vehicles."

In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of
toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.

Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of
conventional car production.

"Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential
for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog,
human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and
mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on
par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually
zero direct emissions during operation," according to Prof Stromman.
'Counterproductive' efforts
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

* * A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power
generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the
magnitude of 10% or so with diesel”

Dieter Zetsche Chief executive, Daimler

With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these
cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road,
the report says.

However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low-
carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential
for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to
tailpipe emissions" over time.

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power,
electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report
said.
--
Tony Sayer

So you mean they're OK with Solar PV/wind turbines?
I might go out and get one.

harry wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:25 am, tony sayer wrote:
Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232

The team looked at the life-cycle impact of conventional and electric
vehicles.

In essence, they considered how the production, the use and the end-of-
life dismantling of a car affects the environment, explained co-author
Prof Anders Hammer Stromman.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more
environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol
and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about
twice that of conventional vehicles."

In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of
toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.

Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of
conventional car production.

"Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential
for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog,
human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and
mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on
par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually
zero direct emissions during operation," according to Prof Stromman.
'Counterproductive' efforts
Continue reading the main story
€œStart Quote

A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power
generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the
magnitude of 10% or so with diesel€�

Dieter Zetsche Chief executive, Daimler

With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these
cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road,
the report says.

However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low-
carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential
for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to
tailpipe emissions" over time.

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power,
electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report
said.
--
Tony Sayer

So you mean they're OK with Solar PV/wind turbines?
I might go out and get one.

well do that - no don't. Cost you will be stick beside your computer all
winter.
OTOH the computer wont work either. So that's a plus.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person will
have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have some kind
of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where pedestrians might
be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to suggest that this
noise should not be at the discretion of the driver, but always on and
changing with the vehicle speed.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232

The team looked at the life-cycle impact of conventional and electric
vehicles.

In essence, they considered how the production, the use and the end-of-
life dismantling of a car affects the environment, explained co-author
Prof Anders Hammer Stromman.

"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more
environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol
and diesel cars are made.

"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about
twice that of conventional vehicles."

In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of
toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.

Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of
conventional car production.

"Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential
for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog,
human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and
mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on
par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually
zero direct emissions during operation," according to Prof Stromman.
'Counterproductive' efforts
Continue reading the main story
"Start Quote

A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power
generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the
magnitude of 10% or so with diesel"

Dieter Zetsche Chief executive, Daimler

With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these
cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road,
the report says.

However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low-
carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential
for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to
tailpipe emissions" over time.

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power,
electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report
said.
--
Tony Sayer

On Oct 5, 8:56*am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars.

There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric
cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and
rural towns is bull.

We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly
enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there
immensely. But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking
would be a great help.

It shouldn't need heavy policing.

Everything else is just political platitudes and environmental
stupidities.

"tony sayer" wrote in message

A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power
generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the
magnitude of 10% or so with diesel"

What does that mean?

On 05/10/2012 08:13, tony sayer wrote:

Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232
....
With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these
cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road,
the report says.

However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low-
carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential
for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to
tailpipe emissions" over time.

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power,
electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report
said.

A German study, done when they still had nuclear power and 49% of their
power came from coal, concluded that there was no overall difference in
emissions, apart from the fact that electric cars were responsible for
10 times as much sulphur dioxide.

Colin Bignell

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:56:29 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their electric
vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly and with
low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle quack like
a duck. :-)

I've long anticipated the day when electric cars will have "engine noise"
choices in the same way that phones today have ringtones.

I rather fancy having steam engine noises if I had an electric car (which I
really don't see ever happening).

Tim

"Brian Gaff" wrote:
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person will
have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have some kind
of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where pedestrians might
be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to suggest that this
noise should not be at the discretion of the driver, but always on and
changing with the vehicle speed.

Brian

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:13:44 +0100, Tim+ wrote:

I've long anticipated the day when electric cars will have "engine
noise" choices in the same way that phones today have ringtones.

I rather fancy having steam engine noises if I had an electric car
(which I really don't see ever happening).

Tim

"Brian Gaff" wrote:
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better.
This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap
elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need
to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person
will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have
some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where
pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

Brian

I know one owner of a series 2A Landie that has a steam train hooter as a
horn sound/siren thingy

Avpx

Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:56 am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars.

There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric
cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and
rural towns is bull.

We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly
enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there
immensely. But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking
would be a great help.

Not really. Nothing stopping folk doing that now but there not a lot as a
diesel owner that you can do about it. It's in the nature of the beast.

Well of course there is one thing, and that's buy a new diesel car with a
diesel particulate filter.

Tim

On 05/10/2012 09:36, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:56 am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars.

There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric
cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and
rural towns is bull.

We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly
enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there
immensely.

My car has a green sticker that shows it complies with the Euro 4
specification. It is a requirement to be able to drive into several
cities in Germany.

But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking
would be a great help.

Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is
a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

Colin Bignell

On Oct 5, 8:56*am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap elsewhere.
*One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person will
have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have some kind
of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where pedestrians might
be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to suggest that this
noise should not be at the discretion of the driver, but always on and
changing with the vehicle speed.

Brian

The ones in Japan have such a device. However it is disabled in the
UK,they are illegal.

On Oct 5, 2:19*pm, Tim+ wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:56 am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better.. This
is the strength of current electric cars.

There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric
cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and
rural towns is bull.

We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly
enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there
immensely. But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking
would be a great help.

Not really. Nothing stopping folk doing that now but there not a lot as a
diesel owner that you can do about it. It's in the nature of the beast.

Well of course there is one thing, and that's buy a new diesel car with a
diesel particulate filter.

Tim

New diesel cars are fitted with a catalytic converter. Unreliable and
expensive.

In article ,
Jules Richardson wrote:
I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their
electric vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly
and with low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle
quack like a duck. :-)

A G-Whiz sounding like a Ferrari V12? [shudder]

--
*I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , The Nomad
writes
I know one owner of a series 2A Landie that has a steam train hooter as a
horn sound/siren thingy


I always wanted to fit a destroyer siren to mine.


Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:56:29 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their electric
vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly and with
low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle quack like
a duck. :-)


Ah yes. I particulaly like hurrican.wav

http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockm...und_iid.369707

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jules Richardson wrote:
I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their
electric vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly
and with low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle
quack like a duck. :-)

A G-Whiz sounding like a Ferrari V12? [shudder]

Well we could all **** ourselves laughing. How about some 'whispering
death'

http://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/...spering-death/

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:13:44 +0100, Tim+ wrote:

I've long anticipated the day when electric cars will have "engine
noise" choices in the same way that phones today have ringtones.

I rather fancy having steam engine noises if I had an electric car
(which I really don't see ever happening).

Other interesting noises:

- clippety-clop/trot/gallop
- a nice turbine noise/jet engine



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:15:29 -0500, The Nomad wrote:

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:13:44 +0100, Tim+ wrote:

I've long anticipated the day when electric cars will have "engine
noise" choices in the same way that phones today have ringtones.

I rather fancy having steam engine noises if I had an electric car
(which I really don't see ever happening).

Tim

"Brian Gaff" wrote:
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be
better.
This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap
elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers
need to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind
person will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need
to have some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area
where pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as
far as to suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of
the driver, but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

Brian

I know one owner of a series 2A Landie that has a steam train hooter as
a horn sound/siren thingy

My Honda CB72 used to have Maserati air horms. People kept looking for
the car...

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

harry wrote:
On Oct 5, 2:19 pm, Tim+ wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:56 am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:

I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This
is the strength of current electric cars.

There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric
cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and
rural towns is bull.

We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly
enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there
immensely. But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking
would be a great help.

Not really. Nothing stopping folk doing that now but there not a lot as a
diesel owner that you can do about it. It's in the nature of the beast.

Well of course there is one thing, and that's buy a new diesel car with a
diesel particulate filter.

Tim

New diesel cars are fitted with a catalytic converter. Unreliable and
expensive.

And a DPF. Look it up. They're different devices that do different jobs.

Tim

Huge wrote:
On 2012-10-05, tony sayer wrote:

However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of
power, electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more
harm, the report said.

Quelle surprise.

What you need is a car that runs on "happy thoughts". Or is that "fair
dust"?


--
Adam

On 05/10/2012 18:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ah yes. I particulaly like hurrican.wav

http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockm...und_iid.369707

That's a few minutes I'll never get back.

http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockmusic/summary/play.cfm/sound_iid.370033

.... on the advice of my father, who said he preferred the Mustang.
Still a Merlin though!

Andy

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better.
This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap
elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need to
be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person
will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have
some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where
pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver, but
always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

About 10% of the population are deaf so drivers should never assume they
have been heard, even using the horn.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is a
fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Andy Champ wrote:
On 05/10/2012 18:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ah yes. I particulaly like hurrican.wav

http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockm...und_iid.369707


That's a few minutes I'll never get back.

http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockmusic/summary/play.cfm/sound_iid.370033


... on the advice of my father, who said he preferred the Mustang. Still
a Merlin though!

Andy
should have been at Shuttleworth the other weekend. Both doing flypasts.
Mustang whistles its gunports in high G manoeuvres .


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there
is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.
Nah. Big E European trucks

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there
is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially
if you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile
are taxis.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there
is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially
if you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile
are taxis.

Thats unfair. Latvian tricks don't carry (legal) passengers at all!


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is
a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially if
you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile are
taxis.

Trams maybe as they tend not to be diesel.
Trains smoke a lot except electric ones.

Do your passenger mile figures for buses include all the time they have no
passengers?
Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport
sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can ignore
the pollution produced.

On 05/10/2012 20:58, dennis@home wrote:


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be
better. This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the
crap elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need
to be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind
person will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need
to have some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area
where pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as
far as to suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of
the driver, but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

About 10% of the population are deaf so drivers should never assume they
have been heard, even using the horn.

Depends where you are. In Japan deaf people are not allowed to drive.

And some interesting information he

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/r...c3-Hearing.htm

--
Rod

dennis@home wrote:


"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there
is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially
if you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger
mile are taxis.

Trams maybe as they tend not to be diesel.
Trains smoke a lot except electric ones.

I'm including the pollution from the central power source, not just the
local stuff. This is *much* lower in France, where they use a lot of
nuclear power for transport. For a passenger travelling from Paris to
their South coast, for example, it's 550 Kg of CO2 by air, about 220 per
person by car with four passengers, 150 or so by bus and 50 by train,
all assuming normal loadings, due to the train being powered by nuclear
electricity. Paris city centre to Nice centre by train is actually
quicker than flying, too, since they opened the new TGV line.

Do your passenger mile figures for buses include all the time they have
no passengers?

Yes. Break even as far as pollution goes with cars as normally used
(i.e. one or two passengers) is at about a dozen passengers on average
during the shift. Our buses easily exceed that. We could improve the
figures by not running outside peak hours, but the council insist that
we run services during the day and late in the evening for "social
reasons". We don't get the full cost per pass holder journey, but the
small amount we do get helps keep the service running. Apart from the
pass revenue, all our services are run on a "customer pays all the
costs" basis.

Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport
sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can
ignore the pollution produced.

I'm not a "Green". I look at the figures (Especially the ones within my
field of knowledge) without a deliberate bias.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 05/10/2012 21:00, dennis@home wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...


Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there
is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.

I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.

Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.

Tatty old Transits seem to be the worst for smoke around here. The local
bus company replaced its entire fleet not too long ago.

Colin Bignell

On 05/10/2012 14:02, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:56:29 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their electric
vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly and with
low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle quack like
a duck. :-)

I think that we should stick with standard IC engine sounds, preferably
suited to the type of car. Pedestrians will be used to the sound and
will automatically recognise that they need to watch out for a car
whereas other sounds might not trigger the "check what's coming"
response and sporty engine sounds will let them know that a vehicle may
be accelerating quicker than average.

SteveW

On 05/10/2012 20:58, dennis@home wrote:


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be
better. This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the
crap elsewhere.
One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need
to be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind
person will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need
to have some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area
where pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as
far as to suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of
the driver, but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

About 10% of the population are deaf so drivers should never assume they
have been heard, even using the horn.

At least the deaf are aware that they will not hear a vehicle
approaching and will (hopefully) be more on the lookout whether driving
or crossing the road, whereas the hearing will hear no normal vehicle
noise with an electric vehicle and may not be as alert.

SteveW

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:11:16 +0100, Terry Fields wrote:

Tim+ wrote:

I've long anticipated the day when electric cars will have "engine
noise" choices in the same way that phones today have ringtones.

I rather fancy having steam engine noises if I had an electric car
(which I really don't see ever happening).

How about the sound of an LE Velocette?

Good one.


--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:41:19 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 05/10/2012 14:02, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:56:29 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their
electric vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly
and with low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle
quack like a duck. :-)

I think that we should stick with standard IC engine sounds, preferably
suited to the type of car. Pedestrians will be used to the sound and
will automatically recognise that they need to watch out for a car
whereas other sounds might not trigger the "check what's coming"
response and sporty engine sounds will let them know that a vehicle may
be accelerating quicker than average.

Anyone who doesn't turn to investigate the sound of a feckin' huge duck
approaching really should stay indoors.

On Friday, October 5, 2012 9:24:42 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message

...

dennis@home wrote:





"Nightjar" wrote in message

...





Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is

a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.



I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.



Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.



Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially if

you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile are

taxis.



Trams maybe as they tend not to be diesel.

Trains smoke a lot except electric ones.



Do your passenger mile figures for buses include all the time they have no

passengers?

Such as whenb I'd love to get on a bus with no passengers that was in service of course. I;'ve been on a bus with as little as 3 passengers, it was a night bus that went through stratford and leyton at the time it was the only night bus that didn't go through central London. This was about 5:00am and the service was mainly used by dock workers, the service got cancelled about 15 years ago.



Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport

sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can ignore

the pollution produced.

True, but how often does that actually happen percentage wise in the real world?

whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 9:24:42 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
"John Williamson" wrote in message

...

dennis@home wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is
a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.
I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.
Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.
Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially if
you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile are
taxis.


Trams maybe as they tend not to be diesel.

Trains smoke a lot except electric ones.



Do your passenger mile figures for buses include all the time they have no

passengers?

Such as whenb I'd love to get on a bus with no passengers that was in service of course. I;'ve been on a bus with as little as 3 passengers, it was a night bus that went through stratford and leyton at the time it was the only night bus that didn't go through central London. This was about 5:00am and the service was mainly used by dock workers, the service got cancelled about 15 years ago.


Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport

sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can ignore

the pollution produced.

True, but how often does that actually happen percentage wise in the real world?


About 90% outside the rush hours


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Yes, I like the idea of uploadable vehicle sounds.
We could hav David macaroon on blue cars.....

Brian

--
From the Bed of Brian Gaff.
The email is valid as
Blind user.
"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:41:19 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 05/10/2012 14:02, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:56:29 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
Some might go as far as to
suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver,
but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.

I think users should be able to upload their own sounds to their
electric vehicles, a bit like a phone's ringtone. Preferably wirelessly
and with low security, so that I can make any passing electric vehicle
quack like a duck. :-)

I think that we should stick with standard IC engine sounds, preferably
suited to the type of car. Pedestrians will be used to the sound and
will automatically recognise that they need to watch out for a car
whereas other sounds might not trigger the "check what's coming"
response and sporty engine sounds will let them know that a vehicle may
be accelerating quicker than average.

Anyone who doesn't turn to investigate the sound of a feckin' huge duck
approaching really should stay indoors.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport

sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can
ignore

the pollution produced.

True, but how often does that actually happen percentage wise in the
real world?


About 90% outside the rush hours

90% of the buses round your way run totally empty outside rush hour? Do
you kill off all your OAPs with Freedom passes?

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.