I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't get
forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

(I know - I need to stock up!)

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 11:26:45 GMT, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole
slots. A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Round head is what you need.

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't
get forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

Small hollow wall anchor and setting tool.

Longer screw so the plug is fully expanded before the screw is fully
home.
--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
DerbyBorn wrote:
I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole
slots. A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Easiest to use round head self tappers for this. Or at least, they tend to
be easier to buy than 'proper' wood screws for this job, but more
expensive.

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

..

Easiest to use round head self tappers for this. Or at least, they
tend to be easier to buy than 'proper' wood screws for this job, but
more expensive.

Just what I ended up finding when I fixed a telephone base unit to my wall.

On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

(you can still buy the traditional wood screws if you want)

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't get
forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

Look at plasterboard readidrive inserts for that. They screw in like a
large deep thread screw, then the screw drives into them. The screw does
not need to be set at any particular position because its not the screw
that achieves the tight fit.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 5, 1:50*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.


NT

(you can still buy the traditional wood screws if you want)

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't get
forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

Look at plasterboard readidrive inserts for that. They screw in like a
large deep thread screw, then the screw drives into them. The screw does
not need to be set at any particular position because its not the screw
that achieves the tight fit.

There are several good PB fittings, try them all, then you know their
strengths and limitations. Hammer-in metal plugs, redidrive, toggle,
expanding plastic plugs for light fittings. But none have anything
like the strength of a masonry fixing, or ever will. No matter what
you do you're only fixing to at best half an inch of plaster and
paper.


NT

On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.

On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the
screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in
the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.

To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"
x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad
yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the
screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact
driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could
not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -
it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out
- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it
as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 5, 2:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:



On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.

On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the
screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in
the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.

To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"
x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad
yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the
screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact
driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could
not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -
it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out
- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it
as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)

On weak walls or where max strength is needed, I generally use 3"
holes and insert 2 plugs, one after the other. The 2nd one is cut off
flush once hammered in.

If a hole is crumbling, blow out loose muck, brush inside with pva,
and fill with a filler. Once its set hard after a couple of days you
should get a decent fixing, even on junk masonry


NT

On Sep 5, 2:29*pm, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:



On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:

On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.

On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the
screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in
the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.

To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"
x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad
yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the
screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact
driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could
not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -
it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out
- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it
as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)

On weak walls or where max strength is needed, I generally use 3"
holes and insert 2 plugs, one after the other. The 2nd one is cut off
flush once hammered in.

If a hole is crumbling, blow out loose muck, brush inside with pva,
and fill with a filler. Once its set hard after a couple of days you
should get a decent fixing, even on junk masonry

NT

This lot oughta be shovelled into a wiki article


NT

On 05/09/2012 14:30, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:29 pm, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:



On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:

On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.

On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the
screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in
the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.

To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"
x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad
yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the
screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact
driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could
not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -
it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out
- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it
as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)

On weak walls or where max strength is needed, I generally use 3"
holes and insert 2 plugs, one after the other. The 2nd one is cut off
flush once hammered in.

If a hole is crumbling, blow out loose muck, brush inside with pva,
and fill with a filler. Once its set hard after a couple of days you
should get a decent fixing, even on junk masonry

NT

This lot oughta be shovelled into a wiki article


NT

Can I speak up for the absolutely brilliant Rawlplug "Uno" plugs. Work
in brick, block, plasterboard, whatever.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 05/09/2012 14:29, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:21 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:



On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:

I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Look at "pan head" screws for that application.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good
fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the
plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g
rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.

hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the
OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often
bigger than the drill bit.

Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into
masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"
screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,
and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is
futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.

On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the
screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in
the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.

To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"
x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad
yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the
screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact
driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could
not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -
it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out
- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it
as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)

On weak walls or where max strength is needed, I generally use 3"
holes and insert 2 plugs, one after the other. The 2nd one is cut off
flush once hammered in.

If a hole is crumbling, blow out loose muck, brush inside with pva,
and fill with a filler. Once its set hard after a couple of days you
should get a decent fixing, even on junk masonry

I had some hotmelt wallplug sticks once... when you get a lousy hole,
pump the stick in with a glue gun, allow to cool and then drive a screw
straight into the set "plug". Worked quite well in fact.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/09/2012 14:30, Huge wrote:
On 2012-09-05, John Rumm wrote:

Look at plasterboard readidrive inserts for that. They screw in like a
large deep thread screw, then the screw drives into them.

And then they pull out of the plasterboard & whatever you've put up falls
off the wall.

Depends on your load type. Plaster board is quite good on shear loads,
but pretty poor on any load that tends to pull on the fixing. The hollow
wall anchor being the best of a bad lot for that case.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:
I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't get
forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

(I know - I need to stock up!)

I had numerous problems with curtain poles that kept coming down (partly
crumbly walls and partly kids pulling hard on the curtains. None of the
fixings I tried would get a grip and even the two part epoxy putty type
ones just pulled lumps out. My solution was to use 5" screws, which with
a bit of effort I managed to use as self-tappers into the Catnics! The
heads had to be ground down a bit and the keyholes opened up a bit to
fit, but neither of those poles is going anywhere!

SteveW

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 2:29:09 PM UTC+1, NT wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:21*pm, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/09/2012 13:56, NT wrote:







On Sep 5, 1:50 pm, John Rumm wrote:

On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:



I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good

shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.

A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.



Look at "pan head" screws for that application.



Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall

plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge

themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.



I am not sure that is true... I find no difficulty getting a very good

fixing with modern screws and plugs. You need to match the screw to the

plug, and for masonry stick to the heavier gages such as 10s and 12g

rather than 8 or less (unless we are talking short small screws.



hole size is also a bit critical. I dont know what type of drill the

OP is using, but if its an old style masonry bit, the hole is often

bigger than the drill bit.



Another mistake folk sometimes make is to use too short a screw into

masonry. To get any strength its necessary to go reasonably deep. 3"

screws are good when max strength is needed, 2.5" for general purpose,

and 2" for light fixings. Trying to get good purchase on a 1"er is

futile, you'll only attach it to the weak plaster.



On that subject, another tip worth remembering is that you can put the

screw in the plug and tap it with a hammer to seat the plug deeper in

the wall, rather than leave half of it in the plaster.



To give some measure of how firm a fixing you can get, I used some 2.5"

x 12 screws into "brown" plugs in a 7mm hole for hanging a big rad

yesterday. On one hole I did not actually drill it deep enough, so the

screw bottomed out with the head a few mm short of home. My 18V impact

driver (with a fixing and bit snapping maximum of 147Nm torque) could

not twist the screw, to either strip the thread, or wind the plug out -

it just stopped dead and was not going to budge. (reversed the screw out

- drilled the hole deeper through the existing plug (hence removing it

as plastic chips!), re-plugged and tried again)



On weak walls or where max strength is needed, I generally use 3"

holes and insert 2 plugs, one after the other. The 2nd one is cut off

flush once hammered in.



If a hole is crumbling, blow out loose muck, brush inside with pva,

and fill with a filler. Once its set hard after a couple of days you

should get a decent fixing, even on junk masonry

FSVO "filler"

Jim K

On 05/09/2012 12:26, DerbyBorn wrote:
I never seem to have the right ones when I need one that has a good
shoulder - used when fitting something to the wall that has key-hole slots.
A countersunk head just doesn't work properly.

Also - the modern screws are not as good as the old ones when using a wall
plug as they tend to cut a thread into the plug rather than wedge
themselves in by virtue of their tapered thread root and blunt threads.

Similar theme with wall plugs for plasterboard walls. If attaching
something that needs a screw to be fitted so that something can keyhole
onto it then the screw doesn't get fully tightened so the plug doesn't get
forced open to grip the inside of the plasterboard.

(I know - I need to stock up!)

The bulk of my 'fixing things to walls' activities - and I fix sh*t
loads of things to walls in a week - involves the use of two different
screws & one wall plug.

4 x 30 countersunk Quicksilver
4 x 40 round head Quicksilver
Rawlplug 'Uno' red plugs.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 06/09/2012 10:40, Huge wrote:
On 2012-09-05, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2012 14:30, Huge wrote:
On 2012-09-05, John Rumm wrote:

Look at plasterboard readidrive inserts for that. They screw in like a
large deep thread screw, then the screw drives into them.

And then they pull out of the plasterboard & whatever you've put up falls
off the wall.

Depends on your load type. Plaster board is quite good on shear loads,
but pretty poor on any load that tends to pull on the fixing.

Troo. I sat under a couple of tonnes of manuals on Spur shelves attached
to a p'board wall for some years.

Grey or orange?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/