We need SAP calculations for our extension - I assume because bi-folds are
over 25% of new floor area.

Can anyone recommend an online firm to do these?

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Default] On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:59:31 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

We need SAP calculations for our extension - I assume because bi-folds are
over 25% of new floor area.

Can anyone recommend an online firm to do these?

Presumably you been asked to supply calculations to show that your
proposed extension performs no worse than a notional extension by your
Building Control section. This is shorthand for, "there's no way your
extension will comply with that much glazing, but I can't come out and
say it, so you have to get your own calcs to convince yourself".

If so, what they're looking for is the total additional heat loss from
an excess of glazing in Watts/degree C. You can then try and offset
this heat loss from elsewhere within the extension, or if not
possible, elsewhere in the building (e.g., additional loft insulation,
more efficient boiler, etc.).

If you know how to work out U-values (or your architect does), you
shouldn't need to go to the expense of getting two SAPs ('cos that's
what you'd need - one for the house + notional extension, & one for
the house with improvements + proposed extension).
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
[Default] On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:59:31 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

We need SAP calculations for our extension - I assume because bi-folds are
over 25% of new floor area.

Can anyone recommend an online firm to do these?

Presumably you been asked to supply calculations to show that your
proposed extension performs no worse than a notional extension by your
Building Control section. This is shorthand for, "there's no way your
extension will comply with that much glazing, but I can't come out and
say it, so you have to get your own calcs to convince yourself".

If so, what they're looking for is the total additional heat loss from
an excess of glazing in Watts/degree C. You can then try and offset
this heat loss from elsewhere within the extension, or if not
possible, elsewhere in the building (e.g., additional loft insulation,
more efficient boiler, etc.).

If you know how to work out U-values (or your architect does), you
shouldn't need to go to the expense of getting two SAPs ('cos that's
what you'd need - one for the house + notional extension, & one for
the house with improvements + proposed extension).


It is a standard 'jobs for the boy/girls' thing.
Allegedly the person producing the report has to have a SAP accreditation
specific to the type of building (commercial or residential).
If the glazing is more than 25% of the new floor area BC want a SAP report -
as you say this will be a list of improvements elswhere in the building to
justify the amount of glass, plus a thermal gain calculation to show that in
fact with that much glass the house will be a sauna on a sunny day.

Leaving aside the issue of accreditation (which sounds like a Part P kind of
thing), I just don't have time to learn how to do the detailed calculations
at the moment.
I suspect the BCO doesn't either, and relies on the report from an
accredited SAP person.
Having the architect do it would not be free, anyway, and he would just
offload it to someone with the accreditation and the software package and
pass the charge on at cost plus.

Standard charge seems to be £150+VAT.
Our BCO does them but is off on holiday for a couple of weeks and we need
them soonish.
Sounds a bit suspect, doesn't it?
BCO says "sucks teeth Lot of glazing there, mate, need a SAP report.
Luckily I can do one for you".
However the rules seem pretty specific so it is possibly not as dodgy as it
seems at first glance.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Default] On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 07:45:10 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

It is a standard 'jobs for the boy/girls' thing.
Allegedly the person producing the report has to have a SAP accreditation
specific to the type of building (commercial or residential).
If the glazing is more than 25% of the new floor area BC want a SAP report -
as you say this will be a list of improvements elswhere in the building to
justify the amount of glass, plus a thermal gain calculation to show that in
fact with that much glass the house will be a sauna on a sunny day.

Leaving aside the issue of accreditation (which sounds like a Part P kind of
thing), I just don't have time to learn how to do the detailed calculations
at the moment.
I suspect the BCO doesn't either, and relies on the report from an
accredited SAP person.
Having the architect do it would not be free, anyway, and he would just
offload it to someone with the accreditation and the software package and
pass the charge on at cost plus.

Standard charge seems to be £150+VAT.
Our BCO does them but is off on holiday for a couple of weeks and we need
them soonish.
Sounds a bit suspect, doesn't it?
BCO says "sucks teeth Lot of glazing there, mate, need a SAP report.
Luckily I can do one for you".
However the rules seem pretty specific so it is possibly not as dodgy as it
seems at first glance.

There's a few allegations of misconduct flying around there. I hope
you can substantiate them, otherwise withdraw them.

I notice that in your reply you didn't answer the question of who has
asked you to produce heat loss calculations, and in particular said
that you have to use an acccredited energy assessor. Has this
suggestion come directly from the Local Authority Building Control in
direct response to your submission of a Full Plans application?

It's not the case that if openings 25% floor area then calculations.
Most BCOs will take a reasoned judgement on the areas of openings.
Calculations need to be checked by the BCO on the principle of garbage
in = garbage out, so they need to have some knowledgable in how to
draw up emissions ratings (and how to fiddle them).

In terms of learning the calculations, if you can multiply, add and
work out percentages, then you can do the most basic first part which
is to check the heat loss against a notional building. If it fails
this first test, then, yes, you may need to take into account the
solar gain, etc.

If your BCO is asking for them as part of his plan check then offering
to do them for you at a price, report him to his boss. That is a
sackable offence.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
[Default] On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 07:45:10 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

It is a standard 'jobs for the boy/girls' thing.
Allegedly the person producing the report has to have a SAP accreditation
specific to the type of building (commercial or residential).
If the glazing is more than 25% of the new floor area BC want a SAP
report -
as you say this will be a list of improvements elswhere in the building to
justify the amount of glass, plus a thermal gain calculation to show that
in
fact with that much glass the house will be a sauna on a sunny day.

Leaving aside the issue of accreditation (which sounds like a Part P kind
of
thing), I just don't have time to learn how to do the detailed
calculations
at the moment.
I suspect the BCO doesn't either, and relies on the report from an
accredited SAP person.
Having the architect do it would not be free, anyway, and he would just
offload it to someone with the accreditation and the software package and
pass the charge on at cost plus.

Standard charge seems to be £150+VAT.
Our BCO does them but is off on holiday for a couple of weeks and we need
them soonish.
Sounds a bit suspect, doesn't it?
BCO says "sucks teeth Lot of glazing there, mate, need a SAP report.
Luckily I can do one for you".
However the rules seem pretty specific so it is possibly not as dodgy as
it
seems at first glance.

There's a few allegations of misconduct flying around there. I hope
you can substantiate them, otherwise withdraw them.

I notice that in your reply you didn't answer the question of who has
asked you to produce heat loss calculations, and in particular said
that you have to use an acccredited energy assessor. Has this
suggestion come directly from the Local Authority Building Control in
direct response to your submission of a Full Plans application?

It's not the case that if openings 25% floor area then calculations.
Most BCOs will take a reasoned judgement on the areas of openings.
Calculations need to be checked by the BCO on the principle of garbage
in = garbage out, so they need to have some knowledgable in how to
draw up emissions ratings (and how to fiddle them).

In terms of learning the calculations, if you can multiply, add and
work out percentages, then you can do the most basic first part which
is to check the heat loss against a notional building. If it fails
this first test, then, yes, you may need to take into account the
solar gain, etc.

If your BCO is asking for them as part of his plan check then offering
to do them for you at a price, report him to his boss. That is a
sackable offence.


You seem to be reading an awful lot into a few comments.
Nothing stated is untrue to my knowledge, nor have I sugested that there is
any misconduct.

BCO has stated that SAP calculations are required.
The online SAP sites suggest the 25% glazing guideline.

http://www.epsgroup.co.uk/our-servic...extension-sap/

"SAP Calculations are an extremely useful method of demonstrating compliance
with Part L1B of Building Regulations via the Design Flexibility criterion.

This method is often used for extensions with high levels of glazing which
is deemed as being excessive by Building Control (more than 25% of the
extended floor area) or in cases where homeowners wish to have a
conservatory or sun room open to their existing property."

http://www.sapeasy.co.uk/#extensions

"
Extensions

If you build an extension where the glazing is over 25% of the floor area,
then we can undertake a SAP assessment to demonstrate Part L compliance"

So given that the extension goes out 3 metres and the bifolds go up abot 2.4
metres and are across most of the rear (plus of course the three roof lights
in the vaulted roof) it seems likely that SAP calculations would be
required.
With me so far, or is this totally wrong?
The SAP calculations were requested by the BCO at the time the plans were
submitted for Building Regs approval.
Our architect had previously stated that SAP calculations would probably be
required.

People we have spoken to, including our architect, suggest that to offer a
commercial service providing SAP calculations one has to be certified - we
know of one person who can't offer the service because here certification
hasa recently lapsed.

Our architect mentioned that the person who was coincidentally our BCO was
also certified to provide SAP calculations, and he approached him to see if
he could do this for us.
So happens that he is on holiday.

As I commented humourously (do you have a sense of humour?) at first sight
this could seem a bit dodgy but I see no conflict of interest and neither
has anyone else involved.

Why should I do the calculations if I can employ someone else?
It is my judgement how best to spend my time and money - when to do
something myself and when to employ someone else.

If of course you feel that any of my statements are legally actionable by
all means take this further.

If not, can you just try to be helpful?
Please?

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Default] On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:06:51 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

People we have spoken to, including our architect, suggest that to offer a
commercial service providing SAP calculations one has to be certified - we
know of one person who can't offer the service because here certification
hasa recently lapsed.

If one is producing an Energy Performance Certificate in connection
with a house sale, etc., then the person has to be accredited. To
produce calculations to check whether your proposed extension
complies, no formal registration or qualifications is necessary.

Our architect mentioned that the person who was coincidentally our BCO was
also certified to provide SAP calculations, and he approached him to see if
he could do this for us.
So happens that he is on holiday.

In the early days of SAP ratings (IIRC 1995 or thereabouts), I and a
few colleagues went through the formal training; ostensibly to make
sure we knew what we were looking at when we received SAP calcs. Due
to restrictions on what work Local Government could do, Building
Control wasn't allowed to carry out SAP ratings when they were legally
required. As an individual, providing SAP calculations for a job I'm
checking is tantamount to drawing up plans; a sackable offence.

LABC Consult (the private company owned by all local authorities) does
offer SAP calcs, maybe using some LA directly-employed BCOs, but the
BCO checking your plans sees none of the fees from that (except in so
far as it helps to maintain the LA share of the BC work out there).

As I commented humourously (do you have a sense of humour?) at first sight
this could seem a bit dodgy but I see no conflict of interest and neither
has anyone else involved.

The smiley wasn't evident, and I'm not amused by the almost accepted
assumption that Local Government Officers are on the take.

If not, can you just try to be helpful?

Shant!
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
[Default] On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:06:51 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:
snip
In the early days of SAP ratings (IIRC 1995 or thereabouts), I and a
few colleagues went through the formal training; ostensibly to make
sure we knew what we were looking at when we received SAP calcs. Due
to restrictions on what work Local Government could do, Building
Control wasn't allowed to carry out SAP ratings when they were legally
required. As an individual, providing SAP calculations for a job I'm
checking is tantamount to drawing up plans; a sackable offence.

So the BCO would be commiting a sackable offence if he took on the work.

LABC Consult (the private company owned by all local authorities) does
offer SAP calcs, maybe using some LA directly-employed BCOs, but the
BCO checking your plans sees none of the fees from that (except in so
far as it helps to maintain the LA share of the BC work out there).


Oh, hang on, then the BCO would NOT be commiting a sackable offence?
Make your mind up!

As I commented humourously (do you have a sense of humour?) at first sight
this could seem a bit dodgy but I see no conflict of interest and neither
has anyone else involved.

The smiley wasn't evident, and I'm not amused by the almost accepted
assumption that Local Government Officers are on the take.

To me, at least, you are giving a strong impression of the guilty fleeing
where no man persueth.
What, particularly, has made you so very sensitive to this?
Personal experience of local government corruption?

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Default] On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:13:28 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

So the BCO would be commiting a sackable offence if he took on the work.

Oh, hang on, then the BCO would NOT be commiting a sackable offence?
Make your mind up!

I have, and I have explained. A private individual employed by the LA
can't; a limited company can.

What, particularly, has made you so very sensitive to this?
Personal experience of local government corruption?

Personal experience of a great many people posting on usenet of local
govt corruption without evidence.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

"Hugo Nebula" wrote in message
...
[Default] On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:13:28 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
"David WE Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

So the BCO would be commiting a sackable offence if he took on the work.

Oh, hang on, then the BCO would NOT be commiting a sackable offence?
Make your mind up!

I have, and I have explained. A private individual employed by the LA
can't; a limited company can.

What, particularly, has made you so very sensitive to this?
Personal experience of local government corruption?

Personal experience of a great many people posting on usenet of local
govt corruption without evidence.


Just to be clear, I have not posted about local government corruption.
Despite your rather extreme initial reaction.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")