I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic
strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no
more than 400mm deep.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Brick plinth:
A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be
laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a
DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler
way? Strap ties?

Framework:

Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

Rafters 100mm x 50mm

Ridge 150mm x 50mm

Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm

Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm

Cladding:

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 14/08/2012 12:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

What *was* it going to be?

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

Mostly.... you seem to be replying on the gable walls and the partition
to hold the ridge up and in turn that to prevent any splaying forces
that would tend to push the side walls apart.

I would be tempted to stick some cross bracing in to resist that force.
Does not need to be at wall top level - they could go half way up the
rafters. Also not on every rafter - but say on 4 sets in total along the
length. (also gives you a convenient place to mount strip lights.

Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic
strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no
more than 400mm deep.

A bit of rebar ought to ensure that if it moves it does so mostly as a
unit...

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Threshold strip perhaps to stop driving rain filling it up...

Brick plinth:
A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be
laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a
DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler
way? Strap ties?

Yup two or three bat straps on each wall will be fine, and easier to fix.

Framework:

Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

PAR or CLS? The latter seems to be quite commonly available in the
places that used to do traditional sawn. (its somewhere between sawn and
PAR - light planed with the corners knocked off - but not as undersized
as real PAR)

Rafters 100mm x 50mm

Ridge 150mm x 50mm

Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm

Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm

Cladding:

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather edge might be a bit cheaper...

No soffit by the looks of it - so wind will blow under the eves and into
the shed.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

One comment would be that I can't see anything to stop the roof
spreading, although the weight of it might not be enough to
worry about this on a shed. Normally, the ceiling joists in tension
do this, or some higher up horizontal bracing joists between opposite
rafters (don't know the proper name for them).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

John Rumm wrote:
On 14/08/2012 12:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

What *was* it going to be?

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

Mostly.... you seem to be replying on the gable walls and the partition
to hold the ridge up and in turn that to prevent any splaying forces
that would tend to push the side walls apart.

I would be tempted to stick some cross bracing in to resist that force.
Does not need to be at wall top level - they could go half way up the
rafters. Also not on every rafter - but say on 4 sets in total along the
length. (also gives you a convenient place to mount strip lights.


Yes SWMBO decided she wanted things to hang things from, so a cross beam
every other rafter looks OK.


Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic
strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no
more than 400mm deep.

A bit of rebar ought to ensure that if it moves it does so mostly as a
unit...

I hopes so. Steel is cheaper than massive extra concrete.

I built a retaining wall for a haha. Stupidly I did'n't tie the corner
pillars into the wall - the wall is FULL of 'bow ties' and is more or
less fine with one crack, but te pillars have moved away from the rest
of the structure.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Threshold strip perhaps to stop driving rain filling it up...

I'll slope it sop it runs out..

Brick plinth:
A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be
laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a
DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler
way? Strap ties?

Yup two or three bat straps on each wall will be fine, and easier to fix.


OK I'll run with that.

Framework:

Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

PAR or CLS? The latter seems to be quite commonly available in the
places that used to do traditional sawn. (its somewhere between sawn and
PAR - light planed with the corners knocked off - but not as undersized
as real PAR)

yerrs. I can get that too. I honestly don't care. I'll see what the BM
says is cheapest.


Rafters 100mm x 50mm

Ridge 150mm x 50mm

Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm

Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm

Cladding:

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather edge might be a bit cheaper...

Really? The whole thing looks bloody expensive to me.


No soffit by the looks of it - so wind will blow under the eves and into
the shed.


Correct. Also bats and birds will nest. I'm fine with that. Its really
to keep the rain off the stuff, not to be warm or heatproof. No sarking
either.




Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).



And thanks for the comments. You have confirmed three things that were
niggling me


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

One comment would be that I can't see anything to stop the roof
spreading, although the weight of it might not be enough to
worry about this on a shed. Normally, the ceiling joists in tension
do this, or some higher up horizontal bracing joists between opposite
rafters (don't know the proper name for them).

Yes. I'll add those - after all its only a but of 2x4 and some nails

Most felted sheds don't bother, but this is tiled.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

... or some higher up horizontal bracing joists between opposite rafters
(don't know the proper name for them).

trusses?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

On 14/08/2012 15:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I would be tempted to stick some cross bracing in to resist that
force. Does not need to be at wall top level - they could go half way
up the rafters. Also not on every rafter - but say on 4 sets in total
along the length. (also gives you a convenient place to mount strip
lights.

Yes SWMBO decided she wanted things to hang things from, so a cross beam
every other rafter looks OK.



A bit of rebar ought to ensure that if it moves it does so mostly as a
unit...

I hopes so. Steel is cheaper than massive extra concrete.

Indeed, and unless you pin it on piles then you are not going to win
against trees.

I built a retaining wall for a haha. Stupidly I did'n't tie the corner
pillars into the wall - the wall is FULL of 'bow ties' and is more or
less fine with one crack, but te pillars have moved away from the rest
of the structure.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Threshold strip perhaps to stop driving rain filling it up...

I'll slope it sop it runs out..


That will do it ;-)

PAR or CLS? The latter seems to be quite commonly available in the
places that used to do traditional sawn. (its somewhere between sawn
and PAR - light planed with the corners knocked off - but not as
undersized as real PAR)

yerrs. I can get that too. I honestly don't care. I'll see what the BM
says is cheapest.

CLS is usually quite a bit cheaper (the wood mills make it out of
slightly more wafty stock in the first place)

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather edge might be a bit cheaper...

Really? The whole thing looks bloody expensive to me.

They are 'kin expensive when you use real materials to build them (hence
why all the commercial ones are only a small step up from cardboard!)

There is not much in it, but the feather edge profile is usually
slightly cheaper than shiplap or loglap.

No soffit by the looks of it - so wind will blow under the eves and
into the shed.


Correct. Also bats and birds will nest. I'm fine with that. Its really
to keep the rain off the stuff, not to be warm or heatproof. No sarking
either.

Should save needing to worry about rot too much then.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).



And thanks for the comments. You have confirmed three things that were
niggling me

No problem...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

... or some higher up horizontal bracing joists between opposite rafters
(don't know the proper name for them).

trusses?

Ooh-er missus!


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

John Rumm wrote:
On 14/08/2012 15:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I would be tempted to stick some cross bracing in to resist that
force. Does not need to be at wall top level - they could go half way
up the rafters. Also not on every rafter - but say on 4 sets in total
along the length. (also gives you a convenient place to mount strip
lights.

Yes SWMBO decided she wanted things to hang things from, so a cross beam
every other rafter looks OK.



A bit of rebar ought to ensure that if it moves it does so mostly as a
unit...

I hopes so. Steel is cheaper than massive extra concrete.

Indeed, and unless you pin it on piles then you are not going to win
against trees.


Oh you can win by going deep. I've tgot 2.5m foundations near the
ash.... tree...
I built a retaining wall for a haha. Stupidly I did'n't tie the corner
pillars into the wall - the wall is FULL of 'bow ties' and is more or
less fine with one crack, but te pillars have moved away from the rest
of the structure.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with
cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Threshold strip perhaps to stop driving rain filling it up...

I'll slope it sop it runs out..


That will do it ;-)

PAR or CLS? The latter seems to be quite commonly available in the
places that used to do traditional sawn. (its somewhere between sawn
and PAR - light planed with the corners knocked off - but not as
undersized as real PAR)

yerrs. I can get that too. I honestly don't care. I'll see what the BM
says is cheapest.

CLS is usually quite a bit cheaper (the wood mills make it out of
slightly more wafty stock in the first place)

Oh, Thats good then.

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather edge might be a bit cheaper...

Really? The whole thing looks bloody expensive to me.

They are 'kin expensive when you use real materials to build them (hence
why all the commercial ones are only a small step up from cardboard!)

There is not much in it, but the feather edge profile is usually
slightly cheaper than shiplap or loglap.

No soffit by the looks of it - so wind will blow under the eves and
into the shed.


Correct. Also bats and birds will nest. I'm fine with that. Its really
to keep the rain off the stuff, not to be warm or heatproof. No sarking
either.

Should save needing to worry about rot too much then.


yeah the existing one has had so many felt failures its completely gone,.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).



And thanks for the comments. You have confirmed three things that were
niggling me

No problem...




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Aug 14, 12:52*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m *and 4.2m tall.

Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. *I will probably use very basic
strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no
more than 400mm deep.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on *sand and *maybe a bit of mortar.

NT wrote:
On Aug 14, 12:52 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic
strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no
more than 400mm deep.

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for
mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as
chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.
No attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Brick plinth:
A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be
laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a
DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler
way? Strap ties?

Framework:

Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

Rafters 100mm x 50mm

Ridge 150mm x 50mm

Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm

Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm

Cladding:

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).

Just one thing I'd change: I'd mostly stop the damp coming up from the
ground. You'll get less condensation then, and less tool rusting.
Bitumen painting the slab undersides & sides is easy, ditto sand &
cement brushed into the gaps. or better bitumen & sand.


T'would be simple enough to put a membrane down then

Oddly enough the garage has no DPM or anything and its fine - it seems
that all you need to do to keep a space dry is keep the rain off and
protect it from dew with a roof.


NT


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 14/08/2012 12:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

4 m overall height requires planning permission.

[...] PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

For the sort of quantities you're going to need Ridgeons would probably
supply traditional sawn carcassing to order.

Rafters 100mm x 50mm
Ridge 150mm x 50mm

No 50 mm carcassing timber any more, it's all ex 47 mm these days,
giving around 44 mm finished thickness on the machined kiln-dried stuff.
CLS is even thinner I think.

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather-edge 'barn cladding' might look better (IMHO).

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
On 14/08/2012 12:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

4 m overall height requires planning permission.

[...] PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

For the sort of quantities you're going to need Ridgeons would probably
supply traditional sawn carcassing to order.

Rafters 100mm x 50mm
Ridge 150mm x 50mm

No 50 mm carcassing timber any more, it's all ex 47 mm these days,
giving around 44 mm finished thickness on the machined kiln-dried stuff.
CLS is even thinner I think.


well that's what ridgeons catalogue says. for PAR anyway.

Not that I greatly care. Wood is always +- 40% on strength depending on
what tree and what part of what tree it was hacked out of.



Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather-edge 'barn cladding' might look better (IMHO).


Not sure. I like everything here to 'look native' as far as possible, or
at least not stand out as radically different.

Shiplap is a bit easier to use and presents a flat surface for hinge
mountings at least.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Owain wrote:
On Aug 14, 12:52 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light
of its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Does it make a difference from the plants' point of view which end of
the building the potting shed bit is, i.e. daylight/heat etc? As
potting shed end more likely to be using water, I would put the water
butts that end.


Tlak to SWMBO not me.

That glazing is North Eats but the south west end is under several trees.

I pointed it all out but thats the way she wants it.


Apparently I have to lay a permanent hose extension 100meters down the
garden anyway. MDPE? I hope there is some MDPE to hoselock via a pipe
type kit around.


Owain



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy Wade
writes
On 14/08/2012 12:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

4 m overall height requires planning permission.

[...] PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

For the sort of quantities you're going to need Ridgeons would
probably supply traditional sawn carcassing to order.

Try Clarkes of Walsham. I bought some very nice real 4"x2" there
recently. Invoiced as *paddock fencing rails pressure treated green 4.8m
x47mm x100mm* £6.32/length.

Rafters 100mm x 50mm
Ridge 150mm x 50mm

No 50 mm carcassing timber any more, it's all ex 47 mm these days,
giving around 44 mm finished thickness on the machined kiln-dried
stuff. CLS is even thinner I think.

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Feather-edge 'barn cladding' might look better (IMHO).

+1. Go for brown pressure treated sawn from a 175 mm board. Gives 150mm
cover. Don't use creosote. It'll make her eyes smart for weeks.

One of its best features.


If you
intend to finish with Sadolin etc. paint the boards before fitting
otherwise you will get stripes when they shrink. Chose which way round
to fit the boards and stick to it. Harry says smooth (original board
finish) side out; some theory about warping. I use the diagonal cut
*out* as it gives a better rain drip and I prefer the rougher finish.
The downside is that cobwebs stick like....

yeah..

Tie beams have been covered by others but you might also consider
stiffer timber for the door hanging posts and at least 4"x2" for the
wall plate.


Nah/ If I go to 4x2 I have to go for that everywhere. Its only a shed..


Ride on mowers are legal tender with our travellers so you might
concrete in an anchor for a securing chain.


THAT is a good idea

regards




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On the subject of roofs, can somebody with the appropriate knowledge
update the Wiki entry on roof construction:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...f_construction

It shows timber roofs with the attic floor joists running front-to-
back so they form the trusses preventing spreading. All the houses
I have experience of are terraced houses where the attic floor
joists run side-to-side. What stops the spreading? Whenever I've
been in the crawl space and in a position to look it just looks
like the rafters are butt-nailed onto a wall plate on the top of
the masonry wall.

Yes, there's the rafters holding the attic ceiling halway up the
roof rafters, but instinctively they don't appear strong enough
to do anything other than hold the ceiling up.

JGH

In message ,
writes
On the subject of roofs, can somebody with the appropriate knowledge
update the Wiki entry on roof construction:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...f_construction

It shows timber roofs with the attic floor joists running front-to-
back so they form the trusses preventing spreading. All the houses
I have experience of are terraced houses where the attic floor
joists run side-to-side. What stops the spreading? Whenever I've
been in the crawl space and in a position to look it just looks
like the rafters are butt-nailed onto a wall plate on the top of
the masonry wall.

Yes, there's the rafters holding the attic ceiling halway up the
roof rafters, but instinctively they don't appear strong enough
to do anything other than hold the ceiling up.

Exactly what I said to the builder who remodelled our house. The
architect had used *raised tie* construction in a single storey wing
butting up to an existing Victorian timber barn.

No loading was permitted on the barn wall and I said he should fit an
additional tie at eaves level. The argument developed to the point where
he claimed superior knowledge; having qualifications in structural
engineering.

15 years later when he came back to quote on some alterations I was able
to show that ridge had settled and the rafters had pushed out the
supporting pillar making the garage door hard to close.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

wrote:
On the subject of roofs, can somebody with the appropriate knowledge
update the Wiki entry on roof construction:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...f_construction

It shows timber roofs with the attic floor joists running front-to-
back so they form the trusses preventing spreading. All the houses
I have experience of are terraced houses where the attic floor
joists run side-to-side. What stops the spreading? Whenever I've
been in the crawl space and in a position to look it just looks
like the rafters are butt-nailed onto a wall plate on the top of
the masonry wall.


well that can work up to a point. The narrowness of a terraced hose
means the roof loading isn't as high and that reduces the lateral forces
to the point where presumably the walls alone are heavy enough not to
bulge or topple.

I am surprised though.It seems little gain and a high potential loss in
doing it that way - you need the ceiling joists anyway - why not nail em
to the rafters ?



Yes, there's the rafters holding the attic ceiling halway up the
roof rafters, but instinctively they don't appear strong enough
to do anything other than hold the ceiling up.


Ah. You didn't mention THAT. Well in fact they only work in tension
there so they have more than enough strength. Its resistance to bending
and compression where wood is weakest.

If the rafters had infinite stiffness those alone would be enough to
stop the spreading.

As it is the spreading forces will now be generated by rafter bending
the triangular top bit is stable enough - so its the splaying of the
'feet' outwards that will be an issue.

I have that arrangement here, in the sense that my attic is storage only
and the wall plate is a only meter above second floor level

the 'ceiling joists' are BOLTED to the rafters and they and the rafters
and are substantial. But the structural engineers were happy enough.


JGH


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:52:10 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating

(it was very cheap)



After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she

had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it

was as per usual, the following has been sketched up



http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design



I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light

of its purpose and see if it will stay up.



Size:

5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.



Soil and foundations:

Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic

strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no

more than 400mm deep.



Paving:



In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for

mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as

chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.

No attempt will be made to damp proof this.



Brick plinth:

A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be

laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a

DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler

way? Strap ties?



Framework:



Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)



Rafters 100mm x 50mm



Ridge 150mm x 50mm



Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm



Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm



Cladding:



Shiplap laid horizontally.



Tiling:

Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2

tonnes is about the finished weight.



Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm



Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).





--

Ineptocracy



(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to

lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the

members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are

rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a

diminishing number of producers.

I'd be inclined to put a bit of diagonal bracing in the roof at each end. Just a 45 degree lath running from the wall plate to the top of the truss. Triangulation is your friend in this type of construction. It will help to relieve stress from wind force which is a main consideration in any roof. I've built a couple of sheds with either wood or corrugated steel panel construction and always like to brace both vertical and roof surfaces.

fred wrote:


I'd be inclined to put a bit of diagonal bracing in the roof at each
end. Just a 45 degree lath running from the wall plate to the top of
the truss. Triangulation is your friend in this type of construction.
It will help to relieve stress from wind force which is a main
consideration in any roof. I've built a couple of sheds with either
wood or corrugated steel panel construction and always like to brace
both vertical and roof surfaces.

Mm. I expect there will be a fair bit of stuff left over at the end of
the framing to add diagonals with.

The whole frame depends on the cladding for stability if I don't
diagonal a wall or two. We had a 'wendy house', thing as a kid and we
demolished it by removing the cladding and then we pushed..and the roof
ended up on the ground ;-)


And I might want to diagonal across at ceiling level to to prevent
parallelogramming. in the lateral plane.

Also pondering making the gable ends and the partition wall over one
another on the ground and then hefting them up before infilling the
front and back and roof.

In fact could do the whole thing that way apart from roof ..


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating
(it was very cheap)

After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she
had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it
was as per usual, the following has been sketched up

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design

I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light of
its purpose and see if it will stay up.

Size:
5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.

Soil and foundations:
Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic strip
foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no more than
400mm deep.


no need for rebar, and I've built masonry constructions on 100mm deep X
300mm wide concrete which are still standing 20 years on

Paving:

In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for mowers
and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as chips
concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar. No
attempt will be made to damp proof this.

Brick plinth:
A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be laid
as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a DPC
laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler way?
Strap ties?

Bolts set in mortar on one course of brick won't hold anything. Use threaded
bar, bent at the bottom and set into the concrete strip footings, cut bricks
where they meet the studs and then drill the bottom timber of your frame,
bolt down then work off this


Framework:

Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)

Weight of roof will ******** these walls in short time.
I'd be tempted to use 100X50's at each corner and every 1.5m in place of a
75x50

Rafters 100mm x 50mm

Ridge 150mm x 50mm

Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm

Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm

Cladding:

Shiplap laid horizontally.

Tiling:
Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2
tonnes is about the finished weight.

Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm

Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).


Opposing wallplates will need to be tied to each other to prevent spread
from the roof, also some uprights from these to the ridge board.
http://tinypic.com/r/w7kg0l/6

I'd be tempted to order trusses for these as they are extremely strong, come
ready made and aren't much dearer than DIY.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:

I'd be inclined to put a bit of diagonal bracing in the roof at each
end. Just a 45 degree lath running from the wall plate to the top of
the truss. Triangulation is your friend in this type of construction.
It will help to relieve stress from wind force which is a main
consideration in any roof. I've built a couple of sheds with either
wood or corrugated steel panel construction and always like to brace
both vertical and roof surfaces.

Mm. I expect there will be a fair bit of stuff left over at the end of
the framing to add diagonals with.

The whole frame depends on the cladding for stability if I don't
diagonal a wall or two. We had a 'wendy house', thing as a kid and we
demolished it by removing the cladding and then we pushed..and the roof
ended up on the ground ;-)


And I might want to diagonal across at ceiling level to to prevent
parallelogramming. in the lateral plane.

Also pondering making the gable ends and the partition wall over one
another on the ground and then hefting them up before infilling the
front and back and roof.

In fact could do the whole thing that way apart from roof ..

Yes.

If you do clad last... the method I use...

As with any overlapping finish the first board needs a trim strip nailed
up to bring the bottom edge out to match the rest. With a brick sub wall
you will need to arrange this to coincide with the wall edge.

With the first board fitted I use a gauge (sheet steel 150mm x 75mm with
a 10mm 90 deg. fold) to measure up and tap in nails every 2 or 3
uprights to support the next board. I use 4.2m lengths so this is
essential when working from a ladder.

Stagger any joins. Nail up the next board and re-fix the gauge nails as
you go....

regards



--
Tim Lamb

On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:57:08 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
fred wrote:





I'd be inclined to put a bit of diagonal bracing in the roof at each

end. Just a 45 degree lath running from the wall plate to the top of

the truss. Triangulation is your friend in this type of construction.

It will help to relieve stress from wind force which is a main

consideration in any roof. I've built a couple of sheds with either

wood or corrugated steel panel construction and always like to brace

both vertical and roof surfaces.



Mm. I expect there will be a fair bit of stuff left over at the end of

the framing to add diagonals with.



The whole frame depends on the cladding for stability if I don't

diagonal a wall or two. We had a 'wendy house', thing as a kid and we

demolished it by removing the cladding and then we pushed..and the roof

ended up on the ground ;-)





And I might want to diagonal across at ceiling level to to prevent

parallelogramming. in the lateral plane.



Also pondering making the gable ends and the partition wall over one

another on the ground and then hefting them up before infilling the

front and back and roof.



In fact could do the whole thing that way apart from roof ..





--

Ineptocracy



(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to

lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the

members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are

rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a

diminishing number of producers.

Last shed I built I just poured the concrete slab. Made up the four sides. Erected them and made them secure (bolted together and drilled and bolted to the concrete slab. Then erected the two gable trusses, ran the ridge board between them and set and nailed the rafters. I tied the rafters about 300mm down from the ridge after. Diagonal bracing in all four corners. Clad with corrugated steel which was probably the strongest element in the whole lot.

But then it was only about 8ft x 12ft on plan.

I don't bother with windows but insert clear panels in the roof. More secure and if the scrotes can't see in it won't arouse there cupidity

fred wrote:
Last shed I built I just poured the concrete slab. Made up the four
sides. Erected them and made them secure (bolted together and drilled
and bolted to the concrete slab. Then erected the two gable trusses, ran
the ridge board between them and set and nailed the rafters. I tied the
rafters about 300mm down from the ridge after. Diagonal bracing in all
four corners. Clad with corrugated steel which was probably the
strongest element in the whole lot.


But then it was only about 8ft x 12ft on plan.

I don't bother with windows but insert clear panels in the roof. More
secure and if the scrotes can't see in it won't arouse there cupidity

Good points. What's the cost of slabbing versus using slabs? as it were..


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:59:08 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:

Use threaded
bar, bent at the bottom and set into the concrete strip footings

I may get around to building a shed, so this thread has been very
useful for me too.

Do you bend the threaded bar into an L shape? How big is the foot of
the L: a couple of inches?

What diameter do you use: M8, M10, M12?

TIA

Fred wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:59:08 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:

Use threaded
bar, bent at the bottom and set into the concrete strip footings

I may get around to building a shed, so this thread has been very
useful for me too.

Do you bend the threaded bar into an L shape? How big is the foot of
the L: a couple of inches?

What diameter do you use: M8, M10, M12?

whatever you can get hold of - it's only holding down timbers so it doesn't
need to be anything major.
You can bend it into an L shape or hook it like a tent peg, anything so that
it won't spin when tightening the nuts

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:52:10 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I need a new shed, the old one is after 18 years disintegrating

(it was very cheap)



After the usual flaming row with SWMBO who has retracted everything she

had agreed to and changed her mind denying it was the way she agreed it

was as per usual, the following has been sketched up



http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?a...0Shed%20design



I would humbly beg the assembled multitudes to examine it in the light

of its purpose and see if it will stay up.



Size:

5m x 3m and 4.2m tall.



Soil and foundations:

Heavy clay, and surrounded by trees. I will probably use very basic

strip foundations and use concrete with a few rebars to form these no

more than 400mm deep.



Paving:



In order to allow the hedge trimmer around and obviate the need for

mowers and strimmers the area will be paved inside and out with cheap as

chips concrete paving slaps bedded on sand and maybe a bit of mortar.

No attempt will be made to damp proof this.



Brick plinth:

A single course of (good hard) brick thoroughly tied together will be

laid as shown. Bolts head down will be embedded in the final later and a

DPC laid over and the frame bolted to this - unless there is a simpler

way? Strap ties?



Framework:



Main construction 75mm x 50mm PAR (cant get rough lumber any more hardly)



Rafters 100mm x 50mm



Ridge 150mm x 50mm



Gutter boards 150mm x 25mm



Bargeboards 100mm x 25mm



Cladding:



Shiplap laid horizontally.



Tiling:

Clay pantiles on suitable battens (not shown) Looks like 1000 tiles/2

tonnes is about the finished weight.



Doors: same shiplap vertically on ledge and brace frame of 100mm x 50mm



Finish: Creosote (yes its still available in 5-10 gallon qtys).





--

Ineptocracy



(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to

lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the

members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are

rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a

diminishing number of producers.

This might be useful though I think he is using massive timber sections. Its interesting all the same

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...roduction.aspx