So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

Printing presses, of course. Or the press of a keypad.

En el artÃ*culo
groups.com, harry escribió:

So the have found ‚¬100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?

Nah, it's all funny money. Akin to taking out yet another credit card
to pay the debts owing on the ones you've maxed out.

One thing I have learnt is that you never, ever take out debt to pay
debt. That's why Europe is ****ed. They're just borrowing more money
to pay off existing debt, and not paying down the capital at all.

My 2p: If you have investments in Euros, get them out now, even if you
take a loss. Put your money into property. The Euro is going to fail,
and it'll drag the pound down with it. Greece will revert to the
drachma, Spain to the peseta, etc. with a massive devaluation. The
pound will not be immune either.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
My 2p: If you have investments in Euros, get them out now, even if you
take a loss. Put your money into property.

Yup. Some real bargains in Spain at the moment. Ah - wait. That's what
their banks did...

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

Yup. Some real bargains in Spain at the moment. Ah - wait. That's what
their banks did...

And now they're desperate to get shut of them. The market is still
dropping like a stone. Which means there are some real bargains to be
had.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

Yup. Some real bargains in Spain at the moment. Ah - wait. That's what
their banks did...

And now they're desperate to get shut of them. The market is still
dropping like a stone. Which means there are some real bargains to be
had.

They'd only be bargains if you buy at the bottom of the market. And no one
knows what/when this will be.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

They'd only be bargains if you buy at the bottom of the market. And no one
knows what/when this will be.

I think we're quite some way from that yet. If (when) there's a Spexit
(Spain exits the euro and reverts to the peseta) there will be a massive
devaluation, and that'll be the time to buy.

The euphoria of the latest 100 billion euro bailout (with us, our
taxpayer's, money) has worn off as the Spanish realise it's just another
loan to repay existing debt and it's going to need even more austerity
and a long, long time to pay off.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

harry wrote:
So the have found ‚¬100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?
It doesn't exist. Its a promise to pay them if anyone decided top pull
all their money out of Bankia. Since that wont cause the bank to crash,
no one will.

Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone believes
in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face up to the real
situation.

... meanwhile ****s who put solar panels on their rooves can rip off
their poor neighbours..


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

JGH

jgharston writes:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

All money is fiat money.
In living memory, gold was 'worth' $35 per ounce.
Today, about $1000 per ounce.

Like everything else, it's worth whatever people think it's worth.

If another extinction event destroyed most life on earth, gold would be
useless.
Food would be the only thing that mattered, and few would want to sell
priceless food in exchange for inedible gold.

--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

"Windmill" wrote in message
...
jgharston writes:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

All money is fiat money.
In living memory, gold was 'worth' $35 per ounce.
Today, about $1000 per ounce.

Like everything else, it's worth whatever people think it's worth.

If another extinction event destroyed most life on earth, gold would be
useless.
Food would be the only thing that mattered, and few would want to sell
priceless food in exchange for inedible gold.

I'm surprised the greens haven't jumped on gold mining yet.
They expend loads of energy (CO2), dump loads of cyanides, etc., rip up
forests, etc. to get it and then waste even more energy putting it in man
made holes with guards.
Pretty stupid really.
The same goes for diamonds, but they are more useful.

dennis@home wrote:


"Windmill" wrote in message
...
jgharston writes:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

All money is fiat money.
In living memory, gold was 'worth' $35 per ounce.
Today, about $1000 per ounce.

Like everything else, it's worth whatever people think it's worth.

If another extinction event destroyed most life on earth, gold would be
useless.
Food would be the only thing that mattered, and few would want to sell
priceless food in exchange for inedible gold.

I'm surprised the greens haven't jumped on gold mining yet.
They expend loads of energy (CO2),

No they don't.

dump loads of cyanides, etc., rip up
forests, etc. to get it

No they dont.

and then waste even more energy putting it in
man made holes with guards.

IO dont think they do.

Pretty stupid really.

Yes, you are.

The same goes for diamonds, but they are more useful.

No, it doesn't, and they are in fact less useful.

Gold and diamonds (and other stony type minerals) are fairly unique in
that in both cases what you want is what you dig up. No smelting is
involved. So no chemicals are involved either and no energy is need to
reduce the oxides to metals.

You are living up to your reputation that anything you say is the
complete opposite of the truth.

That's a rare skill. Have you considered joining the Labour party?



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Jun 19, 11:45*am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Windmill" wrote in message

...





jgharston writes:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

All money is fiat money.
In living memory, gold was 'worth' $35 per ounce.
Today, about $1000 per ounce.

Like everything else, it's worth whatever people think it's worth.

If another extinction event destroyed most life on earth, gold would be
useless.
Food would be the only thing that mattered, and few would want to sell
priceless food in exchange for inedible gold.

I'm surprised the greens haven't jumped on gold mining yet.
They expend loads of energy (CO2), dump loads of cyanides, etc., rip up
forests, etc. to get it and then waste even more energy putting it in man
made holes with guards.
Pretty stupid really.
The same goes for diamonds, but they are more useful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mercury they dump, not cyanide.

"dennis@home" writes:



"Windmill" wrote in message
...
jgharston writes:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its like renewable energy: Its not real but as long as everyone
believes in it, no one needs to do anything drastic like face
up to the real situation.

Come on children, say "I believe in fiat money".

All money is fiat money.
In living memory, gold was 'worth' $35 per ounce.
Today, about $1000 per ounce.

Like everything else, it's worth whatever people think it's worth.

If another extinction event destroyed most life on earth, gold would be
useless.
Food would be the only thing that mattered, and few would want to sell
priceless food in exchange for inedible gold.

I'm surprised the greens haven't jumped on gold mining yet.

They too may find it difficult to ignore the glitter.....

They expend loads of energy (CO2), dump loads of cyanides, etc., rip up
forests, etc. to get it and then waste even more energy putting it in man
made holes with guards.
Pretty stupid really.
The same goes for diamonds, but they are more useful.

During an earlier spike in gold prices, electronic gadgets became
unreliable because in low current applications you need gold for
circuit board contacts, microswitches, etc. etc., and although the
plating was usually very thin, only tens of microns, the bean counters
got excited about the 'waste'.



--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

In article c446076f-d2d7-4d5c-9341-e6c7ef601ff1
@fr28g2000vbb.googlegroups.com, says...

So the have found ¤100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

Blackboard seen at a stall selling olive oil and olives last week:

Help save the German economy:
Buy Greek products!

--

Terry

harry wrote

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?

Your pockets, and those of every other EU sucker, you watch.

Taxpayers in Deutschland?

Their pockets aint that deep.

In spades once the rest have to be bailed out too.

Don't be daft, none of it exists at all, its just a devaluation which
leaves a lot of bits of paper worth less each time. The whole point here is
that you cannot have a monetary union, when the countries concerned have
such different economies. This was predicted years ago, but they just went
ahead and fudged it by pretending they were all the same. Sooner or later,
like water, the lowest common denominator prevails, ie all the liquid runs
to the lowest part of the terrain.
You have to make stuff others want to buy to create wealth, you need a
tighthand on taxation and wages in all countries to make it work. Its a
bloody mess, what can one say?

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"harry" wrote in message
...
So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

Brian Gaff wrote
harry wrote

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

Don't be daft, none of it exists at all, its just a devaluation which
leaves a lot of bits of paper worth less each time.

Its MUCH more complicated than that.

The whole point here is that you cannot have a monetary union, when the
countries concerned have such different economies.

Have fun explaining how the US which was much more different again did work.

And Britain in spades.

The real reason is because the eurozone doesn’t have a fiscal union.

This was predicted years ago, but they just went ahead and fudged it by
pretending they were all the same.

No they didn’t.

Sooner or later, like water, the lowest common denominator prevails, ie
all the liquid runs to the lowest part of the terrain.

Have fun explaining why it worked for the US.

You have to make stuff others want to buy to create wealth,

Its MUCH more complicated than that now and has been for a long time now.

you need a tighthand on taxation and wages in all countries to make it
work.

Have fun explaining how come the US didn’t and it worked fine there.

Britain in spades.

Its a bloody mess, what can one say?

You could try getting the basics right.

"harry" wrote in message
...
So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

China - we gave them all our money to pay for goods which we no longer make.
That's everything.

On 11/06/2012 18:59, harry wrote:
So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

IIUC - they'd have borrowed the money via EU and IMF-linked 'banks' -
state institution moderated funding houses. They in turn get their money
from nation states. Who in turn get their money either by borrowing
themselves (issuing long term bonds, for example, which are bought by
private companies, individuals and other countries), or lend straight
from revenue (countries like China).

Spain would have been given access to the money on near-crippling
interest rates. This makes default a real possibility - a situation
virtually unheard of until recently. I don't think Greece is in a
position of actual default. It's simply 'rescheduled' - but default is
likely sooner rather than later - especially after the elections.

I've not read the details of the 100B - but that's my guess

Rob

Rob reply@ng wrote
harry wrote

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

IIUC - they'd have borrowed the money via EU and IMF-
linked 'banks' - state institution moderated funding houses.

Nope, its mostly whats promised if its actually needed.

Just the promise alone may stop the run on the spanish banks.

They in turn get their money from nation states.

Few of them have any money.

Who in turn get their money either by borrowing themselves (issuing long
term bonds, for example, which are bought by private companies,
individuals and other countries),

Or they print it/hit a few keys on some keyboard.

or lend straight from revenue (countries like China).

They aint that stupid.

Spain would have been given access to the money on near- crippling
interest rates.

Not with that sort of money.

This makes default a real possibility - a situation virtually unheard of
until recently.

Its happened before in south america most obviously.

I don't think Greece is in a position of actual default.

It is anyway.

It's simply 'rescheduled'

Nope, the lenders got to 'take a haircut' which
is code for a default on part of what was owed.

- but default is likely sooner rather than later - especially after the
elections.

Time will tell. The voters do appear to be
pretty keen on staying in the eurozone.

Mad IMO, but I'm not a greek.

I've not read the details of the 100B - but that's my guess

On 12/06/2012 11:03, Rod Speed wrote:
Rob reply@ng wrote
harry wrote

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

IIUC - they'd have borrowed the money via EU and IMF-
linked 'banks' - state institution moderated funding houses.

Nope, its mostly whats promised if its actually needed.

Just the promise alone may stop the run on the spanish banks.

They in turn get their money from nation states.

Few of them have any money.


All of them have *access* to money. That's how countries work, and was
the main pretext for the Irish 'stay in' vote.

Who in turn get their money either by borrowing themselves (issuing
long term bonds, for example, which are bought by private companies,
individuals and other countries),

Or they print it/hit a few keys on some keyboard.


While they may hit keys, it's not quite that simple ;-)

or lend straight from revenue (countries like China).

They aint that stupid.


If they have stockpiles of cash, they'll generally put it somewhere.
China's been lending to countries for quite a while - although not
always via the usual suspects.


Spain would have been given access to the money on near- crippling
interest rates.

Not with that sort of money.


It's reported as a 'low to government cost loan' - I don't believe it.

This makes default a real possibility - a situation virtually unheard
of until recently.

Its happened before in south america most obviously.

I don't think Greece is in a position of actual default.

It is anyway.

It's simply 'rescheduled'

Nope, the lenders got to 'take a haircut' which
is code for a default on part of what was owed.


Yes - hence the inverted commas.

- but default is likely sooner rather than later - especially after
the elections.

Time will tell. The voters do appear to be
pretty keen on staying in the eurozone.

Mad IMO, but I'm not a greek.


I'd get the hell out and take my chances if I was in charge. Which
probably explains why I'm not ;-)

Rob

Rob reply@ng wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Rob reply@ng wrote
harry wrote

So the have found €100 billion for Spain.
Where does all this money come from?
Taxpayers in Deutschland?

IIUC - they'd have borrowed the money via EU and IMF-
linked 'banks' - state institution moderated funding houses.

Nope, its mostly whats promised if its actually needed.

Just the promise alone may stop the run on the spanish banks.

They in turn get their money from nation states.

Few of them have any money.

All of them have *access* to money.

Nope, many nation states in the EU are bankrupt.

That’s why the krauts are having to bail them out and
they havent got enough money to bail them all out.

And Cameron has said he aint into bailing anyone out.

That's how countries work,

That’s how SOME of them work. Plenty more just go
bust like Spain, Italy and Greece. And there are a LOT
more going bust than can do the bailing out and many
more than those prepared to do the bailing out.

and was the main pretext for the Irish 'stay in' vote.

Sure, but it remains to be seen if even the krauts can
bail them all out or are even prepared to try to do that.

Who in turn get their money either by borrowing themselves (issuing long
term bonds, for example, which are bought by private companies,
individuals and other countries),

Or they print it/hit a few keys on some keyboard.

While they may hit keys, it's not quite that simple ;-)

That’s basically what they propose to do.

or lend straight from revenue (countries like China).

They aint that stupid.

If they have stockpiles of cash, they'll generally put it somewhere.

And it wont be in spanish banks.

China's been lending to countries for quite a while

Not to spanish banks they havent.

- although not always via the usual suspects.

Not to places like Iceland or Ireland or Spain or Greece in fact.

Spain would have been given access to the money on near- crippling
interest rates.

Not with that sort of money.

It's reported as a 'low to government cost loan' - I don't believe it.

And we wont find out unless it doesn’t stop the run on spanish banks.

Time will tell...

This makes default a real possibility - a situation virtually unheard of
until recently.

Its happened before in south america most obviously.

I don't think Greece is in a position of actual default.

It is anyway.

It's simply 'rescheduled'

Nope, the lenders got to 'take a haircut' which
is code for a default on part of what was owed.

Yes - hence the inverted commas.

That cant fly, you said explicitly that they didn’t default.

They did, that’s what the haircut was about,
defaulting on part of what had been borrowed.

- but default is likely sooner rather than later - especially after the
elections.

Time will tell. The voters do appear to be
pretty keen on staying in the eurozone.

Mad IMO, but I'm not a greek.

I'd get the hell out and take my chances if I was in charge. Which
probably explains why I'm not ;-)

Gunna be interesting to see how they vote this time.

Gunna be fascinating to watch if they end up with another military
dictatorship.

En el artículo m, Rob
reply@ng.? escribió:

Spain would have been given access to the money on near-crippling
interest rates.

They've actually got it at a relatively low rate, but it's conditional
on them allowing Eurocrats to control their budget ever more tightly.

Now the Irish, Portuguese and Greeks are rumbling about how Spain has
had their bailout on more favourable terms than they had to agree to to
get theirs, and are threatening to demand renegotiation of their bailout
terms.

I've not read the details of the 100B - but that's my guess

Spain's cost of borrowing has reached levels where they can't afford to
issue any more debt, and there isn't going to be any more bailout
money, so I reckon a Spexit is inevitable. As you said, the results of
the Greek election (and very probably a Grexit) will be the trigger.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Jun 13, 4:41*am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo m, Rob
reply@ng.? escribió:

Spain would have been given access to the money on near-crippling
interest rates.

They've actually got it at a relatively low rate, but it's conditional
on them allowing Eurocrats to control their budget ever more tightly.

Now the Irish, Portuguese and Greeks are rumbling about how Spain has
had their bailout on more favourable terms than they had to agree to to
get theirs, and are threatening to demand renegotiation of their bailout
terms.

I've not read the details of the 100B - but that's my guess

Spain's cost of borrowing has reached levels where they can't afford to
issue any more debt, and there isn't going to be any more bailout
money, so I reckon a Spexit is inevitable. *As you said, the results of
the Greek election (and very probably a Grexit) will be the trigger.


And a lot of money down the drain for no good purpose.

Mike Tomlinson wrote
Rob reply@ng.? wrote

Spain would have been given access to the
money on near-crippling interest rates.

They've actually got it at a relatively low rate, but it's conditional on
them allowing Eurocrats to control their budget ever more tightly.

Nope, there is no such condition with Spain.

Now the Irish, Portuguese and Greeks are rumbling
about how Spain has had their bailout on more
favourable terms than they had to agree to to get theirs,

Because it's the Spanish banks that got the bailout, not the govt.

and are threatening to demand renegotiation of their bailout terms.

And they will just get an obscene gesture
in their general direction on that, you watch.

I've not read the details of the 100B - but that's my guess

Spain's cost of borrowing has reached levels where they can't afford to
issue any more debt, and there isn't going to be any more bailout money,

We'll see...

so I reckon a Spexit is inevitable. As you said, the results of the
Greek election (and very probably a Grexit) will be the trigger.

We'll see... It wasn't with Ireland.