On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Fri, 25 May 2012 23:44:59 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

I have a nieghbour with a heat pump. He has two bore holes. Pumps
water out of one and back (very cold) into the other. Now if you want
to see futile expense, it is a glaring example.

BTW. If the topic interests you there is the Renewable Heat incentive
almost up and running.

Last I heard that the Autumn 2012 start data had become a
consultation date with things not actually turning into money until
mid 2013.

My £300 RHPP for the solar thermal installation should be in the bank
by now though. B-)

Could be as good as the FIT. but with heat pumps etc. and they pay you
money for years after.

The RHI has never been as stupidly good as the tiny scale FiT
payments. And as the RHI money is government money not an indirect
tax on everyones electricity bill I can see the payment levels being
low, that's always assuming the "Green Deal" (that the RHI is part
of) ever gets implimented.

At one time it was thought that Solar Thermal might get 18p/unit, but
that rumour appears to have dropped to 8p/unit. B-(

--
Cheers
Dave.

On May 27, 7:04*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 27, 8:11 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

....

On May 26, 3:16 pm, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 25/05/2012 19:12, harry wrote:

On May 25, 9:56 am, Martin
wrote:
On 25/05/2012 09:45,www.GymRatZ.co.ukwrote:

(throwing ideas in the air for discussion and dissection)

The problem is one of cost effectiveness and complexity.

There is no point in saving power usage to create vast quantities
of
lukewarm water that you don't need in mid-summer if it makes the
whole
installation a lot more expensive and prone to failure.

A rough rule of thumb is that summer DHW is less than 10% maybe as
low
as 5% of peak winter space heating requirements. We are just too
far
north for solar power to be sensible without market distorting
FITs.

How so?
My PV panels generate more energy then I use. I need no further fuel
purchases for the next 20 odd years. *There is no maintenance. *It
is
a one off expense.

It makes no economic sense at all without the governments incorrectly
computed market distorting FIT payments.

The same kit installed at a sensible and sunny latitude would yield a
lifetime energy payback of 7-10x that of manufacture. At UK latitudes
you will be very lucky to get 4x (assuming here an unproven 25y life).

I think you will find maintenance becomes an issue after 10-15 years.

If I bought s diesel generator I would be buying fuel for evermore.

Indeed but you might like to calculate how long it would take before
the
cost of diesel exceeds the cost of your PV array. Without the
governments ill thought out solar subsidy the whole thing is daft!
It is an initiation programme to get the *idea off the ground.

Its actually just another political terminal stupidity that makes no
sense
whatever.

If anyone is daft it's you.

Nope, that stupid scheme is.

French nuclear power is heavily subsidised.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Who for example is funding the nuclear waste
disposal hole they are digging right now?

Those generating power with nukes, stupid.-
The French taxpayer is paying.

And when they all use electricity, what's the problem with that ?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The problemis that not all have shares in the nuclear reactors.
Taxpayers money is being transferred to shareholders.

On May 27, 8:37*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...


As I suspected, you HAVEN'T heard of it.

On May 28, 1:30*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2012 23:44:59 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
I have a nieghbour with a heat pump. He has two bore holes. *Pumps
water out of one and back (very cold) into the other. Now if you want
to see futile expense, it is a glaring example.
BTW. If the topic interests you there is the Renewable Heat incentive
almost up and running.

Last I heard that the Autumn 2012 start data had become a
consultation date with things not actually turning into money until
mid 2013.

My £300 RHPP for the solar thermal installation should be in the bank
by now though. *B-)

Could be as good as the FIT. but with heat pumps etc. and they pay you
money for years after.

The RHI has never been as stupidly good as the tiny scale FiT
payments. And as the RHI money is government money not an indirect
tax on everyones electricity bill I can see the payment levels being
low, that's always assuming the "Green Deal" (that the RHI is part
of) ever gets implimented.

At one time it was thought that Solar Thermal might get 18p/unit, but
that rumour appears to have dropped to 8p/unit. *B-(

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shh, don't tell TurNiP. He will go into a jealous paroxysm.

On May 27, 8:15*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:



Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

They are about quarter of a mile apart. You can go on a free trip
round the power station and listen to the Brasilian gov. propaganda.

On May 26, 12:24*am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...
On May 25, 9:45 am, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 25/05/2012 06:42, harry wrote:

Such a device is pointless. You don't need any house heating when the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK climate..

But if the cooling of the PV increases their output and can provide a
20+ (?) degree temperature rise to pre-heat mains cold water before it
goes through the combi. that could in it's self could make quite a
reduction on gas consumption during summer months for DHW would it not?

(throwing ideas in the air for discussion and dissection)

--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+Gym Equipment.

The final solution is massive insulation, large south windows and
small north windows, all with insulated shutters.
KISS.
Keep It Stupid Simple
Apart from the PV array, you need no high tech crap.
I have no gas, oil or electric heating.
I have thermal mass.

It works. *I have such a house *which was converted from an ordinary
house.
I am writing a book.

Any particular variety of thermal underwear?

Why would I need that?

On May 26, 12:22*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

....

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if given the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW elevation.

harry wrote:

On May 27, 8:37 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...


As I suspected, you HAVEN'T heard of it.

And as I suspected, you're full of **** since you don't know the
difference between the name of a waterfall system and the hydro station
that is some distance away from the waterfalls. Also noted your attempt
to sound knowledgeable about somewhere where you were merely an ignorant
tourist at best.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 7:04 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 27, 8:11 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 26, 3:16 pm, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 25/05/2012 19:12, harry wrote:

On May 25, 9:56 am, Martin

wrote:
On 25/05/2012 09:45,www.GymRatZ.co.ukwrote:

(throwing ideas in the air for discussion and dissection)

The problem is one of cost effectiveness and complexity.

There is no point in saving power usage to create vast
quantities
of
lukewarm water that you don't need in mid-summer if it makes the
whole
installation a lot more expensive and prone to failure.

A rough rule of thumb is that summer DHW is less than 10% maybe
as
low
as 5% of peak winter space heating requirements. We are just too
far
north for solar power to be sensible without market distorting
FITs.

How so?
My PV panels generate more energy then I use. I need no further
fuel
purchases for the next 20 odd years. There is no maintenance.
It
is
a one off expense.

It makes no economic sense at all without the governments
incorrectly
computed market distorting FIT payments.

The same kit installed at a sensible and sunny latitude would yield
a
lifetime energy payback of 7-10x that of manufacture. At UK
latitudes
you will be very lucky to get 4x (assuming here an unproven 25y
life).

I think you will find maintenance becomes an issue after 10-15
years.

If I bought s diesel generator I would be buying fuel for
evermore.

Indeed but you might like to calculate how long it would take
before
the
cost of diesel exceeds the cost of your PV array. Without the
governments ill thought out solar subsidy the whole thing is daft!
It is an initiation programme to get the idea off the ground.

Its actually just another political terminal stupidity that makes no
sense
whatever.

If anyone is daft it's you.

Nope, that stupid scheme is.

French nuclear power is heavily subsidised.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Who for example is funding the nuclear waste
disposal hole they are digging right now?

Those generating power with nukes, stupid.-
The French taxpayer is paying.

And when they all use electricity, what's the problem with that ?-

The problemis that not all have shares in the nuclear reactors.

Taxpayers money is being transferred to shareholders.

Nope, Their nukes are paid for out of the electricity charges and via
taxation, stupid.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 26, 12:22 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if given
the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW
elevation.

Given that our house is heated just fine for both UFH and Rad.
zones
with max. flow rate of 55 degrees C and we're sort sort of down
south
(Bristol latitude) if I could get 55 degrees from such a system
for
4
hours of the day in deep winter it _might_ prove to be of
significant
benefit by offsetting boiler run/start time into the evening.

Perhaps a summer/winter diverter that could (pre)heat DHW in
summer
and
CH in winter...

Just foundhttp://www.newformenergy.com/
and bounced them a few questions.

All depends on planning app. at the moment though... (and of
course
price of such a hybrid solution)
8¬|

Cheers - Pete
--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+GymEquipment.

Such a device is pointless. You don't need any house heating when
the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK
climate.
Spend your money on insulation.
Rod is from Oz ergo most of the stuff he rambles on about is
irrelevant here in the UK.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/
Whose house is that?

His.

It must be like living in a tomb.

Entirely appropriate given that he has one foot in the grave.

And it's a ****ed passive solar system. The windows are MUCH too
short vertically and there is no eave to stop solar input in summer
either.-
Vertically high windoes can't be effectively solar shaded,

Wrong, as always.

especially in far north locations such as ours

Wrong, as always.

Tch Tch. Solar shading is less needed in our climate than yours.

Still needed at times in summer even there.

And the house works.

And would work much better if it had been done better.

What have you actually achieved?

Designed a passive solar house from scratch,
built it entirely from a bare block of land myself,
and it works a hell of a lot better than your does.

I was also involved in the design and construction and
running of a couple of solar greenhouses that leaves
your tomb for dead and I was paid to do that too

So show us all a link to the pix.

There is no link to any pix, because it was done
40 years ago, when there was no internet stupid.

And I don't posture with pix like some anyway.

Or is this just more horse****?

Nope, unlike what spews from the back of you.

On Sun, 27 May 2012 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

At one time it was thought that Solar Thermal might get 18p/unit,
but
that rumour appears to have dropped to 8p/unit. *B-(

Shh, don't tell TurNiP. He will go into a jealous paroxysm.

What? Over a most £200/year?

I don't know how they will measure the ouput of solar thermal
systems, proper heat meters as sodding expensive as in adding one
would be a significant percentage of a normal solar thermal install.

The MCS certificate gives a figure for "Estimated Annual Generation"
so I guess they'll use that. It's about right, 1123kWHr or average
3kWhr/day. In winter winter it do sod all for days. This time of year
and with the current weather it's producing 6kWHrs/day.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article , www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 25/05/2012 06:42, harry wrote:

Such a device is pointless. You don't need any house heating when the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK climate.

But if the cooling of the PV increases their output and can provide a
20+ (?) degree temperature rise to pre-heat mains cold water before it
goes through the combi. that could in it's self could make quite a
reduction on gas consumption during summer months for DHW would it not?

You can buy hybrid thermal-PV systems, but "does it work" and "does it
make economic sense" are different questions.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...hermal-systems
http://www.newformenergy.com/photovoltaic-thermal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovo...olar_collector

(For even more efficiency, and even higher capital cost, use the electricity
to run a heat pump so the working fluid in the collectors is chilled below
ambient going in, and you get water output at full DHW temperature.
I'm not aware of anyone doing this, nor suggesting you can cover the additional
cost of the heat pump by doing so :-) )

On May 28, 7:48*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
harry wrote:
On May 27, 8:37 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...

As I suspected, you HAVEN'T heard of it.

And as I suspected, you're full of **** since you don't know the
difference between the name of a waterfall system and the hydro station
that is some distance away from the waterfalls. Also noted your attempt
to sound knowledgeable about somewhere where you were merely an ignorant
tourist at best.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are within easy walking distance of one another. The hydro
station is only possible because of the existance of the falls.

On May 28, 8:26*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 26, 12:22 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

....

On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if given
the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW
elevation.

Given that our house is heated just fine for both UFH and Rad.
zones
with max. flow rate of 55 degrees C and we're sort sort of down
south
(Bristol latitude) if I could get 55 degrees from such a system
for
4
hours of the day in deep winter it _might_ prove to be of
significant
benefit by offsetting boiler run/start time into the evening.

Perhaps a summer/winter diverter that could (pre)heat DHW in
summer
and
CH in winter...

Just foundhttp://www.newformenergy.com/
and bounced them a few questions.

All depends on planning app. at the moment though... (and of
course
price of such a hybrid solution)
8¬|

Cheers - Pete
--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+GymEquipment.

Such a device is pointless. *You don't need any house heating when
the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK
climate.
Spend your money on insulation.
Rod is from Oz ergo most of the stuff he rambles on about is
irrelevant here in the UK.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/
Whose house is that?

His.

It must be like living in a tomb.

Entirely appropriate given that he has one foot in the grave.

And it's a ****ed passive solar system. The windows are MUCH too
short vertically and there is no eave to stop solar input in summer
either.-
Vertically high windoes can't be effectively solar shaded,

Wrong, as always.

especially in far north locations such as ours

Wrong, as always.

Tch Tch. *Solar shading is less needed in our climate than yours.

Still needed at times in summer even there.

And the house works.

And would work much better if it had been done better.

What have you actually achieved?

Designed a passive solar house from scratch,
built it entirely from a bare block of land myself,
and it works a hell of a lot better than your does.

I was also involved in the design and construction and
running of a couple of solar greenhouses that leaves
your tomb for dead and I was paid to do that too
So show us all a link to the pix.

There is no link to any pix, because it was done
40 years ago, *when there was no internet stupid.


Just a load of bollix from a lying halfwit.

On May 28, 10:03*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 27 May 2012 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
At one time it was thought that Solar Thermal might get 18p/unit,
but
that rumour appears to have dropped to 8p/unit. *B-(

Shh, don't tell TurNiP. He will go into a jealous paroxysm.

What? Over a most £200/year?

I don't know how they will measure the ouput of solar thermal
systems, proper heat meters as sodding expensive as in adding one
would be a significant percentage of a normal solar thermal install.

The MCS certificate gives a figure for "Estimated Annual Generation"
so I guess they'll use that. It's about right, 1123kWHr or average
3kWhr/day. In winter winter it do sod all for days. This time of year
and with the current weather it's producing 6kWHrs/day.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Even if it was £2/year. He is SO principled you know.

They just guess the production.
I had a long chat with a rep a few months ago. He said you can get
CO2 refrigerant filled air source heat pumps that work down to minus
10degC
He was not optimistic about the future of RHI.

What do you do with all that heat in this weather?

My PV array has been doing 27Kwh/day this last few days (almost
max.) . But it is virtually all exported. SWMBO has been doing all
the washing/baking etc. We have heated all our hot water tanks.

On May 28, 11:01*am, (Alan Braggins)
wrote:
In article ,www.GymRatZ.co.ukwrote:
On 25/05/2012 06:42, harry wrote:

Such a device is pointless. *You don't need any house heating when the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK climate.

But if the cooling of the PV increases their output and can provide a
20+ (?) degree temperature rise to pre-heat mains cold water before it
goes through the combi. that could in it's self could make quite a
reduction on gas consumption during summer months for DHW would it not?

You can buy hybrid thermal-PV systems, but "does it work" and "does it
make economic sense" are different questions.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...olar_collector

(For even more efficiency, and even higher capital cost, use the electricity
to run a heat pump so the working fluid in the collectors is chilled below
ambient going in, and you get water output at full DHW temperature.
I'm not aware of anyone doing this, nor suggesting you can cover the additional
cost of the heat pump by doing so :-) )

I was told it can be achieved by runiing two heat pumps "in series"
Dunno anyone who has done it though.

As per previous post, the way forward seems to be CO2 refrigerant air
source heat pumps for the future.
http://uk.sanyo.com/aircon/Products/.../Introduction/

On 28/05/2012 06:41, harry wrote:
They are about quarter of a mile apart. You can go on a free trip
round the power station and listen to the Brasilian gov. propaganda.

I might do that. I suspect there will be a wedding in Brasil for me to
go to soon, and I've never been to S America.

Andy

On 28/05/2012 18:01, harry wrote:
They just guess the production.
I had a long chat with a rep a few months ago. He said you can get
CO2 refrigerant filled air source heat pumps that work down to minus
10degC
He was not optimistic about the future of RHI.

The limiting factor on air source systems is condensation - if the cold
end is below the dew point you get condensation. If it's also below
freezing you get ice. This is the same whether it's filled with
ammonia, CO2, Freon or brine.

You then have to heat the cold end to get the ice to melt. You can
imagine what that would do to efficiency.

Andy

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 28, 8:26 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 26, 12:22 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if
given
the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW
elevation.

Given that our house is heated just fine for both UFH and Rad.
zones
with max. flow rate of 55 degrees C and we're sort sort of
down
south
(Bristol latitude) if I could get 55 degrees from such a
system
for
4
hours of the day in deep winter it _might_ prove to be of
significant
benefit by offsetting boiler run/start time into the evening.

Perhaps a summer/winter diverter that could (pre)heat DHW in
summer
and
CH in winter...

Just foundhttp://www.newformenergy.com/
and bounced them a few questions.

All depends on planning app. at the moment though... (and of
course
price of such a hybrid solution)
8¬|

Cheers - Pete
--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+GymEquipment.

Such a device is pointless. You don't need any house heating
when
the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK
climate.
Spend your money on insulation.
Rod is from Oz ergo most of the stuff he rambles on about is
irrelevant here in the UK.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/
Whose house is that?

His.

It must be like living in a tomb.

Entirely appropriate given that he has one foot in the grave.

And it's a ****ed passive solar system. The windows are MUCH too
short vertically and there is no eave to stop solar input in summer
either.-
Vertically high windoes can't be effectively solar shaded,

Wrong, as always.

especially in far north locations such as ours

Wrong, as always.

Tch Tch. Solar shading is less needed in our climate than yours.

Still needed at times in summer even there.

And the house works.

And would work much better if it had been done better.

What have you actually achieved?

Designed a passive solar house from scratch,
built it entirely from a bare block of land myself,
and it works a hell of a lot better than your does.

I was also involved in the design and construction and
running of a couple of solar greenhouses that leaves
your tomb for dead and I was paid to do that too
So show us all a link to the pix.

There is no link to any pix, because it was done
40 years ago, when there was no internet stupid.


Just a load of bollix from a lying halfwit.

The greenhouses are fully documented in something you have to pay for to
read.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=O4o_AAAAYAAJ

On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

I was told it can be achieved by runiing two heat pumps "in series"
Dunno anyone who has done it though.

I believe that there are commercial two stage heat pumps in the
market place that provide DHW and can power conventional wet CH
systems.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:30:47 +0100, Andy Champ wrote:

The limiting factor on air source systems is condensation - if the cold
end is below the dew point you get condensation.

Assuming there is any moisture in the air to condense. Condensation
isn't a great problem as it will drain away.

If it's also below freezing you get ice.

Air temp below freezing or evaporator below freezing? If the air temp
is below freezing there won't be any significant moisture present to
condense and form ice. So air source heat pumps work well with air
temps from 0C down to around -10C. They struggle, due to icing and
having to defrost, with air temps between 0 and about 5C.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

What do you do with all that heat in this weather?

Dump it into the heatstore and use it later. That has got up to 82C
the last few days. A couple of ordinary baths or one teenage daughter
soon gets it back down to 70C or lower. Teenage daughter with hair
wash and bath brought the backup oil boiler on last night... IIRC
that comes on at 60C and off at 65C

--
Cheers
Dave.

On May 28, 8:27*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 28/05/2012 06:41, harry wrote:

They are about quarter of a mile apart. *You can go on a free trip
round the power station and listen to the Brasilian gov. propaganda.

I might do that. *I suspect there will be a wedding in Brasil for me to
go to soon, and I've never been to S America.

Andy


Brasil is a marvellous place. When I went it was really cheap.
Excellent nosh. Many "churrascias" you goin and stay as long as you
want and eat as much as you like. Great people too.
Cites are amazing, the commerce and industry staggering. I saw a 24
lane highway in Sao Paulo.
The long distance buses can be the most luxurious you can imagine.

Try and spend some time there and go on an Amazon cruise/Manaus and
even better for wildlife, the Pantanal.

The Itiapu dam is amazing size as are the falls. The weather in the
South of Brasil is almost temperate, it was really cold when we were
there.

On May 28, 8:30*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 28/05/2012 18:01, harry wrote:

They just guess the production.
I had a long chat with a rep a few months ago. *He said you can get
CO2 refrigerant filled air source heat pumps that work down to minus
10degC
He was not optimistic about the future of RHI.

The limiting factor on air source systems is condensation - if the cold
end is below the dew point you get condensation. *If it's also below
freezing you get ice. *This is the same whether it's filled with
ammonia, CO2, Freon or brine.

You then have to heat the cold end to get the ice to melt. You can
imagine what that would do to efficiency.

Andy

Apparently a lot of the freezing up problem is caused by undersized
evaporator/outside bit. Occurs on hight humidity cold weather.
Some systems briefly reverse to melt the ice off.
Bit here on the problems.
http://www.ethical-junction.org/blog...ce-heat-pumps/

On May 28, 9:44*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 28, 8:26 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

....

On May 26, 12:22 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if
given
the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW
elevation.

Given that our house is heated just fine for both UFH and Rad.
zones
with max. flow rate of 55 degrees C and we're sort sort of
down
south
(Bristol latitude) if I could get 55 degrees from such a
system
for
4
hours of the day in deep winter it _might_ prove to be of
significant
benefit by offsetting boiler run/start time into the evening.

Perhaps a summer/winter diverter that could (pre)heat DHW in
summer
and
CH in winter...

Just foundhttp://www.newformenergy.com/
and bounced them a few questions.

All depends on planning app. at the moment though... (and of
course
price of such a hybrid solution)
8¬|

Cheers - Pete
--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+GymEquipment.

Such a device is pointless. *You don't need any house heating
when
the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK
climate.
Spend your money on insulation.
Rod is from Oz ergo most of the stuff he rambles on about is
irrelevant here in the UK.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/
Whose house is that?

His.

It must be like living in a tomb.

Entirely appropriate given that he has one foot in the grave.

And it's a ****ed passive solar system. The windows are MUCH too
short vertically and there is no eave to stop solar input in summer
either.-
Vertically high windoes can't be effectively solar shaded,

Wrong, as always.

especially in far north locations such as ours

Wrong, as always.

Tch Tch. *Solar shading is less needed in our climate than yours.

Still needed at times in summer even there.

And the house works.

And would work much better if it had been done better.

What have you actually achieved?

Designed a passive solar house from scratch,
built it entirely from a bare block of land myself,
and it works a hell of a lot better than your does.

I was also involved in the design and construction and
running of a couple of solar greenhouses that leaves
your tomb for dead and I was paid to do that too
So show us all a link to the pix.

There is no link to any pix, because it was done
40 years ago, *when there was no internet stupid.

Just a load of bollix from a lying halfwit.

The greenhouses are fully documented in something you have to pay for to
read.http://books.google.com.au/books?id=O4o_AAAAYAAJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah right. Very convenient.
Published in 1988 (Not forty yars ago.)
Reviews=0
And is your name Garzoli?
And what have horticultural greenhouses got to do with passive houses?
I have a greenhouse too.

Lying tosspot.

Oh,try and stay on a ranch,esp if you are into horses and don't mind
crocodiles and snakes.

On 28/05/2012 22:48, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:30:47 +0100, Andy Champ wrote:

The limiting factor on air source systems is condensation - if the cold
end is below the dew point you get condensation.

Assuming there is any moisture in the air to condense. Condensation
isn't a great problem as it will drain away.

There usually is some moisture in the air and morning dew even in
deserts. It isn't a problem unless the heat exchanger is close to
freezing and the air is humid when ice builds up on the coldest part(s).

If it's also below freezing you get ice.

Air temp below freezing or evaporator below freezing? If the air temp
is below freezing there won't be any significant moisture present to
condense and form ice. So air source heat pumps work well with air
temps from 0C down to around -10C. They struggle, due to icing and
having to defrost, with air temps between 0 and about 5C.

They work great in Japan where winters are extremely dry - so dry that
it is unpleasant and static electricity is a real annoyance. And the
summers although very humid there are hot enough that the thing is in no
danger at all of getting below freezing.

But in the UK with our dank cold damp dreary winters for weeks on end
the thing will spend more than half its time defrosting. And aircon is
unnecessary in the summer save for half a dozen hot days and nights.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 28, 9:44 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...





On May 28, 8:26 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 26, 12:22 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 25, 10:58 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On May 25, 6:42 am, harry wrote:
On May 24, 10:00 pm, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"

wrote:
On 24/05/2012 21:39, Rod Speed wrote:

And if you want something that really heats the water
properly to high temps, its better to have two separate
systems, one for the electricity and one for the water.

Thanks for input Rod
It all revolves around a proposed extension which will (if
given
the
go-ahead) give us a 15m long x 2.5m pitched roof with SW
elevation.

Given that our house is heated just fine for both UFH and
Rad.
zones
with max. flow rate of 55 degrees C and we're sort sort of
down
south
(Bristol latitude) if I could get 55 degrees from such a
system
for
4
hours of the day in deep winter it _might_ prove to be of
significant
benefit by offsetting boiler run/start time into the
evening.

Perhaps a summer/winter diverter that could (pre)heat DHW
in
summer
and
CH in winter...

Just foundhttp://www.newformenergy.com/
and bounced them a few questions.

All depends on planning app. at the moment though... (and
of
course
price of such a hybrid solution)
8¬|

Cheers - Pete
--http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk-Fitness+GymEquipment.

Such a device is pointless. You don't need any house heating
when
the
sun is shining. Heat collected in Winter is minimal in the UK
climate.
Spend your money on insulation.
Rod is from Oz ergo most of the stuff he rambles on about is
irrelevant here in the UK.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/
Whose house is that?

His.

It must be like living in a tomb.

Entirely appropriate given that he has one foot in the grave.

And it's a ****ed passive solar system. The windows are MUCH too
short vertically and there is no eave to stop solar input in
summer
either.-
Vertically high windoes can't be effectively solar shaded,

Wrong, as always.

especially in far north locations such as ours

Wrong, as always.

Tch Tch. Solar shading is less needed in our climate than yours.

Still needed at times in summer even there.

And the house works.

And would work much better if it had been done better.

What have you actually achieved?

Designed a passive solar house from scratch,
built it entirely from a bare block of land myself,
and it works a hell of a lot better than your does.

I was also involved in the design and construction and
running of a couple of solar greenhouses that leaves
your tomb for dead and I was paid to do that too
So show us all a link to the pix.

There is no link to any pix, because it was done
40 years ago, when there was no internet stupid.

Just a load of bollix from a lying halfwit.

The greenhouses are fully documented in something you have to pay for to
read.http://books.google.com.au/books?id=O4o_AAAAYAAJ-

Yeah right. Very convenient.

You never ever could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Published in 1988 (Not forty yars ago.)

Never said the greenhouses were 40 years ago, ****wit.

Reviews=0

Completely and utterly irrelevant to anything.

That isnt true of the paperback he also did.

And is your name Garzoli?

Nope. I never said I was the only one involved in the greenhouses.

And what have horticultural greenhouses got to do with passive houses?

You made a spectacular fool of yourself with your
puerile **** about what I have achieved, ****wit.

I have a greenhouse too.

But not a SOLAR greenhouse, ****wit.

reams of your puerile **** any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed
where it belongs

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...

The limiting factor on air source systems is condensation - if the cold
end is below the dew point you get condensation.

Condensation is a good thing, you get all the latent heat released by the
condensing process.

If it's also below freezing you get ice.

You get the latent heat from freezing, but it is also an insulator.
There needs to be a mechanical way to remove the ice and then it won't be a
problem.

This is the same whether it's filled with ammonia, CO2, Freon or brine.

You then have to heat the cold end to get the ice to melt. You can imagine
what that would do to efficiency.

It would be about the same as when it is none freezing (you extracted the
latent heat when it iced so you are putting the same back in to melt it),
leaving it on is what makes it less efficient.

I wonder if they can coat the heat exchanger with a water repellent coating
to make the condensate fall off before it freezes?
Also why do they have the channels horizontal so they collect condensate and
ice up?


Andy

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

What do you do with all that heat in this weather?

Dump it into the heatstore and use it later. That has got up to 82C
the last few days. A couple of ordinary baths or one teenage daughter
soon gets it back down to 70C or lower. Teenage daughter with hair
wash and bath brought the backup oil boiler on last night... IIRC
that comes on at 60C and off at 65C

Think of how much you can save by setting it to 50C which is more than
enough to work a shower or a bath.

Den 29.05.2012 07:34, skrev Martin Brown:

They work great in Japan where winters are extremely dry - so dry that
it is unpleasant and static electricity is a real annoyance. And the
summers although very humid there are hot enough that the thing is in no
danger at all of getting below freezing.

But in the UK with our dank cold damp dreary winters for weeks on end
the thing will spend more than half its time defrosting. And aircon is
unnecessary in the summer save for half a dozen hot days and nights.

They also work great in Scandinavia.
Here all heat-pumps have defrosters.
I have made an EXCEL sheet to calculate the payback time,
and find a payback-time of 1.66 years for my heat-pump.
http://home.no/howler/Varmepumpetest_js.xls
--
jo
"When you measure what you are speaking about and express
it in numbers, you know something about it, but when you
cannot express it in numbers your knowledge about is of
a meagre and unsatisfactory kind."
--William Thomson (Lord Kelvin).

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

What do you do with all that heat in this weather?

Dump it into the heatstore and use it later. That has got up to 82C
the last few days. A couple of ordinary baths or one teenage daughter
soon gets it back down to 70C or lower. Teenage daughter with hair
wash and bath brought the backup oil boiler on last night... IIRC
that comes on at 60C and off at 65C

Think of how much you can save by setting it to 50C which is more than
enough to work a shower or a bath.


Goliy. I make that almost 2p a year saving.




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Tue, 29 May 2012 09:58:31 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Think of how much you can save by setting it to 50C which is more than
enough to work a shower or a bath.

Engage brain this is a 300l thermal store, there is no stored
domestic ho****er. Cold mains in, ho****er out at 50C (via
thermostatic mixer valve so you don't get 80C+ water out the taps...)
at at least 20l/min and on demand. If the store was only at 50C it
wouldn't be long before the domestic hot water was only domestic luke
warm water.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Tue, 29 May 2012 09:58:31 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Think of how much you can save by setting it to 50C which is more than
enough to work a shower or a bath.

Engage brain this is a 300l thermal store, there is no stored
domestic ho****er. Cold mains in, ho****er out at 50C (via
thermostatic mixer valve so you don't get 80C+ water out the taps...)
at at least 20l/min and on demand. If the store was only at 50C it
wouldn't be long before the domestic hot water was only domestic luke
warm water.

Well that's all you need.
Why would you need more than lukewarm.

On 29/05/2012 20:45, dennis@home wrote:

Well that's all you need.
Why would you need more than lukewarm.

He already mentioned his daughter. Which tends to imply a wife...

Andy

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Tue, 29 May 2012 09:58:31 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Think of how much you can save by setting it to 50C which is more than
enough to work a shower or a bath.

Engage brain this is a 300l thermal store, there is no stored
domestic ho****er. Cold mains in, ho****er out at 50C (via
thermostatic mixer valve so you don't get 80C+ water out the taps...)
at at least 20l/min and on demand. If the store was only at 50C it
wouldn't be long before the domestic hot water was only domestic luke
warm water.

Well that's all you need.
Why would you need more than lukewarm.


possibly to comply with health and safety regulations?


60C to kill the bugs IIRC

I thought you of all people would have known that.

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

In message , Steve Firth
writes
harry wrote:

On May 27, 8:37 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh - Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...


As I suspected, you HAVEN'T heard of it.

And as I suspected, you're full of **** since you don't know the
difference between the name of a waterfall system and the hydro station
that is some distance away from the waterfalls. Also noted your attempt
to sound knowledgeable about somewhere where you were merely an ignorant
tourist at best.


C'mon now - Harry's got a lonely planet guide, he's a virtual native


--
geoff

geoff wrote:
In message , Steve Firth
writes
harry wrote:

On May 27, 8:37 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
On 26/05/2012 07:26, harry wrote:

Don't baffle him. He's never heard of it. I have been there and to
Iguassu (Brasil) far bigger still.

I wasn't aware that Iguaçu had a power station... googles oh -
Itaipu?

Andy

Its on Planet Harry...


As I suspected, you HAVEN'T heard of it.

And as I suspected, you're full of **** since you don't know the
difference between the name of a waterfall system and the hydro station
that is some distance away from the waterfalls. Also noted your attempt
to sound knowledgeable about somewhere where you were merely an ignorant
tourist at best.


C'mon now - Harry's got a lonely planet guide, he's a virtual native


And steve firth is full of **** because the Itaipu *dam* is on the
Parana river not on the Iguaçu river /waterfall *at all*..


One concludes that not only has harry not been there but that steve
firth cant use google either.

Nothing new there, then.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.