Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100 reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:10:24 +0000, Mike Harrison wrote:

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where reliability, servicability and manufacturer
service are good, even it if costs more?

Fuel?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:35:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:10:24 +0000, Mike Harrison wrote:

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where reliability, servicability and manufacturer
service are good, even it if costs more?

Fuel?
Gas.

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if
costs more?

Look at the Intergas range. Built like tanks. The combi only has four
moving parts. The unit works on DHW even if the pump fails, which is a
standard Grundfos available from B&Q, not a £250 special pump only for their
model combi like many others. The pump is not used when using DHW, so
cheaper to run. No three-way valve. Simple, well built, well designed and
well thought out for maintenance. It can even be on an F&E tank in the loft
for simplicity. Get the outside weather sensor with it if you want
excellent comfort conditions. Some decent deals around for them. They are
well priced for what they are.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:06:07 +0000 (UTC), "Doctor Drivel" wrote:


"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
.. .

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if
costs more?

Look at the Intergas range. Built like tanks. The combi only has four
moving parts. The unit works on DHW even if the pump fails, which is a
standard Grundfos available from B&Q, not a £250 special pump only for their
model combi like many others. The pump is not used when using DHW, so
cheaper to run. No three-way valve. Simple, well built, well designed and
well thought out for maintenance. It can even be on an F&E tank in the loft
for simplicity. Get the outside weather sensor with it if you want
excellent comfort conditions. Some decent deals around for them. They are
well priced for what they are.

Thanks - looks promising - the only complaint I can find anywhere is a flimsy install jig and offset
flue, other than that nothing but good words....

On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100 reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?



We have been very happy with our Vaillant, as have quite a few other
family members. What is wrong with your current boiler?

--
David

On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100 reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?



Vaillant or Worcester-Bosch gets my vote.

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years ago.

On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

Indeed... self selecting groups are not really that reliable.

Geoff will be along shortly to give you his take (his company
refurbishes PCBs and Fans etc for many boilers - and hence gets a much
better view of the commonly failing models).

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100 reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Reports would seem to support that the ISARs have a fairly high failure
rate, although having said that, I fitted one shortly after they came
out (i.e. before the problems became well known), and it worked
exceedingly well with only one minor problem in the four or so years
that I owned it before selling the house.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Its interesting that the boiler makers have got very good at inserting
themselves into a customer relationship which technically speaking has
nothing to do with them! However it suits the installers since it lets
them off the hook. Probably not good for their future revenue, but at
the same time frees them from the complexities of keeping up to date
with the techniques necessary for fault finding on what has become a
complex bit of technology, with a sophisticated control system.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?

This is anecdotal, rather than based on hard numbers, however:

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation at the moment, and indeed
their kit is very nicely put together. WB was for sometime frequently
recommended, but more recent reports seem to suggest the position has
been slipping a little.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Look at the Intergas range.

Yet another recommendation. How many does this make over the years?

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mr Pounder wrote:

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around for reviews, comments etc at the few
sites that review this sort of thing. This site seemed to have about
the most reviews http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years
ago.

Potterton were amongst the best once. Then got taken over and became the
worst. Names don't mean much these days.

--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 02/02/2012 16:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In articleF_Gdnc68mbccMrfSnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
John writes:
Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec,& Keston.
Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.
I am sure Ed Sirret used to have a Keston...

I think they have been taken over by Ideal now as a few of their models
look exactly like the Ideal Logic range.

http://www.idealheating.com/products/logic-combi.php

http://www.keston.co.uk/our-products/c-range/30c/

The Celsius 25 has been superseded by the Q28 but I haven't heard much
about them.


--
David

On 02/02/2012 16:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In articleF_Gdnc68mbccMrfSnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
John writes:

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec,& Keston.

Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

As is the problem with anecdotal reports ;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

That may be part of the difficulty. A few folks install them, and we
don't hear of further problems. This may mean they have been on the
whole reliable, or it may mean their owners are good at fixing them up
until the point they scrap them and fit something else!

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:41:34 -0000, "Mr Pounder" wrote:


"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
.. .
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years ago.


A problem I've seen mentioned a few times is that previously good brands have either been taken
over, or cut costs too much to remain competitive.

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.

we have Kestons (13yo) in our amateur theatre. with one there has been a
problem with the electronic control module, the other is as installed.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On 02/02/2012 15:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Mr wrote:

"Mike wrote in message
...
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around for reviews, comments etc at the few
sites that review this sort of thing. This site seemed to have about
the most reviews http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years
ago.

Potterton were amongst the best once. Then got taken over and became the
worst. Names don't mean much these days.

Its almost a case of if you have a good name then beware, someone with a
bad reputation that they are seeking to improve will probably come along
to try and buy you out! ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/02/2012 15:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Look at the Intergas range.

Yet another recommendation. How many does this make over the years?

Funny how they change isn't it? There was a time that a Glow Worm was
the "high flow rate" combi (i.e. 14 lpm!) that he recommended... (or two
of them)... what else have we had; Istors, Remeha, Alphas you name it.
Each flavour of the month for a bit, and then no further mention!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Feb 2, 3:45*pm, John Rumm wrote:

Indeed... self selecting groups are not really that reliable.

The situation is made worse by fitters recommending brands they either
get cheap or are used to fitting. Suggest anything out of the ordinary
like Broag or Atmos (or the Eco-Hometec you mentioned) and there's a
lot of chin stroking, whistling through teeth and mumblings about
sitting in the cold while you wait for spares for 'that foreign
stuff'.

Everyone ends up with WB not because it's the best but because no-one
got fired for buying IBM.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mr Pounder wrote:

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around for reviews, comments etc at the few
sites that review this sort of thing. This site seemed to have about
the most reviews http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years
ago.

Potterton were amongst the best once. Then got taken over and became the
worst. Names don't mean much these days.

Aye.

--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2012 15:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Look at the Intergas range.

Yet another recommendation. How many does this make over the years?

Funny how they change isn't it? There was a time that a Glow Worm was
the "high flow rate" combi (i.e. 14 lpm!) that he recommended... (or two
of them)... what else have we had; Istors, Remeha, Alphas you name it.
Each flavour of the month for a bit, and then no further mention!

I suppose it depends which one comes up on Google first? ;-)

--
*I get enough exercise just pushing my luck.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/02/2012 17:07, mike wrote:
On Feb 2, 3:45 pm, John wrote:

Indeed... self selecting groups are not really that reliable.

The situation is made worse by fitters recommending brands they either
get cheap or are used to fitting. Suggest anything out of the ordinary
like Broag or Atmos (or the Eco-Hometec you mentioned) and there's a
lot of chin stroking, whistling through teeth and mumblings about
sitting in the cold while you wait for spares for 'that foreign
stuff'.

Everyone ends up with WB not because it's the best but because no-one
got fired for buying IBM.

Another thing to keep in mind if you are capable of swapping out
components for yourself, is that there is a quite a decent industry out
there supplying boiler spares. It quite often means that bits can be had
relatively easily, whereas finding someone prepared to come fit them can
be hard.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Feb 2, 11:10*am, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing..
This site seemed to have about the most reviewshttp://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g. *Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100 reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch, Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price, however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable *'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a ~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if costs more?

If you mean "at any price" - look at gas-fired Rayburns.

Ignore all the advice based on old-fashioned Rayburns, nowadays they
build very efficient boilers, combined with range cookers - which can
be operated entirely separately.

Having seen the internals of my (oil-fired) Rayburn when it was
installed, build quality is outstanding.

I believe spares availability stretches back to at least the 1960's.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Geoff will be along shortly to give you his take (his company refurbishes
PCBs and Fans etc for many boilers - and hence gets a much better view of
the commonly failing models).

How does geof know what the failure rate is?
He doesn't know how many boilers are installed, just how many he gets orders
for.
He may get 10 bad boilers where only 100 are installed and get 1000 better
boilers where 1 million are fitted.
His figures would show the opposite of what is actually true.

At best he could comment on the observed quality of the PCBs but not on the
fault rate unless he gets a lot of returns for his own stuff where he knows
the quantity installed.

Modern Vaillants are good (though after two troublesome combis, the
first a Vaillant) I just changed to a Vaillant system.

In article ,
gremlin_95 writes:
On 02/02/2012 16:01, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In articleF_Gdnc68mbccMrfSnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
John writes:
Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec,& Keston.
Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.
I am sure Ed Sirret used to have a Keston...

Yes, a C25. He installed his about the same time I did mine,
although we didn't know this until afterwards. I got the full
details from Keston of how to set the gas mixture, and I gave
them to him. (The instructions in the manual are no good.)
Although the gas mixture was supposed to be factory set, we
all found it was miles out when we installed ours, so far out
the burner wouldn't work properly and the thing made a sound
like a 32' organ pipe.

I think they have been taken over by Ideal now as a few of their models
look exactly like the Ideal Logic range.

Yes, that was several years back.

http://www.idealheating.com/products/logic-combi.php

http://www.keston.co.uk/our-products/c-range/30c/

The Celsius 25 has been superseded by the Q28 but I haven't heard much
about them.

The Celsius 25 was their first domestic sized condensing boiler.
(They had done condensing boilers for some years, but only large
industrial ones.) The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian
company they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time. Other domestic ones
in the UK at the time were mostly aluminium heat exchangers which
quickly corroded, or convention boilers with later design mods to
add a secondary condensing heat exchanger, which could not operate
as flexibly, and turned out to be very unreliable and vanished from
the market quite quickly.

The Keston was relatively simple, designed as a condenser from the
outset, and quite cheap. There were a number of design issues, none
major, and Keston did fix them through the sales life of the boiler.

The Eco-Hometec (?) appeared afterwards, which Andy Hall fitted.
This was a more complex boiler capable of more automation, but it
cost 3 times as much. I might have gone for it if it had been
around a year earlier.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:06:07 +0000 (UTC), "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
. ..

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if
costs more?

Look at the Intergas range. Built like tanks. The combi only has four
moving parts. The unit works on DHW even if the pump fails, which is a
standard Grundfos available from B&Q, not a £250 special pump only for
their
model combi like many others. The pump is not used when using DHW, so
cheaper to run. No three-way valve. Simple, well built, well designed
and
well thought out for maintenance. It can even be on an F&E tank in the
loft
for simplicity. Get the outside weather sensor with it if you want
excellent comfort conditions. Some decent deals around for them. They are
well priced for what they are.

Thanks - looks promising - the only complaint I can find anywhere is a
flimsy install jig and offset
flue, other than that nothing but good words....

The install jig is an extra.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Look at the Intergas range.

Yet another recommendation.

You are a plantpot.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/02/2012 15:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Look at the Intergas range.

Yet another recommendation. How many does this make over the years?

Funny how they change isn't it?

You are a plantpot...and from Essex as well.

"gremlin_95" wrote in message
...
On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of
thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with
horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't
often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small
number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of
problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g.
Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100
reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a
large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of
the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty
people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design
flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer
is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch,
Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price,
however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about
electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if
costs more?

We have been very happy with our Vaillant,

Expensive, dodgy service, not as reliable as most make out, and no high
flowrate combi models.

"Alan Deane" wrote in message
.com...
On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of
thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with
horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't
often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small
number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of
problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g.
Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100
reviews with 1-star avarage) ,
but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a
large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of
the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's service/warranty
people.

Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design
flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the manufacturer
is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch,
Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price,
however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about
electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it if
costs more?

Vaillant or Worcester-Bosch gets my vote.

Oh my God. Ever heard of Intergas or ATAG? I doubt it.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation

Overrated.

WB was for sometime frequently recommended,

Now garbage.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco Hometec,
& Keston.

Viessman is good, Keston is now not much better than scrap metal. The best
is ATAG. The ATAG EC325C has an integrated gassaver and weather
compensation.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

There are two still running in my old church in Twickenham, now into
their 11th winter and running fine AFAIK. The first few years were
problematic, but in fairness to Keston they did design out some of
the teething problems.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

In article
, mike
writes
On Feb 2, 3:45*pm, John Rumm wrote:

Indeed... self selecting groups are not really that reliable.

The situation is made worse by fitters recommending brands they either
get cheap or are used to fitting. Suggest anything out of the ordinary
like Broag or Atmos (or the Eco-Hometec you mentioned) and there's a
lot of chin stroking, whistling through teeth and mumblings about
sitting in the cold while you wait for spares for 'that foreign
stuff'.

Everyone ends up with WB not because it's the best but because no-one
got fired for buying IBM.

Last time I checked, Eco Hometec (as they were branded here) no longer
had a presence in the UK. I looked at them for my system and the
design/support was excellent but the value added features all came at a
substantial extra cost so it priced itself out of the market. The tuning
software was of particular interest but IIRC it was targeted at
installers so it was in the hundreds ballpark.

In the end I went with a Keston C25 as the unique features were needed
for my install and it is still going strong. That may be in part due to
my re-calibration of the input rate at install time, it was miles out
when shipped from the factory and the resulting mixture problems could
have screwed it in short order. No other major problems.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:43:16 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian company
they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time.

Romanian I think. My recollection is that the heat exchanger is a
an alloy lump with end plates bolted on (like a car cylinder head),
gaskets a potential weakness.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 16:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

There are two still running in my old church in Twickenham, now into
their 11th winter and running fine AFAIK. The first few years were
problematic, but in fairness to Keston they did design out some of
the teething problems.

I thought it was one of yours which burned out its heat
exchanger, burning the cabinet case? Maybe it was someone
else's?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Tony Bryer
writes
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:43:16 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian company
they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time.

Romanian I think. My recollection is that the heat exchanger is a
an alloy lump with end plates bolted on (like a car cylinder head),
gaskets a potential weakness.

That reminds me, I had a slight weep recently (approx 8yrs in) from the
joint with the end castings (they have waterways so are a little more
than simple plates) but a tighten up of all the end screws sorted it
out. They all needed about a quarter turn or so.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:43:16 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian company
they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time.

Romanian I think. My recollection is that the heat exchanger is a
an alloy lump with end plates bolted on (like a car cylinder head),
gaskets a potential weakness.

Ah, probably was Romanian.

Mine's made of thick welded stainless steel sheet and stainless
steel tubing - AFAIK, they all were. I can well imagine it's a
very expensive part to make, and probably most of the boiler's
43kg weight (there isn't a lot else in it - the grundfoss pump
and mains transformer would be the only other parts weighing
anything much). As a replacement part, it costs the same as the
whole boiler did originally.

The bolted on end plates look like an alloy, but they just loop
back the internal corrigated stainless steel tubes, and have no
contact with the inside of the heat exchanger or condensate.
They are only exposed to the central heating water. I haven't
heard of any failures or leaks with these end plates.

The burner gasket is a bit of a pain, as it cracks into about
20 pieces the first time you fire up the boiler, which doesn't
matter except it means you have to replace it every time you take
the burner off for servicing. I eventually stopped taking the
burner off when servicing, because there was never any dirt
to be cleaned out, so it was doing more harm than good. I assume
that if anything deteriorates there, I'll see deterioration
in the flue gas analysis, but I never have. The only other
thing to check is the thermal insulation inside the heat
exchanger which does deteriorate, but as it's not replaceable
(it's put in before welding together), there's not much point
in checking it as there's nothing you can do about it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

snip

The Celsius 25 was their first domestic sized condensing boiler.
(They had done condensing boilers for some years, but only large
industrial ones.) The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian
company they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time. Other domestic ones
in the UK at the time were mostly aluminium heat exchangers which
quickly corroded, or convention boilers with later design mods to
add a secondary condensing heat exchanger, which could not operate
as flexibly, and turned out to be very unreliable and vanished from
the market quite quickly.

The Keston was relatively simple, designed as a condenser from the
outset, and quite cheap. There were a number of design issues, none
major, and Keston did fix them through the sales life of the boiler.

The Eco-Hometec (?) appeared afterwards, which Andy Hall fitted.
This was a more complex boiler capable of more automation, but it
cost 3 times as much. I might have gone for it if it had been
around a year earlier.
Is it true that the Keston is a fairly noisy boiler? In my primary
school they have a Keston 170 which you could hear all over the school
when it was running, a loud whistling sound. AFAIK it is still in
operation, installed around 2001.


--
David

In message , Mike Harrison
writes
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

It strikes me that pretty much every manufacturer has some users with
horror stories, but of course
most of the reviews are from dissatisfied users as happy people won't
often bother posting
information, and without any indications of the installed base, a small
number of samples is not a
statistically reliable indicator.

There are clearly a few obvious 'to-avoids' with so many reports of
problems, bad service, failure
to honour warranties etc. that they can easily be ruled out, e.g.
Ferrolli ( many reports of bad
customer service and poor parts availability) , Ideal ISAR 35 (100
reviews with 1-star avarage) ,

Any boiler with an ISAR / ICOS pcb in should be avoided at all costs

I got through over 1000 ICOS transformers last year

but most of the rest are too far below the noise to be a useful guide.

Although there are a few comments from installers who have installed a
large number of a particular
model, I suspect that after an initial period they may not see a lot of
the longer term problems as
users will more likely be talking to the manufacturer's
service/warranty people.

The expected lifetime of the average condensing boiler is IIRC 5-7 years
ATM, so don't expect reliability on any front

There is the option of using a bit of reverse logic here, as some of the
less reputable manufacturers are having to offer extended warranties, so
there is the argument that you are better off going for a less desirable
make which gives you the peace of mind of X years suppport


Seems to me that apart from some specific models with particular design
flaws, probably the most
important thing for long term peace of mind is how good the
manufacturer is at providing spares and
support, combined with ease of repair and parts cost.

One of the many holes in the drivel argument is that some of his
"preferred" boilers are not well known and spares are not so easily
available. Also some fitters don't want to touch them as they don't
understand them


If I were looking for a kitchen appliance, I know that going to Bosch,
Miele etc. would give me a
pretty good chance of getting something reliable at a premium price,
however I've yet to find if
there are any comparable 'quality brands' when it comes to boilers.

I can do most repairs myself, and not at all worried about
electrical/electronics as that's
something I know inside out.

I shall file that for future reference, I might even post that on the
door at work

(ties in with an anecdote from yesterday, but it's a bit late to expand
on now)


So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it
if costs more?




--
geoff