In message , Alan
Deane writes
On 02/02/2012 11:10, Mike Harrison wrote:
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around
So from this perspective, any recommendations, good or to-avoid for a
~30KW condensing Combi where
reliability, servicability and manufacturer service are good, even it
if costs more?



Vaillant or Worcester-Bosch gets my vote.

I used to recommend Worcester-bosch,but they seem to be going downhill
now



--
geoff

In message , Mr Pounder
writes

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
.. .
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler, spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years ago.


Baxi now own Potterton

Many fitters now refuse to fit them

poor build quality and really bad tech backup



--
geoff

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Mr Pounder wrote:

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
...
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent an evening looking around for reviews, comments etc at the few
sites that review this sort of thing. This site seemed to have about
the most reviews http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.
Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years
ago.

Potterton were amongst the best once.

They were crap well before they were taken over

Then got taken over and became the
worst. Names don't mean much these days.


Yes, they (same as british gas etc) trade on their previous good
reputation

--
geoff

In article ,
gremlin_95 writes:
Is it true that the Keston is a fairly noisy boiler? In my primary
school they have a Keston 170 which you could hear all over the school
when it was running, a loud whistling sound. AFAIK it is still in
operation, installed around 2001.

Mine isn't noisy. It's in the bathroom, and you can't hear it
at all if the shower or wall fan heater are on. You can hear
it if there's no other noise when it's modulated above about
30%. At low modulation, you would have to be quite close to
hear it.

However, your 170 is one of their commercial boilers, not
intended for domestic use, and a quite different design.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
John Rumm writes:

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Keston, really?

I have one and it's been OK given that I can DIY fix it (I did install
it after all), but it would have been unsuitable for, say, my parents,
whose Potterton Suprema has provided a more trouble-free service;-)

Is anyone other than me still running a Keston C25? It was quite
popular here when I installed it because Keston supported DIY
installers (in those days, condensing boilers were only installed
by DIY installers, councils, and housing associations). However,
my impression is that they had all died after about 5 years.

The current Keston C36 (?) only ever gets a bad press, as far as I've
noticed.

Have you seen the price of their fans?


--
geoff

In message , Tony Bryer
writes
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:43:16 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
The Celsius 25 design came from a hugarian company
they took over, IIRC. It was one of the few in UK which had
a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time.

Romanian I think. My recollection is that the heat exchanger is a
an alloy lump with end plates bolted on (like a car cylinder head),
gaskets a potential weakness.

The motors on their old fans came from bulgaria


--
geoff

On 02/02/2012 21:43, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

a stainless steel heat exchanger at the time. Other domestic ones
in the UK at the time were mostly aluminium heat exchangers which
quickly corroded, or convention boilers with later design mods to
add a secondary condensing heat exchanger, which could not operate
as flexibly, and turned out to be very unreliable and vanished from
the market quite quickly.

BIASI still seem to be punting designs like that... Still for the price
I suppose you can buy a couple and keep a spare!

The Keston was relatively simple, designed as a condenser from the
outset, and quite cheap. There were a number of design issues, none
major, and Keston did fix them through the sales life of the boiler.

The Eco-Hometec (?) appeared afterwards, which Andy Hall fitted.
This was a more complex boiler capable of more automation, but it
cost 3 times as much. I might have gone for it if it had been
around a year earlier.



--
Cheers,

John.

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In message m,
"dennis@home" writes


"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:F_Gdnc68mbccMrfSnZ2dnUVZ8m2dnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...

Geoff will be along shortly to give you his take (his company
refurbishes PCBs and Fans etc for many boilers - and hence gets a
much better view of the commonly failing models).

How does geof know what the failure rate is?
He doesn't know how many boilers are installed, just how many he gets
orders for.
He may get 10 bad boilers where only 100 are installed and get 1000
better boilers where 1 million are fitted.
His figures would show the opposite of what is actually true.

You're actually more or less right for a change denboi

What you've typed above is not far off what I tell anyone who asks what
I recommend


At best he could comment on the observed quality of the PCBs but not on
the fault rate unless he gets a lot of returns for his own stuff where
he knows the quantity installed.

It's not "my own stuff" dennis, we're repairing badly designed pcbs from
the manufacturers - we don't modify them

For example, I occasionally get Suprima pcbs which develop faults within
the warranty period - thats life, its a Suprima pcb - you can't, as they
say, polish a turd

considering that we turned over a bit over £8000 in the past two days,
there are bound to be a few where other faults develop


--
geoff

On 02/02/2012 18:21, dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Geoff will be along shortly to give you his take (his company
refurbishes PCBs and Fans etc for many boilers - and hence gets a much
better view of the commonly failing models).

How does geof know what the failure rate is?

In hard numbers, he probably does not - at lease not in all cases.
However he does get to talk to lots of installers and repairers and
hence that is quite a reasonable way of forming a more balanced picture
of what models are causing problems, what models are being recommended
and fitted etc than is available to you or I.

In some cases where a customer is a local authority or housing
association, and they tell you they have fitted 5000 of model X in the
last three years, then you get a very good feel for a *subset* of the
failure rate (i.e. that attributable to the subsystems you specialise in)

You can also draw conclusions from comparing returns on one model with a
previous / successor. If a new one comes out, and six months later you
find you are getting far more of those to fix than the repair rate for
the previous model which had been on the market unchanged for five
years, you get a good indication there is a problem with the replacement
etc.

Given there is no central database one can go an inspect with hard data,
its better than pure guess work.

If you ask your favoured installer, they will probably only recommend
from the small handful of models they routinely fit - and quite often
that is more down to brand loyalty and how easy they are to install
than being based on objective reliability observations.

Got any better suggestions?


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 02/02/2012 22:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation

Overrated.

WB was for sometime frequently recommended,

Now garbage.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Viessman is good, Keston is now not much better than scrap metal. The
best is ATAG. The ATAG EC325C has an integrated gassaver and weather
compensation.

Funny, a few moments ago it was intergas...

And what do you base your recommendation on dribble?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/02/2012 00:39, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/02/2012 22:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation

Overrated.

WB was for sometime frequently recommended,

Now garbage.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Viessman is good, Keston is now not much better than scrap metal. The
best is ATAG. The ATAG EC325C has an integrated gassaver and weather
compensation.

Funny, a few moments ago it was intergas...

And what do you base your recommendation on dribble?


Well, if he describes a 2 stroke oil burning engine as non-polluting
what do you expect?

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:53:10 +0000 (UTC) Andrew Gabriel wrote :
I thought it was one of yours which burned out its heat
exchanger, burning the cabinet case? Maybe it was someone
else's?

No, that was my mum's. Heat exchanger replaced after four years
(service missed so Keston wouldn't replace under 5-year
warranty) - as said elsewhere this didn't come cheap (£700 inc
labour IIRC).
Due to continuing unreliability (internal exchanger leak losing
pressure and locking out?) she got it replaced by a W-B last
summer. This wouldn't keep running for more than a week or two
at a time before locking out. Tracked down to the 'professional'
installer not realising that this model didn't have an internal
bypass and on a S-plan system you need to have an external one
(which was there for the Keston but he took it out). Haven't
heard any more for a couple of months so hopefully now all OK.
If not, at least it's not down to me any more.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

In article ,
geoff wrote:

[Snip]

The expected lifetime of the average condensing boiler is IIRC 5-7 years
ATM, so don't expect reliability on any front

the Kestons at our theatre are 13 years old.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Mr Pounder
writes

"Mike Harrison" wrote in message
. ..
Looking around for candidates to replace my 15-odd year old boiler,
spent
an evening looking around
for reviews, comments etc at the few sites that review this sort of
thing.
This site seemed to have about the most reviews
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews247100.html

I understand that Baxi are very good.

Baxi have been around for a very long time; I used to fit them 45 years
ago.

Baxi now own Potterton

Many fitters now refuse to fit them

poor build quality and really bad tech backup

Although not relevant now, PoxiBatterton have been taken over by Remeha, a
Dutch company who make Broag (Avantaplus) boilers. Quality is expected to
rise. Probably Dutch models rebadged and assembled in the UK.

Worcester Bosch are owned by Bosch, but tend to act independently to a large
degree, although the use many of the same parts. Bosch bought Buderus as
well, a small player in the UK, who I belive have withdrawn the gas boiler
but not oil (not too sure)

Vaillant own Glow Worm, but GW are not the same quality, but getting there.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/02/2012 22:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation

Overrated.

WB was for sometime frequently recommended,

Now garbage.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Viessman is good, Keston is now not much better than scrap metal. The
best is ATAG. The ATAG EC325C has an integrated gassaver and weather
compensation.

Funny,

It is best you keep quiet as the OP is wanting proper advice, not the
ramblings of DIYers. First port of call in boilers, as of now, is Intergas.
They do not cover all of the rerquirements, but most. Want a high output
combi? Go for the ATAG 51kW. Few match it, few make one with that output.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...

Well, if he describes a 2 stroke oil burning engine as non-polluting what
do you expect?

Another idiot. Burning synthetic oil dedicated to that task meets emissions.
Look at the Orbital system which is used on bikes, boats, etc. Go an ask in
the pensioners drop in centre, they may tell you.

"geoff" wrote in message
...

The expected lifetime of the average condensing boiler is IIRC 5-7 years
ATM, so don't expect reliability on any front

They can last for ever if fitted properly in a "clean" system and maintained
properly. Ignorant jobbing, bathroom changing "plumbers" rip them out
because they do not know how to put them right, which would cost a fraction
of a new boiler.

One of the many holes in the drivel argument is that some of his
"preferred" boilers are not well known and spares are not so easily
available. Also some fitters don't want to touch them as they don't
understand them

Intergas are making great inroads in the UK. They have been here for decades
under the Atmos rebadge. Parts are easily available in all major parts
outlets. ATAG are easy for parts. The boilers are just as simple as any
other. ATAG and Intergas rarely go wrong. ATAG have service agents. You
don't want a dumb plumber looking at it, as he would say rip it out and put
in PoxiBatterton as he makes a good mark-up on it. Merc cars are best
serviced by Merc agents, same with quality boilers.

Fitters do not want to learn another setup procedure from the LCD display.
Hence they use one they can understand because they pretty thick.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
geoff wrote:

[Snip]

The expected lifetime of the average condensing boiler is IIRC 5-7 years
ATM, so don't expect reliability on any front

the Kestons at our theatre are 13 years old.

5-7 years is rather exaggerated. Condensing boilers are no different to
regular boilers. All they have extra is a condensate drain.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Another idiot. Burning synthetic oil dedicated to that task meets
emissions. Look at the Orbital system which is used on bikes, boats,
etc. Go an ask in the pensioners drop in centre, they may tell you.

Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars. The orbital
engine isn't used on cars - despite all the hype when it came out, and
millions spend on development. Most will see a parallel there...

--
*Acupuncture is a jab well done*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Condensing boilers are no different to
regular boilers. All they have extra is a condensate drain.

Good grief. Even an intelligent 10 year old knows different.

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Condensing boilers are no different to
regular boilers. All they have extra is a condensate drain.

Good grief. Even an intelligent 10 year old knows different.

To what?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Another idiot. Burning synthetic oil dedicated to that task meets
emissions. Look at the Orbital system which is used on bikes, boats,
etc. Go an ask in the pensioners drop in centre, they may tell you.

Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital
engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image stopped
it being used - by the marketing men.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Condensing boilers are no different to
regular boilers. All they have extra is a condensate drain.

Good grief. Even an intelligent 10 year old knows different.

To what?

If I add a condensate drain to an old boiler it becomes a condensing one?

Excellent - will save a lot of money.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image
stopped it being used - by the marketing men.

Image? You think the average car driver cares what type of engine is in
use?

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Just why do you think every car maker in the world sticks to four stokes,
given the paper advantages of some other configurations? It's simple -
those advantages are only on paper.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image
stopped it being used - by the marketing men.

Image? You think the average car driver cares what type of engine is in
use?

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Almost all large diesels as used in ships are two stroke. They also have
the highest fuel efficiencies of all internal combustion engines,
currently over 50%. Two stroke engines scale up better than four stroke
engines.

Two stroke engines as used in motorcycles and cars are built as cheaply
as possible, so they need to use a fuel/ oil mix. They could be designed
not to, but that adds complexity, cost and weight.

Just why do you think every car maker in the world sticks to four stokes,
given the paper advantages of some other configurations? It's simple -
those advantages are only on paper.

At the sizes used in motor vehicles. At other sizes, other cycles work
better.

People don't generally use four stroke engines either for very small or
very large applications.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 03/02/2012 13:03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image
stopped it being used - by the marketing men.

Image? You think the average car driver cares what type of engine is in
use?

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Dribble will haplessly ignore hydrocarbon emissions if it gets in the
way of his argument.

Just why do you think every car maker in the world sticks to four stokes,
given the paper advantages of some other configurations? It's simple -
those advantages are only on paper.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Almost all large diesels as used in ships are two stroke. They also have
the highest fuel efficiencies of all internal combustion engines,
currently over 50%. Two stroke engines scale up better than four stroke
engines.

Large diesels used for this sort of application aren't comparable to what
is suitable for road use. For a start, they run at or near a constant
speed. 2 stoke supercharged diesels were once used on road trucks by
Commer - but not now. Just about all common trucks and cars are four
stroke.

Two stroke engines as used in motorcycles and cars are built as cheaply
as possible, so they need to use a fuel/ oil mix. They could be designed
not to, but that adds complexity, cost and weight.

As much as all the complicated valve gear used on a modern two stroke?

Just why do you think every car maker in the world sticks to four
stokes, given the paper advantages of some other configurations? It's
simple - those advantages are only on paper.

At the sizes used in motor vehicles. At other sizes, other cycles work
better.

Not only size.

People don't generally use four stroke engines either for very small or
very large applications.

Efficiency and emissions don't much matter for very small engines. Weight
may be crucial, though. And of course cost. Most very large engines run at
a near constant speed.

--
*Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Almost all large diesels as used in ships are two stroke. They also have
the highest fuel efficiencies of all internal combustion engines,
currently over 50%. Two stroke engines scale up better than four stroke
engines.

Large diesels used for this sort of application aren't comparable to what
is suitable for road use. For a start, they run at or near a constant
speed. 2 stoke supercharged diesels were once used on road trucks by
Commer - but not now. Just about all common trucks and cars are four
stroke.

Two stroke engines as used in motorcycles and cars are built as cheaply
as possible, so they need to use a fuel/ oil mix. They could be designed
not to, but that adds complexity, cost and weight.

As much as all the complicated valve gear used on a modern two stroke?

Assuming you mis-typed two for four there, yes, as not using the
crankcase to compress the charge leads to things like blowers to get the
charge into the cylinders to start with. That's why the Commer
two-strokes you mentioned had to use a supercharger. The penalty is less
if you're already using a turbocharger, though.

People don't generally use four stroke engines either for very small or
very large applications.

Efficiency and emissions don't much matter for very small engines. Weight
may be crucial, though. And of course cost. Most very large engines run at
a near constant speed.

Fuel efficiency isn't vital, no, nor is emmission control, though power
per gramme can be very important. As for constant speed, marine diesels
work over about a three to one speed range (60 - 200 rpm) at pretty
constant efficiency levels, which is wider than most automotive engines
nowadays. Most of the ones I use day to day have a useful power band
from 1250 to 1800 rpm, with maximum fuel efficiency being in a quite
narrow band centred on 1500rpm.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Most of the ones I use day to day have a useful power band
from 1250 to 1800 rpm, with maximum fuel efficiency being in a quite
narrow band centred on 1500rpm.

A decent car diesel will have a useful power band from about 1500 - 4500
rpm.

I'd love to see the efficiency figures for a large ship diesel. Surely
most of the time it will run at a near constant speed once on the open sea?

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/02/2012 10:53, Doctor Drivel wrote:

It is best you keep quiet as the OP is wanting proper advice, not the
ramblings of DIYers.

Since he asked the question in a DIY group its fairly safe to say that
is exactly what he did want.

snip shilling of this months boiler with best kickback


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

It is best you keep quiet as the OP is wanting proper advice, not the
ramblings of DIYers. First port of call in boilers, as of now, is
Intergas. They do not cover all of the rerquirements, but most. Want a
high output combi? Go for the ATAG 51kW. Few match it, few make one with that output.

Actually, that's the first combi that I might be prepared to let through my
front door, IF its construction & quality are up to scratch. The design is
way more sensible than the usual combi design and should in theory make it
much more reliable. (it has two separate heat exchanging coils, one for
CH, one for HW. No diverted valves needed).

Tim

In article
,
Tim wrote:
(it has two separate heat exchanging coils, one for
CH, one for HW. No diverted valves needed).

The diverter valve on my old system was still working fine when I replaced
the boiler for a system one which has its own. It was over 25 years old.

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Most of the ones I use day to day have a useful power band
from 1250 to 1800 rpm, with maximum fuel efficiency being in a quite
narrow band centred on 1500rpm.

A decent car diesel will have a useful power band from about 1500 - 4500
rpm.

I'll admit that the ones I use are a tad larger than that. Look for the
Volvo DH12C engine specifications, although the Scania equivalent isn't
too different. The narrow power band is a by-product of the emmissions
control requirements. Valve and injection timing are both critical, and
the former can't easily be varied while the engine is running, despite
the attempts at VVT by certain makers in the past.

The cars we have will indeed rev up to 4000, but aren't happy doing it.
Again, the most economical cruising speed is at about 1700 rpm, which
has been optimised by the makers to be at 80mph in top, 56mph in fourth
and 30 in third, to get the best figures for the EU consumption tests.

I'd love to see the efficiency figures for a large ship diesel. Surely
most of the time it will run at a near constant speed once on the open sea?

Yes, and also at constant power, given the direct coupling to the
propellers. The makers all state 60 - 200 rpm as the operating speeds,
though, without mentioning efficiency at the lower speeds. Even in the
1950s, they were doing over 40% thermal efficiency at best speed/ power,
and are now up to 54% for the best of them. Train diesels aren't all
that far behind, which leads to the interesting thought that unless
you're generating your electricity by nuclear power, a diesel locomotive
may well generate less pollution overall than an electric one.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 03/02/2012 16:55, Tim wrote:
"Doctor wrote:

It is best you keep quiet as the OP is wanting proper advice, not the
ramblings of DIYers. First port of call in boilers, as of now, is
Intergas. They do not cover all of the rerquirements, but most. Want a
high output combi? Go for the ATAG 51kW. Few match it, few make one with that output.
Actually, that's the first combi that I might be prepared to let through my
front door, IF its construction& quality are up to scratch. The design is
way more sensible than the usual combi design and should in theory make it
much more reliable. (it has two separate heat exchanging coils, one for
CH, one for HW. No diverted valves needed).

Tim
ATAG boilers seem to be held in high esteem by a lot of installers.

--
David

On 03/02/2012 16:19, John Williamson wrote:
Assuming you mis-typed two for four there, yes, as not using the
crankcase to compress the charge leads to things like blowers to get the
charge into the cylinders to start with. That's why the Commer
two-strokes you mentioned had to use a supercharger. The penalty is less
if you're already using a turbocharger, though.

Starting an engine that relies on a turbocharger must be interesting...
more so than a supercharged one. Though I suppose you could have both,
or a compressed air tank.

Small boat engines are all going 4-stroke BTW, the emissions regulations
are being applied to smaller engines. I've heard people cursing the
extra weight of an outboard you have to hand carry.

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
On 03/02/2012 16:19, John Williamson wrote:
Assuming you mis-typed two for four there, yes, as not using the
crankcase to compress the charge leads to things like blowers to get the
charge into the cylinders to start with. That's why the Commer
two-strokes you mentioned had to use a supercharger. The penalty is less
if you're already using a turbocharger, though.

Starting an engine that relies on a turbocharger must be interesting...
more so than a supercharged one. Though I suppose you could have both,
or a compressed air tank.

The big ones are all compressed air start. I've not played with anything
smaller that didn't use crankcase compression or a reed valve.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image
stopped it being used - by the marketing men.

Image? You think the average car driver cares what type of engine is in
use?

The marketing men did.

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.

It is.

Their fuel consumption is also poor.

Not so. They are half the size ans weight.

Just why do you think every car maker in the world sticks to four stokes,

Because they are Luddites who are a part of near cartel.

Now you know.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Almost all large diesels as used in ships are two stroke. They also have
the highest fuel efficiencies of all internal combustion engines,
currently over 50%. Two stroke engines scale up better than four stroke
engines.

Large diesels used for this sort of application aren't comparable to what
is suitable for road use.

There are two-stroke diseel trucks. The Commer TS-3 was two-stroke.

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 03/02/2012 13:03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
Bikes and boats don't have to meet the same emissions as cars.

But not far off. They are a world away from the 1950s two-strokes.

The orbital engine isn't used on cars

More to the lawmower image of the two-stoke it was not used in cars.
Chrysler did some R&D on two-strokes for cars and came up with a direct
injection with normal pressurised oil crankshaft engine. Only image
stopped it being used - by the marketing men.

Image? You think the average car driver cares what type of engine is in
use?

It's not possible to make a two stroke meet emissions regs in practice.
Their fuel consumption is also poor. This is why they're only used for
purposes where their low production costs outweigh this. In countries
where it doesn't matter.

Dribble

Go and ask in the pensioners drop-in centre.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/02/2012 22:10, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Vaillant seem to be building a good reputation

Overrated.

WB was for sometime frequently recommended,

Now garbage.

Others in this group have had good results with Viseman, Man Eco
Hometec, & Keston.

Viessman is good, Keston is now not much better than scrap metal. The
best is ATAG. The ATAG EC325C has an integrated gassaver and weather
compensation.

Funny,

It is best you keep quiet as the OP is wanting proper advice, not the
ramblings of DIYers. First port of call in boilers, as of now, is
Intergas.

1) Oil?

He said gas.