God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

I know a private sale would be cheapest, but also most high-risk -
however can that be realistically cancelled out by paying the AA £150ish
for an inspection, or is that a waste of time? I do know all about HPI
checking etc.

Or is she safest going for the poorest value-for-money option - a
franchised dealer locally (to me, while home for Xmas), presumably with
a reasonable warranty and so she could take it in to another franchised
dealer (in her home town) if there were problems?

An independent "Arthur Dayley" operator, with whatever 'warranty' that
may or may not provide (with or without an AA inspection?)

Any advice much welcomed.
David

On Dec 18, 3:36*pm, Lobster wrote:
God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. *Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. *I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
* *Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

I know a private sale would be cheapest, but also most high-risk -
however can that be realistically cancelled out by paying the AA £150ish
for an inspection, or is that a waste of time? *I do know all about HPI
checking etc.

Or is she safest going for the poorest value-for-money option - a
franchised dealer locally (to me, while home for Xmas), presumably with
a reasonable warranty and so she could take it in to another franchised
dealer (in her home town) if there were problems?

An independent "Arthur Dayley" operator, with whatever 'warranty' that
may or may not provide (with or without an AA inspection?)

Any advice much welcomed.
David

Dave
Been there just too many times now - No 1 daughter and son several
times each and I did get it wrong with a cheapy from what I should
have spotted was a dodgy dealer; fortunately someone wrote it off for
my son, so there wasn't too much money damage there.

At the price range you're quoting, I would approach some of the bigger
dealers who will get, from my experience, perfectly adequate trade-ins
from little old ladies, and are more than happy to get a bit more for
them from a punter than putting them to the auction (that's the cars,
by the way, not the 'little old ladies'). My daughter has had two
good cars this way.

Son's finances are at the banger level and that's always much more of
a gamble!

Rob

Lobster wrote:

God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

I know a private sale would be cheapest, but also most high-risk -
however can that be realistically cancelled out by paying the AA £150ish
for an inspection, or is that a waste of time? I do know all about HPI
checking etc.

Or is she safest going for the poorest value-for-money option - a
franchised dealer locally (to me, while home for Xmas), presumably with
a reasonable warranty and so she could take it in to another franchised
dealer (in her home town) if there were problems?

An independent "Arthur Dayley" operator, with whatever 'warranty' that
may or may not provide (with or without an AA inspection?)

There's no universal solution.

My history:

1st paid for car - Austin Maxi, few hundred, private sale, lots of stuff
wrong, fixed in one go at a friendly honest mechanic in York. After that,
was a decently well behaved beast. Sold for a couple of hundred couple of
years later.

2nd - Austin Maestro pertol. About a grand, private sale, leaking twin carbs
rebuilt by me for 10 quid's worth of gaskets and retuned to perfection.
Gearbox was crappy being ex-london car (2nd syncro was half dead) but after
draining, flushing with diesel and refilling with Millers synthetic it was
very well behaved over all operating temperatures and 2nd's problem was
barely noticeable. Generally well behaved for a few years except when the
oil switch blew ****ing oil everywhere.

3rd - Maestro diesel, 3k, from a van seller, extremely well behaved for
years and 60mpg. Major problem, turbo blew after a few years but worth the
cost to fix.

4th - Daewoo Lanos, 2nd hand, Daewoo dealer. Boring, mostly reliable, apart
from when the timing crank sensor failed, oh and a new starter.

5th - VW Touran. New, discounted as an end-of-year-series job lot. Nice car,
but actually been the biggest PITA for stupid electronics going wrong. VM
are not what they used to be.

6th and concurrent with 5th - BMW Mini (SWMBO). Nice car, reliable, couple
of dumb electronics problems fixed under warranty.


The only advice I can give is:

Private sale - will be cheaper, Parker's will give price indicators and
things to look out for. Look for known problems on particular year groups or
subseries or engine models. See it in daylight, and take a mate or book the
AA in who know how to look for problems. Take it for a decent drive and look
out for wobblyness, bad noises and other tell tales. It's not as easy to
discern a lemon these days as you cannot sound out the electronics.

Dealer - well, you might get a guarantee for a year but there is no
certainty that you will not be buying a piece of crap over a private sale.

A mate of mine who could half rebuild a car ina weekend used to buy 100
quid buckets, get an MOT (legit) and run it to death for a year then sell
it and repeat. Worked well with old 70's cars that were easy to work on and
the parts are cheap.

It's a real minefield and 3k is a painful point because you are not
guaranteed success but you lose a lot with a mistake - and even an expert
could not guarantee a good buy. My advice is to first decide on a make and
model that is plentiful and has cheap parts, eg older Ford and NOT a Toyota,
for example.




--
Tim Watts

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:36:25 +0000, Lobster wrote:
God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About ?3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

Before looking at cars in that price range, your daughter should seriously
look at what the insurance is going to cost. That may be enough to set
some serious limits on the class/type of car she could buy.
Only after she's done _her_ homework (it's a life lesson, not one you
should do for her) is it time to start looking at autotrader's website
to get some realistic ideas of what she can get for her money.

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

I know a private sale would be cheapest, but also most high-risk -
however can that be realistically cancelled out by paying the AA £150ish
for an inspection, or is that a waste of time? I do know all about HPI
checking etc.

Thing is that most cars in this sort of price range are bought by the bomb
site dealer at auction. They then give it a clean - at best- and stick on
their margin. At least 500 quid. Forget any ideas that it is thoroughly
checked and serviced before sale. The cars will mainly be trade ins to
'better' dealers who don't sell bangers, so they dispose of them either at
auction or direct to a firm they know deals in that sort of car.

So you could short circuit one stage by buying at auction. Look for a car
with a decent history - service records, old MOTs, few owners and honest
looking, not tarted up for sale. The dirtier the better, often. And set
aside the money you're saving for possible repairs/replacements. But do
check the obvious like signs of damage, worn tyres, car not starting
easily etc. You could even arrange your own warranty via the RAC etc - but
I wouldn't bother, as they too make a large profit on such things.

--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/12/2011 18:29, root wrote:
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:36:25 +0000, Lobster wrote:
God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About ?3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

Before looking at cars in that price range, your daughter should seriously
look at what the insurance is going to cost. That may be enough to set
some serious limits on the class/type of car she could buy.
Only after she's done _her_ homework (it's a life lesson, not one you
should do for her) is it time to start looking at autotrader's website
to get some realistic ideas of what she can get for her money.

Good advice about insurance.

I've bought several cars via the autotrader web site:, once you've
identified candidate models you can look over the whole country to get a
feel for the market, then home in more locally. I've had a couple of
good buys from semi-retired people who said they pick up trade-ins from
larger franchise dealers who don't want older or other-make stuff on
their forecourts.

Private will be cheaper than dealers, it's a bit of a lottery either
way. At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy. Three
months should be plenty of time for a real problem to show up. Make sure
you get 12 months MOT from a dealer.

In article ,
Newshound wrote:
At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy.

You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in reverse.
With rather poor odds.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 18, 3:36*pm, Lobster wrote:
God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. *Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. *I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
* *Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?

- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc)
- I have little confidence in my own ability to avoid a total dog and
source her a good deal
- she lives an hour or so away from me so if I go to a local dealer and
it turns out to be a pup - not ideal

I know a private sale would be cheapest, but also most high-risk -
however can that be realistically cancelled out by paying the AA £150ish
for an inspection, or is that a waste of time? *I do know all about HPI
checking etc.

Or is she safest going for the poorest value-for-money option - a
franchised dealer locally (to me, while home for Xmas), presumably with
a reasonable warranty and so she could take it in to another franchised
dealer (in her home town) if there were problems?

An independent "Arthur Dayley" operator, with whatever 'warranty' that
may or may not provide (with or without an AA inspection?)

Any advice much welcomed.
David


I'd say first that paying 3k for a car is pointless, you wont really
gain anything significant of genuine value over paying 1k. And a
purchase with some risk for 1k is a far better prospect that ditto
with 3k.

If youre going to get it professtionally inspected, an MOT is much
cheaper, and checks most things, though not all. The MOT becomes a
worthwhile gamble if youre not paying the 3k. And it as near as
ensures the car is roadworthy, other inspections dont.

In this price bracket, dealers sell the exact same cars that private
sellers do, they just sell them for a lot more money, and slap on a
guarantee that's a game in practice. My limited experience with them
is that theyre not worth visiting.

Whatever option you take, there is risk. Accept it, choose your bets
wisely, and you should get good vehicles at low prices most of the
time. Many people chase the illusion of the guaranteed good car for
this sort of money, it doesnt exist, and they wind up paying far more
for what is in reality nothing more.

Finally if you have a friend that knows their stuff, you can get some
bargains from auctions. The odds however are risky, you dont get to
drive it, so the price needs to be keen enough that if its a lemon you
can pass it on with no regret.


NT

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Newshound wrote:
At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy.

You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in
reverse. With rather poor odds.

You could save some money by taking out a policy that does not involve the
dealer.

I have never bought any policy. I prefer to use the money saved by not
buying one to swap the timing belt ASAP after buying a vehicle that I do not
know the history of.

--
Adam

On 18/12/2011 19:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy.

You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in reverse.
With rather poor odds.

Yes, indeed. But, if the dealer isn't all that local it's a quick and
easy way of reducing the hassle if a fault appears quickly and leaves
you chasing the trading standards route. And AA inspection takes extra
time.

Incidentally, now that more police vehicles have ANPR hooked up to MID,
it's probably worth talking to your insurer before going to see
something which you might drive home. In the old days, you weren't
likely to be picked up while doing this, and even if you were you could
say the existing insurance covers vehicles you don't own, and that you'd
be doing the logbook paperwork at the same time as the insurance
transfer. These days, a "hit" on the computer virtually makes a case.
Said with some feeling as I was stopped when driving wife's new SH car
after sorting the insurance because, between the broker and the
insurance company, it took a couple of days to get it registered on the
MID. Luckily it was in the daytime and they were able to phone the
broker. If I hadn't had my own "any car" insurance the buggers were
still thinking about seizing it.

In message , Huge
writes
On 2011-12-18, Lobster wrote:

Any advice much welcomed.

Get it inspected. AA or RAC. If the dealer is troublesome ("Oh, that's
not necessary, Sir"), or treats the inspector like ****, walk away.

If there's anything at all in the report unsatisfactory, walk away.

I think that's about the best advice - anything dodgy, walk away. Also
be patient. There are plenty of other cars around the corner.
--
hugh

hugh wrote:

In message , Huge
writes
On 2011-12-18, Lobster wrote:

Any advice much welcomed.

Get it inspected. AA or RAC. If the dealer is troublesome ("Oh, that's
not necessary, Sir"), or treats the inspector like ****, walk away.

If there's anything at all in the report unsatisfactory, walk away.

I think that's about the best advice - anything dodgy, walk away. Also
be patient. There are plenty of other cars around the corner.

+1

Never be pushed. There are a practically infinite number of cars on sale and
always will be.

--
Tim Watts

On 18/12/2011 20:06, NT wrote:
If youre going to get it professtionally inspected, an MOT is much
cheaper, and checks most things, though not all. The MOT becomes a
worthwhile gamble if youre not paying the 3k. And it as near as
ensures the car is roadworthy, other inspections dont.

If it fails the MOT, you don't buy it. However the seller is now in the
position that he now has an MOT failure on his books. He's not going to
like that....

--
Adrian C

On Dec 18, 11:18*pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 18/12/2011 20:06, NT wrote:

If youre going to get it professtionally inspected, an MOT is much
cheaper, and checks most things, though not all. The MOT becomes a
worthwhile gamble if youre not paying the 3k. And it as near as
ensures the car is roadworthy, other inspections dont.

If it fails the MOT, you don't buy it. However the seller is now in the
position that he now has an MOT failure on his books. He's not going to
like that....

And thus he won't agree to it. And so all are happy.

In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:
You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in
reverse. With rather poor odds.

You could save some money by taking out a policy that does not involve
the dealer.

Yes.

I have never bought any policy. I prefer to use the money saved by not
buying one to swap the timing belt ASAP after buying a vehicle that I do
not know the history of.

Yes. But it's not too difficult to get a car with good history for 3 grand
at an auction. Or as you imply, put any money saved over retail into a pot
for initial servcing/repairs.

--
*Too many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Newshound wrote:
Yes, indeed. But, if the dealer isn't all that local it's a quick and
easy way of reducing the hassle if a fault appears quickly and leaves
you chasing the trading standards route.

My experience of such a policy (from a secondhand only car dealer) wasn't
good. They had designated repairers, and insisted they were used. Miles
away. And there were considerable costs not covered by the policy.

Buying secondhand from a main dealer will usually give a better warranty
- backed by the car maker. But not on a 3 grand car.

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian C wrote:
On 18/12/2011 20:06, NT wrote:
If youre going to get it professtionally inspected, an MOT is much
cheaper, and checks most things, though not all. The MOT becomes a
worthwhile gamble if youre not paying the 3k. And it as near as
ensures the car is roadworthy, other inspections dont.

If it fails the MOT, you don't buy it. However the seller is now in the
position that he now has an MOT failure on his books. He's not going to
like that....

He'll just phone up a mate and get a new one...

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 18, 11:18*pm, Adrian C wrote:
On 18/12/2011 20:06, NT wrote:

If youre going to get it professtionally inspected, an MOT is much
cheaper, and checks most things, though not all. The MOT becomes a
worthwhile gamble if youre not paying the 3k. And it as near as
ensures the car is roadworthy, other inspections dont.

If it fails the MOT, you don't buy it. However the seller is now in the
position that he now has an MOT failure on his books. He's not going to
like that....

If it fails, youre in a better position as a buyer, as long as you
know what it costs to fix it.


NT

On 18/12/2011 20:25, ARWadsworth wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy.

You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in
reverse. With rather poor odds.

You could save some money by taking out a policy that does not involve the
dealer.


I tend to do this - about £300 for a sporty car. But don't take the
online quote. Leave it and IME they phone you back within a couple of
hours/days with a 30%ish 'discount'.

Rob

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:06:44 -0800 (PST), NT
wrote:

On Dec 18, 3:36*pm, Lobster wrote:
God I hate it - as far as I'm concerned, it's right up with there with
death, divorce and redundancy as a major life stressor. *Probably why I
always keep cars for years before getting rid.

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. *I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
* *Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?
[snip]

I'd say first that paying 3k for a car is pointless, you wont really
gain anything significant of genuine value over paying 1k. And a
purchase with some risk for 1k is a far better prospect that ditto
with 3k.

Good advice.

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
I'd say first that paying 3k for a car is pointless, you wont really
gain anything significant of genuine value over paying 1k. And a
purchase with some risk for 1k is a far better prospect that ditto
with 3k.

Good advice.

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

Nonsense. People want a different car for the same reasons as they replace
anything.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

So every 4 year old car is finished? I've got news for you...

--
*No sentence fragments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:45:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Mark wrote:
I'd say first that paying 3k for a car is pointless, you wont really
gain anything significant of genuine value over paying 1k. And a
purchase with some risk for 1k is a far better prospect that ditto
with 3k.

Good advice.

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

Nonsense. People want a different car for the same reasons as they replace
anything.

And if the old one is still OK then they keep it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

So every 4 year old car is finished? I've got news for you...

It's a shame you can't read properly.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:37:28 +0000, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

********, people get rid of an "old" car because it needs it's first
MOT and/or the warranty is expiring and/or the PCP/lease hire or WHY
is coming to an end. Not to mention that having an "old" car on the
drive isn't "keeping up with the Jones's".

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

Nonsense. People want a different car for the same reasons as they
replace anything.

And if the old one is still OK then they keep it.

You must know different people to me. Most change their car when they can
afford to/want to. Not after it has gone wrong. And if it has gone wrong
in some major way it would be obvious to the seller.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

So every 4 year old car is finished? I've got news for you...

It's a shame you can't read properly.

Shame you don't know what you're talking about. The place is awash with
perfectly reasonable secondhand cars for smallish sums.

--
*If you don't pay your exorcist you get repossessed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:23:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:37:28 +0000, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

********, people get rid of an "old" car because it needs it's first
MOT and/or the warranty is expiring and/or the PCP/lease hire or WHY
is coming to an end. Not to mention that having an "old" car on the
drive isn't "keeping up with the Jones's".

FFS read the thread. We are not discussing 3 year old cars here.
The OP is considering spending only £3K (including insurance). This
is well into 5+ year old cars. It'll had most of its depreciation by
then. It makes little economic sense to sell it unless there is
something wrong with it. The lower the value, the more likely the car
will be a dog.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In article ,
Lobster wrote:

Anyway - 20-yr-old daughter's now after her first car and needless to
say she's leaning on yours truly for advice. I'm certainly no car
expert and not the best go-to person, but want to advise as best I can.
Last few used cars I've bought myself have come from a local 'nearly
new' car supermarket and have been fine, but that place is a bit above
her price range: Where would people recommend I go to for sourcing a
vehicle under these circumstances?


Dunno if it's an option, but if you aren't in a hurry or particularly
fussy I've had good experiences chatting with my local trusted (that's the
key here!) garage guys.

They don't sell cars, but often hear of customers who are looking to upgrade
etc. Trade is prices offered are often not all that great, so they will sell
them to you for a bit above trade price.

Do you have a local garage you could ask?

Darren

In article ,
Mark wrote:
FFS read the thread. We are not discussing 3 year old cars here.
The OP is considering spending only £3K (including insurance). This
is well into 5+ year old cars. It'll had most of its depreciation by
then. It makes little economic sense to sell it unless there is
something wrong with it.

It rarely makes economic sense to buy a new car - yet obviously plenty do
so.

The lower the value, the more likely the car
will be a dog.

I'd not disagree with that. All we need now is to decide on the
proportion. A 'dog' of a car wouldn't get a legitimate MOT. And or drive
properly on a test drive.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 19, 3:27 pm, Mark
wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:23:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:37:28 +0000, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

********, people get rid of an "old" car because it needs it's first
MOT and/or the warranty is expiring and/or the PCP/lease hire or WHY
is coming to an end. Not to mention that having an "old" car on the
drive isn't "keeping up with the Jones's".

FFS read the thread. We are not discussing 3 year old cars here.
The OP is considering spending only £3K (including insurance). This

FFS read the thread.
OP "- About £3k budget (ie purchase price; excluding insurance etc) "

Jim K

On 19/12/2011 11:37, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

Nonsense IME.

People get shiny-toy fever with cars, same as everything else, and
second hand cars come from that. New kid, changed job, stuff like that
provides a steady supply. And people get scared of old cars so get rid
of them before they become a problem.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:04:37 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Mark wrote:
Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

Nonsense. People want a different car for the same reasons as they
replace anything.

And if the old one is still OK then they keep it.

You must know different people to me. Most change their car when they can
afford to/want to. Not after it has gone wrong.

Yes, I must know different people to you.

Most people[1] I know will either keep a car until it's a wreck and
then replace it or will keep their older car when they buy a new one.
The latter will finally get rid of their oldest car when it goes
wrong. Therefore all those cars being put on the "pre-owned" market
are dogs.

And if it has gone wrong
in some major way it would be obvious to the seller.

Not all faults are major and not all faults are obvious. And why
assume that the seller doesn't know about the fault? There's plenty
of well known ways of hiding problems. Many second hand car dealers
just buy at auction, slap a high price tag on and hope the customer
won't complain.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

So every 4 year old car is finished? I've got news for you...

It's a shame you can't read properly.

Shame you don't know what you're talking about. The place is awash with
perfectly reasonable secondhand cars for smallish sums.

Rubbish. A while ago I examined many cars in the "smallish sums"
price range. All were on forecourts of used car dealerships. None of
them declared any known problems. I found serious[*] faults with
/all/ of them. I doubt this situation has improved recently.
[*] serious - in that I would not even consider buying the car.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On 19/12/2011 15:27, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:23:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:37:28 +0000, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

********, people get rid of an "old" car because it needs it's first
MOT and/or the warranty is expiring and/or the PCP/lease hire or WHY
is coming to an end. Not to mention that having an "old" car on the
drive isn't "keeping up with the Jones's".

FFS read the thread. We are not discussing 3 year old cars here.
The OP is considering spending only £3K (including insurance). This
is well into 5+ year old cars. It'll had most of its depreciation by
then. It makes little economic sense to sell it unless there is
something wrong with it. The lower the value, the more likely the car
will be a dog.

No, it does make economic sense to sell it if somebody wants a newer one
for whatever reason. Cars are big things, tedious to store. They've also
got fairly significant costs to keep road-legal.

BTW. "only" 3K? Bangernomics is the art of running cars which are
significantly cheaper than that, and people who practice it know that
the majority of the cars they get are actually fine after filtering out
anything obviously knackered.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
You must know different people to me. Most change their car when they can
afford to/want to. Not after it has gone wrong.

Yes, I must know different people to you.

Most people[1] I know will either keep a car until it's a wreck and
then replace it or will keep their older car when they buy a new one.
The latter will finally get rid of their oldest car when it goes
wrong. Therefore all those cars being put on the "pre-owned" market
are dogs.

Sorry - no personal experience of the sort of housing estate you live on.
Have seen them on TV, though.

--
*Don't byte off more than you can view *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/12/2011 15:51, Mark wrote:

Shame you don't know what you're talking about. The place is awash with
perfectly reasonable secondhand cars for smallish sums.

Rubbish. A while ago I examined many cars in the "smallish sums"
price range. All were on forecourts of used car dealerships. None of
them declared any known problems. I found serious[*] faults with
/all/ of them. I doubt this situation has improved recently.

[*] serious - in that I would not even consider buying the car.

What sort of faults did you see?

FWIW I have had no problem buying second hand cars for smallish sums,
but I do buy privately rather than a dodgy dealer.

On Dec 19, 3:27*pm, Mark
wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:23:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:37:28 +0000, Mark wrote:

Remember that, due to high depreciation on cars, there is very little
reason for people to sell an older car unless there is something wrong
with it.

There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of secondhand
cars that are out of warranty are lemons.

********, people get rid of an "old" car because it needs it's first
MOT and/or the warranty is expiring and/or the PCP/lease hire or WHY
is coming to an end. Not to mention that having an "old" car on the
drive isn't "keeping up with the Jones's".

FFS read the thread. *We are not discussing 3 year old cars here.

No, you changed the thread to "the vast majority of secondhand cars
that are out of warranty are lemons" to which we all, rightly, say
"********".

MBQ

On 19/12/2011 15:51, Mark wrote:

You must know different people to me. Most change their car when they can
afford to/want to. Not after it has gone wrong.

Yes, I must know different people to you.

Most people[1] I know will either keep a car until it's a wreck and
then replace it or will keep their older car when they buy a new one.
The latter will finally get rid of their oldest car when it goes
wrong. Therefore all those cars being put on the "pre-owned" market
are dogs.

Dave's given a reasonable answer to this, but the politer version is
that the people you know are apparently not representative of the
population as a whole. This isn't abnormal - the people I know aren't
representative either, but I don't claim they are.

Unlike you though, I do know people who would be sources of suitable
second hand cars for others.

The "keep their older car when they buy a new one" is a bit of an odd
one - I suspect that's not nearly as common as you think.

On 18/12/11 18:03, Tim Watts wrote:

It's a real minefield and 3k is a painful point because you are not
guaranteed success but you lose a lot with a mistake - and even an expert
could not guarantee a good buy. My advice is to first decide on a make and
model that is plentiful and has cheap parts, eg older Ford and NOT a Toyota,
for example.

The problem with older Fords is not the availability of cheap parts, but the
cost of keeping the Bodyshell intact. A 13-year old Ford Escort had to be
scrapped in 2005 because holes were developing in the underframe (as well as
lots of other cosmetic rust issues all over the body and around the wheel
arches). This despite the engine, steering, and all other mechanical parts
being fine (and easy to fix where they had went wrong).

It wasn't worth the cost of fixing the underframe.

On 18/12/11 21:57, Newshound wrote:
On 18/12/2011 19:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
At the £3k level small dealers will often offer a 3 month warrenty
which is actually backed up by an AA or other insurance policy.

You are, of course, paying for this. The selling dealer gets a large
commission on this insurance policy, and the company selling it has
overheads and makes a profit too. So it is a form of gambling in reverse.
With rather poor odds.

Yes, indeed. But, if the dealer isn't all that local it's a quick and easy
way of reducing the hassle if a fault appears quickly and leaves you chasing
the trading standards route. And AA inspection takes extra time.

Incidentally, now that more police vehicles have ANPR hooked up to MID, it's
probably worth talking to your insurer before going to see something which
you might drive home.

Easy to check...

http://www.askmid.com/

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

I have never bought any policy. I prefer to use the money saved by
not buying one to swap the timing belt ASAP after buying a vehicle
that I do not know the history of.

Yes. But it's not too difficult to get a car with good history for 3
grand at an auction. Or as you imply, put any money saved over retail
into a pot for initial servcing/repairs.

When I was looking to change my van about 3 years ago I was informed the the
local VW main dealer were selling their parts delivery van. I was interested
and when I asked to see the service history it turned out that it had never
been serviced! Not even an oil change.

I also love the difference I noticed between house and car buyers.

£1000 car and the guy spends an hour inspecting the car and asking qustions.
£100,000 house (we still have them up North) and they decide to buy or
reject in five minutes without asking any questions.

--
Adam

In message , Clive
George writes
On 19/12/2011 15:51, Mark wrote:

You must know different people to me. Most change their car when they can
afford to/want to. Not after it has gone wrong.

Yes, I must know different people to you.

Most people[1] I know will either keep a car until it's a wreck and
then replace it or will keep their older car when they buy a new one.
The latter will finally get rid of their oldest car when it goes
wrong. Therefore all those cars being put on the "pre-owned" market
are dogs.

Dave's given a reasonable answer to this, but the politer version is
that the people you know are apparently not representative of the
population as a whole. This isn't abnormal - the people I know aren't
representative either, but I don't claim they are.

Unlike you though, I do know people who would be sources of suitable
second hand cars for others.

The "keep their older car when they buy a new one" is a bit of an odd
one - I suspect that's not nearly as common as you think.

Indeed, I can't think of one person I know who keeps their old cars once
they get a new one (well a couple of people needed 2 cars and got a
newer one as well, but that's rather different).

My casual observation is that people either tend to get a new car at
around 3 -4 years or so (when the lease runs out, when the warranty runs
out, when they've paid of the loan etc. I guess) or they tend to keep it
for some years and get shot when it needs or might need an expensive
repair, gets too knackered and tatty or whatever.

We are the latter.
--
Chris French

funkyoldcortina wrote:
On 18/12/11 18:03, Tim Watts wrote:

It's a real minefield and 3k is a painful point because you are not
guaranteed success but you lose a lot with a mistake - and even an
expert could not guarantee a good buy. My advice is to first decide
on a make and model that is plentiful and has cheap parts, eg older
Ford and NOT a Toyota, for example.

The problem with older Fords is not the availability of cheap parts,
but the cost of keeping the Bodyshell intact. A 13-year old Ford
Escort had to be scrapped in 2005 because holes were developing in
the underframe (as well as lots of other cosmetic rust issues all
over the body and around the wheel arches). This despite the engine,
steering, and all other mechanical parts being fine (and easy to fix
where they had went wrong).
It wasn't worth the cost of fixing the underframe.

I consider myself lucky that my Grandad, who used to buy a brand new Ford
Orion every 2 years was messed about by the Ford dealer in 1995 and he
walked across the road and bought a Honda Civic.

Had he bought the Orion I would be able to fit the rust that was the Orion
into his urn. Instead I have a well working N reg Honda.

--
Adam