First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...

And a serious question: while thinking about adding antifreeze to the
heating system, I recalled that in WWII, the piston-engined power plants in
aircraft invaribly used (100%?) gycol (which I think is anti-freeze by any
other name). What was the advantage of doing this? I can't see as the
anti-freezing properties would be of any interest, so does gycol 'conduct'
heat more efficiently than water or glycol-water mix? If it does, would
running a domestic heating system with glycol instead of water make it more
efficent?

Davey


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Help fight mailbots with these in your tagline:

Not really related to your post, but browsing aircon units the other
day, I noticed a split unit that used water as the link between the two
units, rather than gas.

Actually sounded like a good idea :-)

Lee
--
To reply use lee.blaver and NTL world com

"Davey" wrote in message
...
First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards.
---------
You're not far off the mark. The main difference is the method of heat exchange
employed.

With a UK central heating system you only have the heating element of an
environmental control system. You pump in energy, that's converted to a
distributed form of heat, water generally, and then piped around the premises to
larger heat exchangers (radiators), the water on return is now cooler than at
launch and gets reheated. Round and round it goes.

This is fine for your house, especially in England where the odd warm day or
sultry night is something to be remembered. Where both heating and cooling are
required regularly you need a few enhancements.


The obvious thing was the central
heating: could I pump cold water around that?
-------------
I'm sure you could.

Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings.
----------
That's right. They're not efficient but they are fine for your house. They
transfer their heat by 'absorbing' the cold in the environment. As they give up
their heat the water in them gets colder and the environment gets warmer. They
are useless at cooling in conventional form.

Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect.
----------
No, typically you would want to circulate the water at 4 degrees Centigrade.

The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...
------------
Might as well go the whole hog and circulate liquid nitrogen (just joking)

The cooling element of an environmental control system is not unlike that which
cools your fridge. Way bigger, but the same principal. So you 'could' rig one up
yourself. You have much of the system already installed. You just require a
cooler instead of/as well as a boiler and fan-coil units instead of radiators.
Fan-coil units could be made from old car radiators (this time they would be
working in reverse) with a fan behind them. ( The idea being that you want to
blow air across as many elements as practical to exchange energy, in this case -
blowing warm, environmental, air across cold vanes. The air sucked in by the fan
will be at ambient. the air after passing through the radiator will be markedly
cooler ) The cooling unit 'could' be contrived out of a few old fridge bits but
you would need to allow for venting the heat they will generate, (heat doesn't
disappear it just gets moved around.), this requires more energy.

The idea would be to push the cold water through the 'car radiators', the fan
blowing across the elements would enhance the otherwise crummy heat exchange and
away you go. The return water would be cooler than at launch and so would
require cooling again. Round and round you go.

But it all takes energy. Which we have to pay for. So, to be warm, or cool,
comes at a cost. But I reckon one could make such a set-up if really desired.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:46:27 +0100, "Davey" wrote:

First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...

And a serious question: while thinking about adding antifreeze to the
heating system, I recalled that in WWII, the piston-engined power plants in
aircraft invaribly used (100%?) gycol (which I think is anti-freeze by any
other name). What was the advantage of doing this? I can't see as the
anti-freezing properties would be of any interest, so does gycol 'conduct'
heat more efficiently than water or glycol-water mix? If it does, would
running a domestic heating system with glycol instead of water make it more
efficent?

Davey

I saw a flyer for this in Plumbcenter recently

http://www.aermec.com/support/pdf/schede/siduy.pdf



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Davey" wrote in message
...
The obvious thing was the central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it
freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...
==============================
Hi Davey,
You'll need a drip-tray under every radiator!
I've recently taken to chilling my lager glass in the freezer for a couple
of hours before use.
It's got condensation/frost on it before I get the freezer door shut!

Cheers,

Ian

Davey wrote:

First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...


There are several problems but by far and away the biggest is the amount
of condensation (or even ice) that would form rapidly on the radiators.

However why get so into technology.
1)The average temperature (over 24hrs) even on the vey hottest days is
only in the low 20s. So air the air at night try to keep the heat out
during the day. Shutters are used in hot countries for this reason.

2) Humidity and air movement are far far more significant than
temperature.

3) A low tech ceiling fan (big & slowish preferable) will make things
much more confortable.

4) Cooling the air without removing the moisture will make things not
much better if at all (I haven't followed the evaporative coolers thread
but the idea of trading temp for humidity is dubious IMHO.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Davey" wrote in message
...
First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it
should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake
in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering
if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down.


A popular solution in the US (where not everyone has air conditioning) is a
'whole house fan'. This is a BIG fan, maybe 2' in diameter which is located
in the upstairs ceiling and vents into the loft. In hot weather it draws
air in downstairs and blows the hot air out via the loft, which is also
cooled which, in turn, helps keep the house cooler.

Based on the cooling effect I get buy opening roof (velux) windows and a
downstairs window this approach is worth trying.

I know that blowing warm (or hot) moist air into a cold loft is wrong but,
in the summer, the loft isn't cold! Some cover would be required in the
winter to prevent warm moist air getting into the loft and causing
condensation.

Regards

Brian



--
73
Brian
G8OSN
www.g8osn.org.uk

and

www.qsl.net/g8osn for FREE training material for the UK Foundation and
Intermediate Licences

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...


"Davey" wrote in message
...

A popular solution in the US (where not everyone has air conditioning) is a
'whole house fan'. This is a BIG fan, maybe 2' in diameter which is located
in the upstairs ceiling and vents into the loft. In hot weather it draws
air in downstairs and blows the hot air out via the loft, which is also
cooled which, in turn, helps keep the house cooler.

Based on the cooling effect I get buy opening roof (velux) windows and a
downstairs window this approach is worth trying.

-----------
Gophers apply a similar but more sophisticated technique. They ensure that
entry/exit points to their underground home are at different heights. Any breeze
causes an air circulation within the tunnel system and both cools and purges it.
Pretty cunning for something that is supposed to be dumb. Humans also latched on
to this trick in the days before air-conditioning. Hence the small towers on
Arab houses. I'm sure many throughout Asia also applied this.

"gandalf" wrote in message
...

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...


"Davey" wrote in message
...

A popular solution in the US (where not everyone has air conditioning)
is a
'whole house fan'. This is a BIG fan, maybe 2' in diameter which is
located
in the upstairs ceiling and vents into the loft. In hot weather it
draws
air in downstairs and blows the hot air out via the loft, which is also
cooled which, in turn, helps keep the house cooler.

Based on the cooling effect I get buy opening roof (velux) windows and a
downstairs window this approach is worth trying.

-----------
Gophers apply a similar but more sophisticated technique. They ensure that
entry/exit points to their underground home are at different heights. Any
breeze
causes an air circulation within the tunnel system and both cools and
purges it.
Pretty cunning for something that is supposed to be dumb. Humans also
latched on
to this trick in the days before air-conditioning. Hence the small towers
on
Arab houses. I'm sure many throughout Asia also applied this.

Georgian windows are supposed to go right up to ceiling height. Pull upper
sash down and lower one up and instant circulation with the hot risen air
floating outside and the cooler air dropping in via the bottom sash. Great
design.


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"gandalf" wrote in message
...

But to be practical, this country does not warrant environmental control
at the
domestic level. It would be impossible for most of us to justify the
additional
cost. If it really bothered me I would just buy a window rattler and cool
down
the lounge. If I was bothered by heat at night I would get another one for
the
bedroom, although I doubt it,. as they can drive you nuts so I probably
would
rather just live with it the one or two times a decade it gets too much.

High insulation helps a lot. It keeps heat out as well as in. Roof
overhangs to the correct length to shade the summer sun and allow in winter
sun. A slow moving fan is fine for most cases with high insulation. Heat
recovery is fine by taking in outside air from under vegetation. Quite
effective too. No need for chillers, compressors, etc.

Heat pumps heating a battery in a duct can reverse. So cooling by default,
but it still cost to run, but the extracted heat may be stored in the earth
to be extracted in winter. It moves heat. The "overall" cost may be
economical enough.


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"IMM" wrote in message
...

"gandalf" wrote in message
...

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...


"Davey" wrote in message
...


Georgian windows are supposed to go right up to ceiling height. Pull upper
sash down and lower one up and instant circulation with the hot risen air
floating outside and the cooler air dropping in via the bottom sash. Great
design.

-----------
Works well in Africa. I remember working in the Raadsaal (Paul Krugers
parliament building in Pretoria) and they had just such a set-up. But the rooms
had extremely high ceilings. A good 20 foot or so. The height seemed to be vital
to the principal.

We have similar old buildings in my home town here and they too have high
ceilings, but they're a bugger to heat in winter. Some sort of hydraulically
adjustable ceiling would be ideal.

"gandalf" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"gandalf" wrote in message
...

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...


"Davey" wrote in message
...


Georgian windows are supposed to go right up to ceiling height. Pull
upper
sash down and lower one up and instant circulation with the hot risen
air
floating outside and the cooler air dropping in via the bottom sash.
Great
design.

-----------
Works well in Africa. I remember working in the Raadsaal (Paul Krugers
parliament building in Pretoria) and they had just such a set-up. But the
rooms
had extremely high ceilings. A good 20 foot or so. The height seemed to be
vital
to the principal.

We have similar old buildings in my home town here and they too have high
ceilings, but they're a bugger to heat in winter. Some sort of
hydraulically
adjustable ceiling would be ideal.

Or a slow moving fan push the hot risen air down.





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I once owned a house where my bedroom got insanely hot in summer.
I had one of those small air fresheners which is basically a fan
sucking air up through the base where there is a perfumed filter.

I chopped the legs and filter assembly off bottom of the
freshener, leaving a fan mounted in a plastic cylinder.

I cut a hole in the bedroom ceiling, slightly smaller than unit,
and mounted the unit above it in the loft. This was sealed to the
upper surface of the plaster board with filler foam all round the
outside. The internal switch was run out to a ceiling pull
switch. I powered it from the lighting circuit - a bit naughty,
but I didn't know any better in those days and it was a very
low-power device anyway so no harm done.

I would run this all day in hot weather, venting air into the
loft to combat heat build up, and all night too of course.

The fan was very quiet - you could barely tell it was on.

This system was extremely effective.

For the internal face of the ceiling I adpated a car speaker
grille to provide a good cosmetic appearance. It collected dust
and needed brushing off now and again - v. important, or the fan
motor might start to fry eventually with the obvious fire risk.

In the winter I fitted a cover over the grille to prevent hot air
escaping.

W.



"Gnube" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:00:54 +0100, "IMM"
wrote:

Some US homes have a loft extract fans operated by a
thermostat. When hot
during the day, it extracts heat and replaces hot air with
cooler outside
air. During the night it cools the loft right down for the
coming hot day.
Very effective.

If just blowing the house air into to loft would be good enough
to get
started, there's those square type 20" fans you can get and
then a
spare loft hatch (mdf board?) with that fan loaded into it
might be an
interesting experiment to try to see if it's worth following up
with
better suited kit if needed.

Sure sounds intriguing! Easy enough to swap into place on
hotter days
I'd guess - or just for the season maybe?

Take Care,
Gnube
I don't want to win the lottery I just want to win a barn full
of seasoned timber! ;O)

In article , essjay001 (e) writes:

e ISTR that "radiator" in the wrong term.anyway Space heater would I think be
e more acurate. Something to do with radiating in vacuums.

IIRC most of the heating from a CH radiator comes from convection
rather then radiation (compare holding your hand a foot in front with
holding it a foot above the radiator).

Randomly prompted question for CH bods: I have recently moved my couch
to be in front of the radiator. Should Ithink of moving it somewhere
else for the winter? I presume I will heat the back of the couch,
which I don't think woll be a problem per-se, and heat being heat it
will just leak out into the room, but maybe it will make the room warm
up so much slower that it will be a real problem.

--
Mail me as _O_
|

"Gnube" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:00:54 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

Some US homes have a loft extract fans operated by a thermostat. When
hot
during the day, it extracts heat and replaces hot air with cooler outside
air. During the night it cools the loft right down for the coming hot
day.
Very effective.

If just blowing the house air into to loft would be good enough to get
started, there's those square type 20" fans you can get and then a
spare loft hatch (mdf board?) with that fan loaded into it might be an
interesting experiment to try to see if it's worth following up with
better suited kit if needed.

Sure sounds intriguing! Easy enough to swap into place on hotter days
I'd guess - or just for the season maybe?

You could have the fan on the inside of a hatch door and a grill the other
side. This can hinge up and be fixed in place when not used. Then have
another "sealed" hatch door on the other side of the hatch and swing this
down for winter use. The best is a permanent fan in the loft and a grill
with an auto sealed damper in the ceiling at the top of the stairs. the two
are connected via ductwork.



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It was - at least partially - a tongue in cheek posting. Just my musings
about the problem of being too hot whilst trying to get to sleep. But it has
generated some interesting postings!

But, as yet, no one has answered my one serious question: why did WWII
planes use neat glycol as coolant, and what would the effects of using this
in a domestic heating system be. Apart from finding all the leaks, perhaps.
Perhaps I should post in alt.history.wwii.aeronauticalengineering (or
something)?!

Davey


--
Help fight mailbots with these in your tagline:






"Davey" wrote in message
...
First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it
should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake
in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering
if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the
central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it
freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...

And a serious question: while thinking about adding antifreeze to the
heating system, I recalled that in WWII, the piston-engined power plants
in
aircraft invaribly used (100%?) gycol (which I think is anti-freeze by any
other name). What was the advantage of doing this? I can't see as the
anti-freezing properties would be of any interest, so does gycol 'conduct'
heat more efficiently than water or glycol-water mix? If it does, would
running a domestic heating system with glycol instead of water make it
more
efficent?

Davey


--
Help fight mailbots with these in your tagline:

Davey wrote:

It was - at least partially - a tongue in cheek posting. Just my musings
about the problem of being too hot whilst trying to get to sleep. But it has
generated some interesting postings!

But, as yet, no one has answered my one serious question: why did WWII
planes use neat glycol as coolant, and what would the effects of using this

Because it has a higher specific heat capacity than water or
water/anit-freeze and meant they could use smaller radiators.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol

in a domestic heating system be. Apart from finding all the leaks, perhaps.
Perhaps I should post in alt.history.wwii.aeronauticalengineering (or
something)?!

Davey


--
Help fight mailbots with these in your tagline:






"Davey" wrote in message
...
First, as an aside, what is the opposite of radiator (as in central
heating) - consumer, sink? Best I could think of was absorber.

To the point: I can't see any actual solutions to my problem, but it
should
provoke some intereresting discussion, anyway.

It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake
in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering
if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the
central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it
freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?
Doubtful, as this isn't its purpose. Add antifreeze? That can take water
down to -20 deg. C, as I recall (if, of course, I could 'bulk cool' the
water down to that!). Now rads at -20 deg C might be nice on hot summer
nights...

And a serious question: while thinking about adding antifreeze to the
heating system, I recalled that in WWII, the piston-engined power plants
in
aircraft invaribly used (100%?) gycol (which I think is anti-freeze by any
other name). What was the advantage of doing this? I can't see as the
anti-freezing properties would be of any interest, so does gycol 'conduct'
heat more efficiently than water or glycol-water mix? If it does, would
running a domestic heating system with glycol instead of water make it
more
efficent?

Davey


--
Help fight mailbots with these in your tagline:

Interesting thread all round:

Maybe a water bed with ice in it????? Condensation could be
contained by the liner? One might wake rather damp in the morning
though?

I've always claimed "that the climate here is similar but colder
than the UK" But even at the same latitude as Spain, on this side
of the Atlantic though, it is on average colder and being
adjacent to the North Atlantic, well moderated so that while it
doesn't get as cold as central North America it can be cold and
foggy in the summer!

Well; yesterday we finally got some warm weather here (eastern
Canada) about time too, mid July!

It got up to a somewhat humid 26 Celsius which we find hot. I can
just hear our Florida friends snicker and say "Call that hot"?
That's their winter temperature! Last night it cooled right down,
the advantage of being on the coast so that even with the annual
crop of icebergs all drifted away to melt in the Gulf Stream it
was comfortable for sleeping. Later I had to close the window it
got quite chilly.

Two things;
Vent the roof;
1) Our roof is already well vented but today I must remember to
get the ladder and open the 'big' vent in the gable end of the
roof to vent hot air (sometimes we also install a temporary fan
mounted on a piece of plywood) if this weather continues. Must
also put in the temporary 'fly screen' we had a wasps nest in
there one year!
Use basement (if available);
2) Our approx. 1500 sq. foot by 8 foot high, in ground concrete
basement stays cool at about ground temperature, plus other
losses and gains; roughly at 55 deg. F in winter and
approximately 60 deg. F in summer. So it is possible to close up
the house tight early on a hot day and circulate the upstairs
warm and basement cool air with temporary fans to attain some
degree of comfort. This has worked for several hours until say
around 4.00 PM. Between then and sunset though it gets rather
warm and one would like to be able to go in and out of an
evening. One problem though can be the basement gets damp with
warm humid upstairs and outside air getting to dew point down
there; so some days later, on a dry day, one 'airs out' the
basement thoroughly. We also use a small dehumidifier in a 9 foot
by 11 foot electronics workshop down there if required.
When we lived in Liverpool, big old house turned into flats, a
basement work/storage area was available. On an occasional hot
night it was just as well to go down there into the cool and do
some d-i-y in the workshop, rather than toss and turn in the heat
upstairs!
If necessary the basement is a great place to sleep!

"Davey" wrote in message
...
It's been very hot here in the UK this past weekend and while lying awake
in
the sweltering heat, trying and failing to get to sleep, I was wondering
if
there was anything I could do to cool the house down. I started on how we
kept the house warm, and worked backwards. The obvious thing was the
central
heating: could I pump cold water around that? Well the rads. were already
cold, so that wasn't doing much. So why does the heating work? Because the
rads get a lot hotter than the surroundings. Could I pump very cold water
around the system? I couldn't see water even at 0 deg. having much effect,
so it would have to be well below 0 deg. to have any effect. The obvious
problem - you can't cool water below 0 deg. C! How could I stop it
freezing
up? Does the anti-corrosion additive have any anti-freeze properties?

The opposite to a radiator in this form would be a similar device mounted
close to the ceiling with something substantially colder pumped through it
(say a liquid with a low freezing point kept at -20C). Then convection
would do the opposite of what the radiator does in that the cool would
"fall" as opposed to the heat "rising". Problem is, the moisture in the air
would just ice up the metal and make a mess!! If you had a low (1C for
example) water based system, it would just condensate all over the place so
that's not a goer either!

Some old "air conditioning" systems do just use cold water pipes and a fan
to blow air over them, thus slightly cooling the air which is accelerated
around the room by the fan. A bit too subtle for my liking though! The
fact is, hot objects near floor level put high energy into the cold air
around them and send it with gusto up to the roof - this heats a room very
effectively if the volume of air is not too great. A cold system would be
too subtle without pumping the hot air past a refrigerant and blowing it out
aggressively through the room.

Trust me, the forced convection of an air conditioner will serve you better
;o)



a

In message , Davey
writes
It was - at least partially - a tongue in cheek posting. Just my musings
about the problem of being too hot whilst trying to get to sleep. But it has
generated some interesting postings!

But, as yet, no one has answered my one serious question: why did WWII
planes use neat glycol as coolant, and what would the effects of using this
in a domestic heating system be. Apart from finding all the leaks, perhaps.
Perhaps I should post in alt.history.wwii.aeronauticalengineering (or
something)?!



They probably only used glycol after Italy surrendered and there was
plenty of Italian wine about

--
geoff

geoff wrote:

In message , Davey
writes
It was - at least partially - a tongue in cheek posting. Just my musings
about the problem of being too hot whilst trying to get to sleep. But it has
generated some interesting postings!

But, as yet, no one has answered my one serious question: why did WWII
planes use neat glycol as coolant, and what would the effects of using this
in a domestic heating system be. Apart from finding all the leaks, perhaps.
Perhaps I should post in alt.history.wwii.aeronauticalengineering (or
something)?!



They probably only used glycol after Italy surrendered and there was
plenty of Italian wine about


I thought that was Austrian wine?

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:07:41 +0100, geoff wrote:

They probably only used glycol after Italy surrendered and there was
plenty of Italian wine about

Rascal ;O)


Take Care,
Gnube
I don't want to win the lottery I just want to win a barn full of seasoned timber! ;O)

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:28:34 +0100, "al"
wrote:

The opposite to a radiator in this form would be a similar device mounted
close to the ceiling with something substantially colder pumped through it
(say a liquid with a low freezing point kept at -20C). Then convection
would do the opposite of what the radiator does in that the cool would
"fall" as opposed to the heat "rising". Problem is, the moisture in the air
would just ice up the metal and make a mess!! If you had a low (1C for
example) water based system, it would just condensate all over the place so
that's not a goer either!

Some old "air conditioning" systems do just use cold water pipes and a fan
to blow air over them, thus slightly cooling the air which is accelerated
around the room by the fan. A bit too subtle for my liking though! The
fact is, hot objects near floor level put high energy into the cold air
around them and send it with gusto up to the roof - this heats a room very
effectively if the volume of air is not too great. A cold system would be
too subtle without pumping the hot air past a refrigerant and blowing it out
aggressively through the room.

Trust me, the forced convection of an air conditioner will serve you better
;o)

I wonder, if you compress air it can remove the moisture from it
substantially - it that were passed to a cooler, then it might clean
up the act quite a bit - running low diameter (even braided) air hose
around the house is not such a nightmare as other utilities ducts,
tubes or cables can be. You could then site a cooler locally in any
room you felt you wanted one, like with a fan heater for example. Only
one compressor and a tank to deal with on a "sound issue" basis too.
Given it's under pressure then the need for a fan is somewhat reduced
too. The requirement for an "efficient" compressor would be prime
though. Maybe you could cool the air before distributing it round the
house, but this would make the pipe requirement a good bit dearer I'd
guess.

Take Care,
Gnube
I don't want to win the lottery I just want to win a barn full of seasoned timber! ;O)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:10:37 +0100, ben wrote:

This is something I almost did a few weeks ago but didn't get round to
in the end.

Be interested to hear your findings if you do get back to it.

Incidentally, on the subject of cooling
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3069037.stm

Interesting and fun!

Take Care,
Gnube
I don't want to win the lottery I just want to win a barn full of seasoned timber! ;O)