I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:
http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:
http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 02:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

Brazing is often preferred with unknown materials as cracking after
welding is very common.

http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk25.html has some good articles on the
subject (you need to register for free access).

On Jul 14, 9:58 pm, Peter Parry wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 02:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Matty F

wrote:
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

Brazing is often preferred with unknown materials as cracking after
welding is very common.

The pipe is cast iron.

http://www.twi.co.uk/content/jk25.htmlhas some good articles on the
subject (you need to register for free access).

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:
http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:
http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

Yes. Cast iron is a bitch to weld without cracking later. Ideally it needs
to be brought up to close to melting temperature, welded and then cooled
very slowly. Having said that when a threaded boss on an old Marina engine
of mine needed repairing 30 years ago my uncle just filled it with weld with
an old stick welder with some randomly selected welding rod, drilled and
tapped it and it was fine. However it was a solid lump well attached to a
solid engine block. Anything fragile like your pipe is a different kettle of
piscean vertebrates.
--
Dave Baker

On Jul 14, 10:44*am, Matty F wrote:
I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

On 14/07/2011 10:44, Matty F wrote:
I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:
http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:
http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?

I would be extremely pessimistic of any result. Cast iron can be welded
in the manner described by other posters, but I would expect re-cracking
of the flange through the force exerted by the bolts when assembled.

I would be more tempted to make a mild steel flange of the same size,
cut the old one off and braze or weld the end of the pipe onto the new
flange.

Are you sure it's cast iron? Is the material too hard to file?

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:
http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:
http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?


Bronze welding may be more suitable as much less heat going into the pipe,
you can also build up thickness and shape easily.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 03:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Jul 14, 9:58 pm, Peter Parry wrote:

Brazing is often preferred with unknown materials as cracking after
welding is very common.

The pipe is cast iron.

Sorry, I meant unknown type of cast iron. It has several forms some
of which are unweldable because the welding changes the characteristic
of the cast iron making it very brittle and cracking inevitable.
..

Rick Hughes wrote:

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
I cut up a piece of cast iron to fit the missing lug on this pipe:
http://i52.tinypic.com/35aryqe.jpg
That's a one inch hole in the other lug.

The pipe to start with:
http://i54.tinypic.com/dhekj7.jpg

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.
I'll drill a new hole after the welding is finished.
I've not seen cast iron welded before. Anything to worry about?


Bronze welding may be more suitable as much less heat going into the
pipe, you can also build up thickness and shape easily.


Have you thought of recasting the whole thing?

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 04:06:36 -0700, Matty F wrote:

On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool it
down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its going to
be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam at
110 psi.

Is replacing the entire pipe* an option? My (limited) understanding of
welding cast iron is that quite often it can break again in the future,
particularly in high stress environments, and it looks like that pipe as
a whole has had a hard life (understandable, given where it came from).

* either with something manufactured to be identical to the original, or
- in a restoration context - with something that performs the same
function, where you'll keep the damaged original in storage as part of
the project.

cheers

Jules

On Jul 14, 12:06*pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

In that case I would be inclined to change to a fabricated stainless
steel version. The stainless will resist the flue gases and have a
better long term bursting strength. Patched up cast iron with 110psi
steam inside it isn't something I would want to get too close to.

On Jul 14, 12:06*pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

That seems very unlikely or very old. It doesn'tlook like a steam
flange.
Fireboxes just don't run "red hot".
If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

On Jul 14, 12:06*pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

In days of yore, there were steam boilers that ran at a few PSI made
out of cast iron sections. They were intended for heating buildings
and common in America but not over here.

However they are inherently extremely dangerous devices. People have
been killed by boiler failures.
Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

cynic wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:06 pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:00 pm, cynic wrote:

Cast is VERY difficult to weld properly. the usual way is to slowly
heat the piece up to red hot, weld it with appropriate rods and cool
it down slowly. Unless you know someone with the right skills its
going to be expensive.
I'd be inclined to try brazing then make a shaped clamp plate to go
over the flange and once complete hide it with paint. Is it an exhaust
pipe from some static engine or something else?
The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

In that case I would be inclined to change to a fabricated stainless
steel version. The stainless will resist the flue gases and have a
better long term bursting strength. Patched up cast iron with 110psi
steam inside it isn't something I would want to get too close to.
+1

On Jul 14, 3:59*pm, cynic wrote:

The pipe is bolted inside a firebox that's red hot and contains steam
at 110 psi.

In that case I would be inclined to change to a fabricated stainless
steel version.

That's probably not permissible, for most steam boiler certification
(depends where in the world you are).

The problem is that an old boiler doesn't meet modern design standards
- often because there's no discernible "design" recorded for it. If it
exists, hasn't killed anyone lately, and some basic objective tests
say that it's in good condition for its original design, then the
design can be grandfathered in and the boiler can be ticketed.

OTOH, if you _change_ its design, even in a fairly minor way, then you
have a new design to contend with, and you're into a world of
paperwork. It also (and this is the problem) loses grandfathering
status for other parts of the boiler. You may very well make an
improvement to one dubious part of the boiler, only to then fail all
hope of certification because some other non-problematic aspect is now
seen as inadequate.

This catch 22 is a reason for scrapping many contemporary boilers that
in a more holistic world could continue operation. You may find an
inspector with literally half a clue, who won't pass the old part
because it's knackered, but won't allow it to be replaced
appropriately without condemining the rest of the boiler.


OTOH, don't introduce stainless into an old boiler unless you know
what you're doing and you also keep a close eye on alloys. You can
really screw things up with galvanic corrosion, if you're not careful.

On Jul 14, 10:44*am, Matty F wrote:

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.

On the whole, I'd take the whole flange off, and weld on a whole new
flange. This gives you much better options for cleaning up before the
weld.

Cast iron welding is no big deal (manual arc, nickel rod). It's no
harder than brazing and generally gives a better result. The trick for
both is to pre-heat well with a gas torch beforehand, cool slowly
afterwards (bucket of wood ash) and (for welding with a nickel rod)
peen the weld after it's welded and while it's still hot.

Price of nickel rods is a bitch. If you can buy a handful, then fine.
Otherwise a boxful is spendy for a one-off job, so it's usually easier
to go to someone who already owns a box (and probably welds CI all
day, as many welders in the repair trade do).

I'm rather puzzled to see a CI pipe with a CI flange used like this
on the inside of a firebox though. I'm actually surprised it has
passed any inspection for the last hundred years.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

I fully agree. You should get some mechanic from a museum or something who has
*experience* repairing these ancient things. You know, someone who has actually
spent *time* fixing these things. Or a fully qualified stem engine mechanic!*

Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

You'd be much better off scrapping the boiler and replacing it with something
entirely new. And instead of a firebox, maybe an electric heater? These are much
safer. Or a modern condensing boiler, which is also more efficient! Yes!


Thomas Prufer


* There are actually few around, as East Germany ran steam locomotives in
regular service until recently, relatively speaking.

On Jul 15, 6:38 am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jul 14, 10:44 am, Matty F wrote:

Some expert welder will weld the lug on. I suppose he will have to
grind bits off the new piece in order to weld right to the middle.

On the whole, I'd take the whole flange off, and weld on a whole new
flange. This gives you much better options for cleaning up before the
weld.

Cast iron welding is no big deal (manual arc, nickel rod). It's no
harder than brazing and generally gives a better result. The trick for
both is to pre-heat well with a gas torch beforehand, cool slowly
afterwards (bucket of wood ash) and (for welding with a nickel rod)
peen the weld after it's welded and while it's still hot.

Price of nickel rods is a bitch. If you can buy a handful, then fine.
Otherwise a boxful is spendy for a one-off job, so it's usually easier
to go to someone who already owns a box (and probably welds CI all
day, as many welders in the repair trade do).

I'm rather puzzled to see a CI pipe with a CI flange used like this
on the inside of a firebox though. I'm actually surprised it has
passed any inspection for the last hundred years.

Actually the pipe is at the other end of the boiler from the firebox,
so not red hot. But still hot!
The welding will be done by the best experts around, and inspected by
a boiler inspector, as usual.

On 7/15/2011 7:29 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

I fully agree. You should get some mechanic from a museum or something who has
*experience* repairing these ancient things. You know, someone who has actually
spent *time* fixing these things. Or a fully qualified stem engine mechanic!*

Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

You'd be much better off scrapping the boiler and replacing it with something
entirely new. And instead of a firebox, maybe an electric heater? These are much
safer. Or a modern condensing boiler, which is also more efficient! Yes!

You must be new here. Matty IS someone working in a museum, who repairs
ancient things, and the boiler he's talking about is undoubtedly a
restoration job. I suspect that replacing the boiler with a modern
version would defeat the whole purpose of the enterprise. Nevertheless
your point about the advisability of attempting a repair may well be
correct.

On Jul 15, 1:15 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/07/2011 23:39, Gib Bogle wrote:



On 7/15/2011 7:29 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

I fully agree. You should get some mechanic from a museum or something
who has
*experience* repairing these ancient things. You know, someone who has
actually
spent *time* fixing these things. Or a fully qualified stem engine
mechanic!*

Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

You'd be much better off scrapping the boiler and replacing it with
something
entirely new. And instead of a firebox, maybe an electric heater?
These are much
safer. Or a modern condensing boiler, which is also more efficient! Yes!

You must be new here. Matty IS someone working in a museum, who repairs
ancient things, and the boiler he's talking about is undoubtedly a
restoration job. I suspect that replacing the boiler with a modern
version would defeat the whole purpose of the enterprise. Nevertheless
your point about the advisability of attempting a repair may well be
correct.

I now have this mental picture of a steam train, sans boiler, and modern
combi bolted to the front! Still saves shovelling coal, but might need a
long gas hose.

Efficiency is unimportant. We have thousands of years worth of coal
here. Shoveling coal keeps the driver fit.
And he can cook his lunch along the way:
http://i53.tinypic.com/2nis6y1.jpg

The concerns about safety are noted.

On Jul 14, 11:39*pm, Gib Bogle wrote:
On 7/15/2011 7:29 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote:





On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT), *wrote:

If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

I fully agree. You should get some mechanic from a museum or something who has
*experience* repairing these ancient things. You know, someone who has actually
spent *time* fixing these things. Or a fully qualified stem engine mechanic!*

Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. *You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

You'd be much better off scrapping the boiler and replacing it with something
entirely new. And instead of a firebox, maybe an electric heater? These are much
safer. Or a modern condensing boiler, which is also more efficient! Yes!

You must be new here. *Matty IS someone working in a museum, who repairs
ancient things, and the boiler he's talking about is undoubtedly a
restoration job. *I suspect that replacing the boiler with a modern
version would defeat the whole purpose of the enterprise. *Nevertheless
your point about the advisability of attempting a repair may well be
correct.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I think Matty needs to get someone in. Even to suggest such a
thing is extremely foolish.

I have seen the aftermath of a steam flange failure, fortunately I was
not present.
Every window in the place was blown out and the boiler firer was badly
injured but fortunate to survive being burned and afterwards
suffocation..
It was an oil fired boiler, if it had been coal he would have surely
died.

A flange on a CAST IRON valve broke off. Afterwards we found the
casting was faulty in that the pipe bore was eccentric to the exterior
of the casting.
This was a quite new valve too never mind some corroded old rubbish.

Steam locomotive boilers are particularly prone to all sorts of
corrosion and fatigue isses due to using fresh water and poor water
treatment.
Riveted boilers are even worse.

A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

On Jul 15, 3:13*am, Matty F wrote:
On Jul 15, 1:15 pm, John Rumm wrote:





On 14/07/2011 23:39, Gib Bogle wrote:

On 7/15/2011 7:29 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:56:01 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

If this joint were to fail there could be very severe consequenses.
Under no circumstanses should you try to repair this.

I fully agree. You should get some mechanic from a museum or something
who has
*experience* repairing these ancient things. You know, someone who has
actually
spent *time* fixing these things. Or a fully qualified stem engine
mechanic!*

Cast iron has been outlawed for seventy or eighty years for steam
vessels. You need to forget all about this project or someone could
get killed.

All steam vessels by law have to be insured and inspected annually.
There's absolutely no way you could achieve this, it would fail any
inspection.

You'd be much better off scrapping the boiler and replacing it with
something
entirely new. And instead of a firebox, maybe an electric heater?
These are much
safer. Or a modern condensing boiler, which is also more efficient! Yes!

You must be new here. Matty IS someone working in a museum, who repairs
ancient things, and the boiler he's talking about is undoubtedly a
restoration job. I suspect that replacing the boiler with a modern
version would defeat the whole purpose of the enterprise. Nevertheless
your point about the advisability of attempting a repair may well be
correct.

I now have this mental picture of a steam train, sans boiler, and modern
combi bolted to the front! Still saves shovelling coal, but might need a
long gas hose.

Efficiency is unimportant. We have thousands of years worth of coal
here. Shoveling coal keeps the driver fit.
And he can cook his lunch along the way:http://i53.tinypic.com/2nis6y1.jpg

The concerns about safety are noted.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Assuming you are in the UK and not Zimbabwe.
Well, any work on steam boilers has to be done by a specially
certificated welder to be legitimate. The ones I know wouldn't touch
this as the strength of such a weld is impossible to guarantee. If it
failed/came to light they would loose their certificate.
Which are expensive to obtain and they would have a liabilty for any
bad outcome.
What you need is a new part cast out of steel. The old one could be
used as a pattern. Yes, expensive.

On the whole you should consider yourself fortunate to have discovered
this defect and no-one has been injured as a result of it..

If you do some bodged repair that results in an accident/death/
serious injury, you could end up being fined without limit or put in
jail.


If you conceal this work from the insurance company and it later comes
to light they will decline liability. Which if this happens as the
outcome of ANY accident (even if unrelated) could have very serious
financial/legal consequenses for you personally and your organisation.

In article
,
harry writes

Assuming you are in the UK and not Zimbabwe.

Any regular who takes an interest in what is contributed here will know
which country the op hails from.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

And he can cook his lunch along the way:

Was the toasting fork made from "number 8 wire" by you or another "kiwi
bloke"?

And dare I say that for once it doesn't look to me to be wholly
authentic: needs a hand-filled banger to go on the end

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_8_wire for any who've not met it
in NZ

--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

Well I think Matty needs to get someone in. Even to suggest such a
thing is extremely foolish.

I have seen the aftermath of a steam flange failure, fortunately I was
not present.
Every window in the place was blown out and the boiler firer was badly
injured but fortunate to survive being burned and afterwards
suffocation..
It was an oil fired boiler, if it had been coal he would have surely
died.

A flange on a CAST IRON valve broke off. Afterwards we found the
casting was faulty in that the pipe bore was eccentric to the exterior
of the casting.
This was a quite new valve too never mind some corroded old rubbish.

Steam locomotive boilers are particularly prone to all sorts of
corrosion and fatigue isses due to using fresh water and poor water
treatment.
Riveted boilers are even worse.

A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world, perhaps excluding India which hasn't
got the good a track record ;!....
--
Tony Sayer

On Jul 15, 8:44 pm, fred wrote:
In article
,
harry writes

Assuming you are in the UK and not Zimbabwe.

Any regular who takes an interest in what is contributed here will know
which country the op hails from.

I have recently moved to Afghanistan, where this miniature steam
engine is on static display and never fired up. I have decided to make
a new pipe out of wood, as nobody will know the difference.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
[harry opined:]

A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world, perhaps excluding India which hasn't
got the good a track record ;!....

Don't know about rest of the world's record, but the last actual railway
boiler explosion in the UK seems to have been 1962 (Wonkypedia quoting
from a published source).

There was a blowback incident on the NYMR a few years ago, caused by an
exhaust steam weld that failed in the smokebox. Only minor injuries but
could have been much worse if the fireman had been firing at the time:
http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources...7_Grosmont.pdf

Melting of fusible plugs (thus releasing boiler pressure steam into the
firebox) has occurred a couple of times in preservation, but the RAIB
don't seem to have reports on them for some reason.

Nick
--
Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 29th March 2010)
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

On 15/07/2011 08:21, harry wrote:

Assuming you are in the UK and not Zimbabwe.

You've been around here long enough to know neither are true.

On Jul 15, 11:36 am, Clive George wrote:
On 15/07/2011 08:21, harry wrote:

Assuming you are in the UK and not Zimbabwe.

You've been around here long enough to know neither are true.

but now he's got his old soapbox out he'll be proper having his
say....sigh

Jim K

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:20:48 +0000, Nick Leverton wrote:

In article , tony sayer
wrote: [harry opined:]

A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world, perhaps excluding India which hasn't
got the good a track record ;!....

Don't know about rest of the world's record, but the last actual railway
boiler explosion in the UK seems to have been 1962 (Wonkypedia quoting
from a published source).

Boiler explosion or firebox collapse? Actual (external) explosion of the
boiler barrel seems to have been (commendanbly rare for over a century
- the benefits of elfandsafety gorn madde, of course..).

Firebox collapse is will be damned unpleasant for those on the engine,
but much less deletrious for the surrounding neighbourhood.

--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of Aberystwyth University "The
internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact with things
that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with dental
floss.." (Charlie Stross)

Welding - cast iron - boiler explosions???

shurely shome mistake

Boilers are not cast iron just for starters

On Jul 15, 10:26*am, tony sayer wrote:

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had *boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world,

US traction engine event - people killed, including bystanders. About
5 years ago.

On Jul 15, 11:20*am, Nick Leverton wrote:

Melting of fusible plugs (thus releasing boiler pressure steam into the
firebox)

Although dropping the plugs into the box is indeed "boiler pressure
steam", the plugs are sized small enough to be noticeable from the
footplate, but certainly not hazardous. In one famous boiler explosion
(the Coronation at Lamington in 1948) the plugs had dropped some time
earlier and no-one noticed. The 1962 explosion was very similar - a
Coronation where the plugs had dropped and finally the firebox
crownsheet softened and pulled over the stay heads.

On Jul 15, 11:21 pm, TBirdFrank
wrote:
Welding - cast iron - boiler explosions???

shurely shome mistake

Boilers are not cast iron just for starters

Superheater pipes in the smokebox may be cast iron. And some foolish
people might be tempted to weld those pipes.
If a pipe leaks, the chimney is right above so the steam can go up
there. And it can go back through the boiler pipes to the firebox,
where hopefully the external door will be shut.
Unless someone is cooking a sausage at the time.

On Jul 15, 11:54*am, Andy Breen wrote:

Boiler explosion or firebox collapse? Actual (external) explosion of the
boiler barrel seems to have been (commendanbly rare for over a century
- the benefits of elfandsafety gorn madde, of course..).

It actually seems to have had a single cause - the avoidance of
grooving, longitudinally inside the boiler barrel. Much of this was in
turn down to one simple design change - boilers went from being
wrapped with an overlap (then riveted) to being rolled as a butt joint
without any overlap, and the joint strengthened by an external cover
plate instead. Despite now being two joints and actually weaker (in
terms of simple strength) the old design had a problem of being non-
circular. Under pressure, flexing was concentrated in the groove of
this joint, which in turn led to erosion localised here.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:05:17 -0700, Matty F wrote:

shurely shome mistake

Boilers are not cast iron just for starters

Not (usually..[1]) in locomotive applications for many years, but
it was the standard material for many boilers - including locomotive
ones back in the earlies.

The first commercially successful locomotives - and the first
exported - had cast iron boilers, after all..

[1] Does the replica of the Gateshead machine that masquerades as the
Pen-y-Darren machine have a cast boiler? Trevithick certainly used
'em..

--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of Aberystwyth University "The
internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact with things
that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with dental
floss.." (Charlie Stross)

On Jul 15, 10:26*am, tony sayer wrote:
Well I think Matty needs to get someone in. Even to suggest such a
thing is extremely foolish.

I have seen the aftermath of a steam flange failure, fortunately I was
not present.
Every window in the place was blown out and the boiler firer was badly
injured but fortunate to survive being burned and afterwards
suffocation..
It was an oil fired boiler, if it had been coal he would have surely
died.

A flange on a CAST IRON valve broke off. Afterwards we found the
casting was faulty in that the pipe bore was eccentric to the exterior
of the casting.
This was a quite new valve too never mind some corroded old rubbish.

Steam locomotive boilers are particularly prone to all sorts of
corrosion and fatigue isses due to using fresh water and poor water
treatment.
Riveted boilers are even worse.

A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had *boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world, perhaps excluding India which hasn't
got the good a track record ;!....
--
Tony Sayer- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are plenty of examples in the past. There are no recent
examples because we have such high standards in first world countries.
But as you find the subject so riveting.
http://uk.ask.com/web?q=boiler+explo...rc=0&o=0&l=dir

On Jul 15, 11:20*am, Nick Leverton wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
[harry opined:]



A steam explosion inside a locomtive fire box would be virtually
guaranteed to kill the fireman/driver as all the burning coal could
well be blown out of the firing hole into the locomotive cab.

So in recent years have you any examples of preserved steam operated
railway operations that have had *boiler explosions that have injured or
killed people in the railway world, perhaps excluding India which hasn't
got the good a track record ;!....

Don't know about rest of the world's record, but the last actual railway
boiler explosion in the UK seems to have been 1962 (Wonkypedia quoting
from a published source).

There was a blowback incident on the NYMR a few years ago, caused by an
exhaust steam weld that failed in the smokebox. *Only minor injuries but
could have been much worse if the fireman had been firing at the time:http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources...042007_Grosmon...

Melting of fusible plugs (thus releasing boiler pressure steam into the
firebox) has occurred a couple of times in preservation, but the RAIB
don't seem to have reports on them for some reason.

Nick
--
Serendipity:http://www.leverton.org/blosxom(last update 29th March 2010)
* * * * "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
* * * * * * * * -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

Well if a fusible plug goes,that is a design situation, no-one is
likely to be killed.
I imagine they would get a fright. Serve them right for carelessness.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:05:40 -0700, Andy Dingley wrote:

On Jul 15, 11:54Â*am, Andy Breen wrote:

Boiler explosion or firebox collapse? Actual (external) explosion of
the boiler barrel seems to have been (commendanbly rare for over a
century - the benefits of elfandsafety gorn madde, of course..).

It actually seems to have had a single cause - the avoidance of
grooving, longitudinally inside the boiler barrel. Much of this was in
turn down to one simple design change - boilers went from being wrapped
with an overlap (then riveted) to being rolled as a butt joint without
any overlap, and the joint strengthened by an external cover plate
instead. Despite now being two joints and actually weaker (in terms of
simple strength) the old design had a problem of being non- circular.
Under pressure, flexing was concentrated in the groove of this joint,
which in turn led to erosion localised here.

Good point - and a major, major factor. Combine that with the gradual
vanishing of Salter Valves over the firebox (sooo easily adjusted with
a bit of wood to get some extra pressure...), more comprehensive
boiler inspection regimes and better quality water supplies[1] (many of
the explosions involved engines with boilers 40-odd years old with boiler
plates worn quite terrifyingly thin), and the change is explained..

[1] Water fom any convenient ditch, stream or mine drain - or even
salt water from the harbour -was commonly used in locomotive boilers
for a lot of the 19th century. Even when that stopped, it would have
left its mark in the boilers..

--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of Aberystwyth University "The
internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact with things
that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with dental
floss.." (Charlie Stross)