Hi,

It's fallen on me to replace the piping and rads for my parents'
central heating system.

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you
need both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible 22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I'm not interested the speed-fit type solutions, as I simply do not
trust them for long-term installations.

I can manage 10mm copper from the rads to the manifolds, but for the
main flow and return to the bolier, there's no way I can install 22mm
copper in the current pipe runs, which are the original black plastic
pipes. If I can find a flexible plastic solution, I can obviously just
tie the new pipe to the old and draw them into position.

Any advice appreciated.

Chris

On Jun 7, 8:25*pm, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi,

It's fallen on me to replace the piping and rads for my parents'
central heating system.

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you
need both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible *22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I'm not interested the speed-fit type solutions, as I simply do not
trust them for long-term installations.

I can manage 10mm copper from the rads to the manifolds, but for the
main flow and return to the bolier, there's no way I can install 22mm
copper in the current pipe runs, which are the original black plastic
pipes. If I can find a flexible plastic solution, I can obviously just
tie the new pipe to the old and draw them into position.

Any advice appreciated.

Chris

I could be wrong, but I think normally piping within a certain
distance of the boiler should be in copper.


NT

In message
,
cf-leeds writes
Hi,

It's fallen on me to replace the piping and rads for my parents'
central heating system.

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you
need both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.


Alkathene maybe?

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible 22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I'm not interested the speed-fit type solutions, as I simply do not
trust them for long-term installations.

You can get Speedfit and Hep20 (and presumably others) pipe in 22mm. I
used Hep20 on the Ch in install in my old house.

you use compression fittings on them - though it's easier to get the
push fit right. Remember you need a pipe insert, a bit of PTFE tape
around the olive helps with the seal (i think cos unlike copper it
doesn't always seal in the same way as the pipe is softer). And don't
over-tighten. It's easier to nip it up a little more if it weeps.

Cehck with the pipe you use over the connection to the boiler. when I
used Hep20 they said to use 1m of copper first - IIRC Speeedfit has the
same sort of stipulation.


--
Chris French

On 07/06/2011 20:31, Tabby wrote:
On Jun 7, 8:25 pm, wrote:

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible 22m pipe from the boiler flow& return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I could be wrong, but I think normally piping within a certain
distance of the boiler should be in copper.

That was definitely specified in the installation instructions for the
W-B boiler I had fitted not long ago. Can't remember the specified
distance - maybe 2m? It's a temperature issue, BTW: not pressure.

David

On Jun 7, 8:25*pm, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi,

It's fallen on me to replace the piping and rads for my parents'
central heating system.

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you
need both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible *22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I'm not interested the speed-fit type solutions, as I simply do not
trust them for long-term installations.

I can manage 10mm copper from the rads to the manifolds, but for the
main flow and return to the bolier, there's no way I can install 22mm
copper in the current pipe runs, which are the original black plastic
pipes. If I can find a flexible plastic solution, I can obviously just
tie the new pipe to the old and draw them into position.

Any advice appreciated.

Chris

Note that there is special plastic pipe for heating systems. It has
an "oxygen barrier", Keeps air from seeping through the porous
plastic. (Rots the radiators).
It's common to use copper pipe up to the manifold(s) where the pipes
go off to individual radiators.
Consider a constant pressure circulating pump (or a pressure relief
valve). System works much better.

In message
,
harry writes
On Jun 7, 8:25*pm, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi,

It's fallen on me to replace the piping and rads for my parents'
central heating system.

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you
need both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install, but would also
like to use a flexible *22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing
as a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

I'm not interested the speed-fit type solutions, as I simply do not
trust them for long-term installations.

I can manage 10mm copper from the rads to the manifolds, but for the
main flow and return to the bolier, there's no way I can install 22mm
copper in the current pipe runs, which are the original black plastic
pipes. If I can find a flexible plastic solution, I can obviously just
tie the new pipe to the old and draw them into position.

Any advice appreciated.

Chris

Note that there is special plastic pipe for heating systems. It has
an "oxygen barrier", Keeps air from seeping through the porous
plastic. (Rots the radiators).

Yup, though it seems often that is the only type sold, probably not
worth carrying both types.

It's common to use copper pipe up to the manifold(s) where the pipes
go off to individual radiators.

Though AIUI, the OP wants to use plastic on this run because of access
issues.

small point though, the OP says he wants flexible pipe so he can pull a
run through, without joints. Whilst the plastic pipe is flexible, it's
not flexible like a hosepipe . so depening on the ipe run could still be
difficult if it needs sharpish bends.
--
Chris French

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember chris French
saying something like:

Cehck with the pipe you use over the connection to the boiler. when I
used Hep20 they said to use 1m of copper first - IIRC Speeedfit has the
same sort of stipulation.

They all do.
I visited a boiler which had been installed by a cowboy who'd run the
Qualpex pipes right up to the boiler - amazing it lasted so long, but
even Qualpex couldn't stand it for more than a few months.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 12:25:37 -0700, cf-leeds wrote:

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s and
has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs radiator
pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday naturally),
causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I'm interested what type of pipe that was. I understand there were some
rigid solvent-weld PVC systems around about that time, and there was
Bartol Acorn - the forerunner of Hep2O, which IIRC was black.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you need
both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

Sounds like the Acorn pipe but that stuff should last forever, not
deteriorate and split. Can you see any markings on the pipe? It would be
very interesting to know what it was and, if it is Acorn, to get onto
Hepworth and ask them about it, maybe they'd be interested in having a
look at it.


I now want to use 10mm copper pipe for ease of install

yuk, but your choice!

... but would also
like to use a flexible 22m pipe from the boiler flow & return, to the
upstairs and downstairs manifolds.

Can anyone advise on whether this is possible. Is there such a thing as
a 22m plastic pipe, which can use a compression fitting onto the
existing bolier flow and return, as well as the manifolds ? This is a
vented system, so pressure shouldn't be too high.

You have to do the first 600mm or 1m from the boiler in copper (should
say in the boiler manual) but after that you can use any polybutylene
(PB) e.g. Hep2O, Polypipe or polyethelene cross-linked (PEX) e.g.
Speedfit
(they also do PB). I'd definitely get a feel of the pipe before you buy
it: 22mm, especially PEX, can be insanely springy and hard to work with
and some makes are easier than others. Most pipe on sale today is barrier
pipe but worth checking. For use with compression fittings you need plain
metal or plastic inserts, not Speedfit's types with rubber rings on them
(those are for use in push-fit fittings). I generally go for copper
rather than brass olives onto plastic pipe.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

People don't need to be born again - they need to grow up.

YAPH wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 12:25:37 -0700, cf-leeds wrote:

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s
and has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs
radiator pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday
naturally), causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I'm interested what type of pipe that was. I understand there were
some rigid solvent-weld PVC systems around about that time, and there
was Bartol Acorn - the forerunner of Hep2O, which IIRC was black.

It could be Acorn, which was black. I asked my mate when plastic pipe was
first used and got the following reply

"Without any authority I think the first waste pipes may have been made by a
Dutch firm called Wavin who were owned by Shell (who supplied the
polypropylene, and later ABS powder). Wavin set up a factory in Wiltshire
and sold waste products under the Osma trademark, and still do.

This was followed by PVC rainwater gutter and fittings, at which point Kevin
McDonald set up Bartol Plastics in Edlington in competition, later bought
out by the Hepworth Iron Company of Hazlehead, makers of clay pipes.
McDonald then left, set up McDee Plastics making skateboards etc, and then
created Polypipe, in direct competition with Bartol, Wavin, Hunter, Paragon,
and others.

Polybutylene pipe for drinking water was introduced by Bartol Plastics
around 1982 under the tradename Acorn, to complement the fittings introduced
in c1979; Acorn later was renamed Hep2o.

Hepworth Building Products was bought out by Wavin in 2005, just as I left."


--
Adam

On 11/06/2011 12:13, YAPH wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jun 2011 12:25:37 -0700, cf-leeds wrote:

The radiators are very old and badly sludged, as is the piping. The
piping is actually plastic piping, which was fitted in the late 70s and
has now started to deteriorate, to the extent that an upstairs radiator
pipe recently developed a crack (while they were on holiday naturally),
causing a serious flood. Hence time to rip out the lot.

I'm interested what type of pipe that was. I understand there were some
rigid solvent-weld PVC systems around about that time, and there was
Bartol Acorn - the forerunner of Hep2O, which IIRC was black.

I don't know what the official name for this black plastic tubing is,
but the only difference between it and copper seems to be that you need
both a nipple and olive for the compression fittings.

Sounds like the Acorn pipe but that stuff should last forever, not
deteriorate and split. Can you see any markings on the pipe? It would be
very interesting to know what it was and, if it is Acorn, to get onto
Hepworth and ask them about it, maybe they'd be interested in having a
look at it.

My parents' house was done in a black plastic (12mm, 10mm, 8mm and even
6mm OD) flexible tubing (supplied in long, coiled lengths), connected
with compression fittings - the "olives" actually fitted up the inside
of the tubes (8mm and up) and over the outside, leaving a short brass
stub protruding, of equal diameter to the tubing.

That was installed in 1972 and became brittle and very prone to
accidental damage about thirty years later.

SteveW