OG wrote:
On 07/04/2011 17:40, Skipweasel wrote:
In , noone_you-
says...
A bloke called Ridley was claiming in The Times the other day that it's
feasible to floodlight the PV array using off-peak electricity and
still
turn a profit at 3am!

While it sounds like a nice idea, I call bull on that. The efficiency
of floodlights is quite low and the efficiency of solar panels is, too.

You could cheat and just feed off-peak power back into the grid as if it
were solar.


Why pay off peak prices for 3.1p/kwh return?

its 45p a unit payment

Tabby wrote:
On Apr 7, 3:22 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:21:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
However, should the bloody thing pack up before its paid for itself, the
onus would be on you to get it fixed.
And I wouldn't mind betting that the guvmint might not at some stage
discover a legal loophole in that fitting a new panel to replace a
busted one, was a 'new install' and suddenly wasn't eligible for any FIT
at all.
That I can see happening, though isn't the FIT cash coming via a levy
on the electicity companies, rather than out of the treasury? It's
only been channeled through the government.
The guvmint REQUIRE the operators to pay FITS,. So instead of being a
state subsidy its a ..state subsidy, that doesn't appear on the guvmint
books.

Its like being required to employ deaf dumb and blind idiots at inflated
wages, by passing a law, all the expense falls SomeWhere Else.(TM)

This allows the renewables assholes to say 'but we are not subsidised,
honest guv!'

However the effect is a tax on electricity consumers that gets passed
directly to antisocial people installing useless PV panels, at the
pubilic's expense,



Cos the FITS wont last very long, if what's happening all over Europe
and the world, is anything to go by
Well they have started chipping away at what is eligiable for FIT
payments already. Give it a few years and they will be gone for new
installs. As some one said it's a bit of race to get 'em in now
before the FIT are either removed or become less financially
attractive. You are still taking a gamble on not having significant
maintenance costs though.
Exactly, If the thing goes phut before its even paid for itself, you are
out of pocket.

I wont cry.

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.


I am struggling with the whole FIT/ROC thing so you may be right.
NT

Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.

Unless you already have a smart meter, you are deemed to have
exported half of this, the export tariff is now 3.1p per kWh.

You also save by reducing your power usage whilst you are
generating. There is scope for trying to match usage to
generation, so you actually use 100%, though the return is small
by comparison with FIT, so exotic schemes like modulating
immersion heater load are somewhat uneconomic.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"Tabby" wrote in message
...

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

AIUI that is true, they don't meter what is generated, only what is put back
into the grid.
You get paid extra for what goes back.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 01:11:46 +0100, OG wrote:

The FIT is based on a calculated power basis, which uses the alignment,
location and area of panels to provide a nominal annual power rating.
This is what earns the higher (Generation Tarrif) rate per kwh.

As I understand it *all* power generated by the panels attracts the
43p/unit generation tariff(*). You can use all this power yourself
thus not using any grid power (add 10p/unit).

The excess electricity generated and actually sent into the Grid earns
the Export Tariff of (gosh) 3.1p per kwh.

Only an installation without proper "smart" metering would have their
export guesstimated at 50% of generation. The export tariff is an
*additional* payment so the effective total price paid for exported
power is nearer 56p/unit (43 + 10 + 3).

(*) Fixed for the 25 year period at the rate current when you join
the scheme. Only the entry rate is RPI linked.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:38:57 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 01:11:46 +0100, OG wrote:

The FIT is based on a calculated power basis, which uses the alignment,
location and area of panels to provide a nominal annual power rating.
This is what earns the higher (Generation Tarrif) rate per kwh.

As I understand it *all* power generated by the panels attracts the
43p/unit generation tariff(*). You can use all this power yourself
thus not using any grid power (add 10p/unit).

The excess electricity generated and actually sent into the Grid earns
the Export Tariff of (gosh) 3.1p per kwh.

Only an installation without proper "smart" metering would have their
export guesstimated at 50% of generation. The export tariff is an
*additional* payment so the effective total price paid for exported
power is nearer 56p/unit (43 + 10 + 3).

If you're not using it you'ld be paid 46p per unit (43+3).

(*) Fixed for the 25 year period at the rate current when you join
the scheme. Only the entry rate is RPI linked.

No, the rate is inflation linked for the duration of the contract.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 09:20:48 +0100, Bill Taylor wrote:

Only an installation without proper "smart" metering would have
their
export guesstimated at 50% of generation. The export tariff is an
*additional* payment so the effective total price paid for
exported
power is nearer 56p/unit (43 + 10 + 3).

If you're not using it you'ld be paid 46p per unit (43+3).

Yeah, brain fart.

(*) Fixed for the 25 year period at the rate current when you join
the scheme. Only the entry rate is RPI linked.

No, the rate is inflation linked for the duration of the contract.

Not according
to:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...ergy/Sell-your
-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#howitworks

"1. Generation tariff - a set rate paid by the energy supplier for
each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. This rate will change
each year for new entrants to the scheme (except for the first 2
years), but once you join you will continue on the same tariff for 20
years, or 25 years in the case of solar electricity (PV)."

I read that to mean that for the first two years of the scheme the
tariff is RPI linked ie up to installations registered before end
March 2012 but once you join you are on that tariff for the duration.
The rate for new registrations in a given period *does* change with
the RPI, or not when you read:


http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Pages/MoreIn...fitfs_energy%2
0prices%20update%20FS.pdf&refer=Media/FactSheets

In year 3 (1/4/12 to 31/3/13) the rates for = 4kW retrofit PV drop
from 41.3 to 37.8p/kWHr. = 4kW new build drops from 36.1 to
33p/kWhr. In fact all PV rates drop and so does wind up to 100kW.
Anaerobic Digestion, Hydro, MicroCHP, wind 100kW and plant
transferred from the ROC all stay the same.

It is also contradictory, or at least unclear, in it's language:

"Once registered for FITs, the generation tariff received will last
for the tariff lifetime and be adjusted annually for inflation".

How can something "last for the tariff lifetime" but still "be
adjusted annually for inflation"? Weasel words if ever there where
any.

"The Energy Saving Trust and the Carbon Trust have been nominated by
the Government to provide public information on the scheme and advice
on how to apply."


http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabili...Pages/fits.asp
x

So one assumes the information quoted in the "How it works" from the
Energy Savings Trust is correct.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:43:19 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 09:20:48 +0100, Bill Taylor wrote:

Only an installation without proper "smart" metering would have
their
export guesstimated at 50% of generation. The export tariff is an
*additional* payment so the effective total price paid for
exported
power is nearer 56p/unit (43 + 10 + 3).

If you're not using it you'ld be paid 46p per unit (43+3).

Yeah, brain fart.

(*) Fixed for the 25 year period at the rate current when you join
the scheme. Only the entry rate is RPI linked.

No, the rate is inflation linked for the duration of the contract.

Not according
to:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...ergy/Sell-your
-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#howitworks

"1. Generation tariff - a set rate paid by the energy supplier for
each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. This rate will change
each year for new entrants to the scheme (except for the first 2
years), but once you join you will continue on the same tariff for 20
years, or 25 years in the case of solar electricity (PV)."

I read that to mean that for the first two years of the scheme the
tariff is RPI linked ie up to installations registered before end
March 2012 but once you join you are on that tariff for the duration.
The rate for new registrations in a given period *does* change with
the RPI, or not when you read:


http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Pages/MoreIn...fitfs_energy%2
0prices%20update%20FS.pdf&refer=Media/FactSheets

In year 3 (1/4/12 to 31/3/13) the rates for = 4kW retrofit PV drop
from 41.3 to 37.8p/kWHr. = 4kW new build drops from 36.1 to
33p/kWhr. In fact all PV rates drop and so does wind up to 100kW.
Anaerobic Digestion, Hydro, MicroCHP, wind 100kW and plant
transferred from the ROC all stay the same.

It is also contradictory, or at least unclear, in it's language:

"Once registered for FITs, the generation tariff received will last
for the tariff lifetime and be adjusted annually for inflation".

How can something "last for the tariff lifetime" but still "be
adjusted annually for inflation"? Weasel words if ever there where
any.

"The Energy Saving Trust and the Carbon Trust have been nominated by
the Government to provide public information on the scheme and advice
on how to apply."


http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabili...Pages/fits.asp
x

So one assumes the information quoted in the "How it works" from the
Energy Savings Trust is correct.

From your last link

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which means
that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The tariff rates
are adjusted annually by the percentage increase or decrease in the
Retail Price Index over the 12 month period ending on 31 December of
the previous year. "

which does say that the tariffs in payment increase with inflation.
How long it will be before they change it is anyones guess.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 11:25:41 +0100, Bill Taylor wrote:

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which means
that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The tariff rates
are adjusted annually by the percentage increase or decrease in the
Retail Price Index over the 12 month period ending on 31 December of
the previous year. "

which does say that the tariffs in payment increase with inflation.
How long it will be before they change it is anyones guess.

Yes it does say that the tarifs increase with RPI, except for the
period 1/4/12 to 31/3/13 when a number of them drop and most stay the
same... How can they set those now well before the RPI is known?

And watch the weasel words, it *does not* say the tarrif of a
registered system will change in line with the new entrant tarrif.
Other parts a very clear that "... once you join you will continue on
the same tariff for 20years, or 25 years in the case of solar
electricity (PV)."

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 11:25:41 +0100, Bill Taylor wrote:

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which means
that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The tariff rates
are adjusted annually by the percentage increase or decrease in the
Retail Price Index over the 12 month period ending on 31 December of
the previous year. "

which does say that the tariffs in payment increase with inflation.
How long it will be before they change it is anyones guess.

They were increased to the present level on April 1st 2011.

Yes it does say that the tarifs increase with RPI, except for the
period 1/4/12 to 31/3/13 when a number of them drop and most stay the
same... How can they set those now well before the RPI is known?

And watch the weasel words, it *does not* say the tarrif of a
registered system will change in line with the new entrant tarrif.
Other parts a very clear that "... once you join you will continue on
the same tariff for 20years, or 25 years in the case of solar
electricity (PV)."

What you don't seem to have appreciated is that there are two
different things going on.

Firstly, the initial FIT for _new_ applicants will decrease in
stages as time passes. A table has been published, but is likely
to be reviewed sooner rather than later. (This was rationalised
as being because increased take-up should bring costs down.) You
only refer to this table at the time you join up. After that it
has no relevance to your FIT.

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples ;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:50:12 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples ;-)

Please cite an official source that states that in plain, unambigous,
english. I've not found anything that does.

I've found references to the tariff *for new registrants* varying
either at the whim of the government and/or in line with RPI and
statements that the rate you join at is the rate you have for the
next 20 or 25 years.

I've seen nothing that, unambigously, states that the rate you start
with is linked to the RPI on a year on year basis. Maybe I'm being to
cynical but without it in black and white...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Apr 8, 12:50*pm, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples *;-)

i am confuised abotu teh technical side of this. To sell elec to teh
grid i clearly need some kind of box t oconnect it with. but yo ualso
seem to be able t oclaim for the elec generated even if yo uuse it all
yourself.

So, suppose I put some PV panels on the house and use all the
electricity myself, not connecting it to the grid at all. Am I still
allowed to claim the 43p/unit based on the nominal output of the Pv
array?

Surely it can't mean that can it?

Robert

RobertL wrote:
On Apr 8, 12:50 pm, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples ;-)

i am confuised abotu teh technical side of this. To sell elec to teh
grid i clearly need some kind of box t oconnect it with. but yo ualso
seem to be able t oclaim for the elec generated even if yo uuse it all
yourself.

So, suppose I put some PV panels on the house and use all the
electricity myself, not connecting it to the grid at all. Am I still
allowed to claim the 43p/unit based on the nominal output of the Pv
array?

Surely it can't mean that can it?


I think it does.

But I am not sure.

Robert

On Apr 8, 12:50 pm, Chris J Dixon wrote:


Dave Liquorice wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.


Simples ;-)

Sorry, now with proper spelling:

I am confused about the technical side of this. To sell electricity
to the
grid I clearly need some kind of box to connect it with. But you
also
seem to be able to claim for the electricity generated even if you use
it all
yourself.

So, suppose I put some PV panels on the house and use all the
electricity myself, not connecting it to the grid at all. Am I still
allowed to claim the 43p/unit based on the nominal output of the Pv
array?


Surely it can't mean that can it?


Robert

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:50:12 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples ;-)

Please cite an official source that states that in plain, unambigous,
english. I've not found anything that does.

I've found references to the tariff *for new registrants* varying
either at the whim of the government and/or in line with RPI and
statements that the rate you join at is the rate you have for the
next 20 or 25 years.

I've seen nothing that, unambigously, states that the rate you start
with is linked to the RPI on a year on year basis. Maybe I'm being to
cynical but without it in black and white...

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabili...ages/fits.aspx

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which
means that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The
tariff rates are adjusted annually by the percentage increase or
decrease in the Retail Price Index over the 12 month period
ending on 31 December of the previous year."

Will that do?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 07:58:53 -0700 (PDT), RobertL wrote:

So, suppose I put some PV panels on the house and use all the
electricity myself, not connecting it to the grid at all. Am I still
allowed to claim the 43p/unit based on the nominal output of the Pv
array?

Surely it can't mean that can it?

Well you can't simply DIY you have to use an installer registered
with the MCS (http://www.microgenerationcertification.org) or have
the installation certfied by Ofgem. It has to meet certain critera,
one of which may well be a grid connection.

But essentaily, yes, fit a load of PV panels and get paid 43p/unit
for each unit they generate, even if you use all that power yourself.
Any power you feed to the grid attracts an extra 3p/unit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

You also save by reducing your power usage whilst you are
generating. There is scope for trying to match usage to
generation, so you actually use 100%, though the return is small
by comparison with FIT, so exotic schemes like modulating
immersion heater load are somewhat uneconomic.

Chris

I've been experimenting with a variable immersion heater load....and
then last few days weather has allowed my first proper test.
(I was inspired by this thread http://tinyurl.com/6hw7sbt on the
Navitron forums)

It is very effective at making free hot water, but honestly the tank is
"full" after about 10kWh. There would be no point trying to use 100% of
the (otherwise exported) leccy....because we could never use that much
hot water! Does mean the gas boiler can stay off completely on sunny
days.

On 08/04/2011 07:08, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.

Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT is
based on calculated capacity.

Unless you already have a smart meter, you are deemed to have
exported half of this, the export tariff is now 3.1p per kWh.

You also save by reducing your power usage whilst you are
generating. There is scope for trying to match usage to
generation, so you actually use 100%, though the return is small
by comparison with FIT, so exotic schemes like modulating
immersion heater load are somewhat uneconomic.

Chris

On 08/04/2011 06:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
OG wrote:
On 07/04/2011 17:40, Skipweasel wrote:
In , noone_you-
says...
A bloke called Ridley was claiming in The Times the other day that
it's
feasible to floodlight the PV array using off-peak electricity and
still
turn a profit at 3am!

While it sounds like a nice idea, I call bull on that. The efficiency
of floodlights is quite low and the efficiency of solar panels is, too.

You could cheat and just feed off-peak power back into the grid as if it
were solar.


Why pay off peak prices for 3.1p/kwh return?

its 45p a unit payment

No it isn't.

My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated for
the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on location,
alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you won't get
more than the calculated figure.

Shining lights on panels would only contribute to the what you can earn
from the Export Tariff - which is 3.1p

OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 06:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
OG wrote:
On 07/04/2011 17:40, Skipweasel wrote:
In , noone_you-
says...
A bloke called Ridley was claiming in The Times the other day that
it's
feasible to floodlight the PV array using off-peak electricity and
still
turn a profit at 3am!

While it sounds like a nice idea, I call bull on that. The efficiency
of floodlights is quite low and the efficiency of solar panels is,
too.

You could cheat and just feed off-peak power back into the grid as
if it
were solar.


Why pay off peak prices for 3.1p/kwh return?

its 45p a unit payment

No it isn't.

My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated for
the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on location,
alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you won't get
more than the calculated figure.


so you can take it down and install it somewhere else for another 43p
per imaginary unit?


Shining lights on panels would only contribute to the what you can earn
from the Export Tariff - which is 3.1p

On 08/04/2011 19:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 06:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
OG wrote:
On 07/04/2011 17:40, Skipweasel wrote:
In , noone_you-
says...
A bloke called Ridley was claiming in The Times the other day that
it's
feasible to floodlight the PV array using off-peak electricity and
still
turn a profit at 3am!

While it sounds like a nice idea, I call bull on that. The efficiency
of floodlights is quite low and the efficiency of solar panels is,
too.

You could cheat and just feed off-peak power back into the grid as
if it
were solar.


Why pay off peak prices for 3.1p/kwh return?

its 45p a unit payment

No it isn't.

My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated
for the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on
location, alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you
won't get more than the calculated figure.


so you can take it down and install it somewhere else for another 43p
per imaginary unit?


Whatever

On 08/04/2011 6:54 PM, OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:08, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.

Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT is
based on calculated capacity.

Yes. Everything you need to know:

http://tinyurl.com/39bm898

Vortex10 wrote:
On 08/04/2011 6:54 PM, OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:08, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.

Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT is
based on calculated capacity.

Yes. Everything you need to know:

http://tinyurl.com/39bm898

That URL actually says No. The FIT is not based on calculated capacity.
The optimistic renewables lobby words on the income you MIGHT gain,
however, *are*.

"You will require an additional electricity meter to measure the
electricity that your system is generating (known as a total generation
meter), and also to measure how much is being fed back into the
electricity grid (if not deemed, this is known as an export meter or may
be called a feed-in, feed-out meter)."

So if its a dark day in December, and your panels are covered in
bird**** and the cement dust from next doors construction site turning
in the late afternoon drizzle into precast concrete*, you may find
yourself a lot less in pocket than you thought.


*as happened to my father in laws solar water installation. The cost of
cleaning it wiped out 18 months of putative 'income'

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 19:30:25 +0100, Vortex10
wrote:

On 08/04/2011 6:54 PM, OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:08, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.

Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT is
based on calculated capacity.

Yes. Everything you need to know:

http://tinyurl.com/39bm898

"Once you have a microgeneration technology installed "

What's a microgeneration technology, I wonder?

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 19:30:25 +0100, Vortex10
wrote:

On 08/04/2011 6:54 PM, OG wrote:
On 08/04/2011 07:08, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tabby wrote:

I quiet agree with you on this. Just one small detail: if I've
understood correctly, FIT payments arent connected to energy really
produced, so the system can be as dead as a parrot, you don't need to
fix it to get paid.

No, you haven't understood correctly.

There is a separate meter which measures what is generated. You
are paid the FIT, now 43.3p per kWh, based on this meter.
Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT is
based on calculated capacity.
Yes. Everything you need to know:

http://tinyurl.com/39bm898

"Once you have a microgeneration technology installed "

What's a microgeneration technology, I wonder?

sub 5KW I think it says.

In message , OG
writes
On 08/04/2011 06:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
OG wrote:
On 07/04/2011 17:40, Skipweasel wrote:
In , noone_you-
says...
A bloke called Ridley was claiming in The Times the other day that
it's
feasible to floodlight the PV array using off-peak electricity and
still
turn a profit at 3am!

While it sounds like a nice idea, I call bull on that. The efficiency
of floodlights is quite low and the efficiency of solar panels is, too.

You could cheat and just feed off-peak power back into the grid as if it
were solar.


Why pay off peak prices for 3.1p/kwh return?

its 45p a unit payment

No it isn't.

My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated for
the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on
location, alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you
won't get more than the calculated figure.


No, my friends had some installed last year, that's not how it works for
them.

The production of electricity is measured using the meter. Like (AIUI)
most domestic installs the meter isn't smart enough to track what is
actually used and what is exported so they are deemed to export 505 of
this and so get paid the FIT on this 50% of the amount generated.


--
Chris French

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 19:43:44 +0100, Frank Erskine wrote:

"Once you have a microgeneration technology installed "

What's a microgeneration technology, I wonder?

A system installed by an MCS acredited installer?

http://www.microgenerationcertification.org

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 19:41:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Can you provide evidence for this? My information is that the FIT
is
based on calculated capacity.

Yes. Everything you need to know:

http://tinyurl.com/39bm898

That URL actually says No.

I think we are getting our yes's an no's confused. B-)

Yes as in here is the evidence that no the FIT is not based on
calculated capacity.

The FIT is fixed on an annual basis at the end of December for new
systems regsistered from the following April to March, currently the
40 odd p/unit. I believe to get the FIT in the first place the system
must have a meter in the feed from the PV panels.

The Export tariff is also fixed, currently 3p/unit and paid for all
metered units exported to the grid on top of the FIT. In the abscence
of an export meter you are deemed to export 50% of what you generate.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 19:46:58 +0100, chris French wrote:

My information is that they don't measure the electricity
generated for
the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on
location, alignment and area. Once your installation is in place
you
won't get more than the calculated figure.

No, my friends had some installed last year, that's not how it works for
them.

The production of electricity is measured using the meter. Like (AIUI)
most domestic installs the meter isn't smart enough to track what is
actually used and what is exported so they are deemed to export 505 of
this and so get paid the FIT on this 50% of the amount generated.

Ooo, another variation. B-)

I think you'll find that your friends get paid the 40 odd p/unit FIT
on the total metered generation and, as they have no export meter, an
additional 3p/unit export rate based on 50% of the total generation.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

But essentaily, yes, fit a load of PV panels and get paid 43p/unit
for each unit they generate, even if you use all that power yourself.
Any power you feed to the grid attracts an extra 3p/unit.

Unless you have a smart meter, (in which case they pay 3.1p for
every unit actually measured as exported) you are "deemed" to
have exported half of the amount generated. If you can contrive
to use it all you still get paid for half.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Chris J Dixon wrote:
If you can contrive
to use it all you still get paid for half.


Not very hard really. except on sunny days in summer
Chris

Chris J Dixon wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

But essentaily, yes, fit a load of PV panels and get paid 43p/unit
for each unit they generate, even if you use all that power yourself.
Any power you feed to the grid attracts an extra 3p/unit.

Unless you have a smart meter, (in which case they pay 3.1p for
every unit actually measured as exported) you are "deemed" to
have exported half of the amount generated. If you can contrive
to use it all you still get paid for half.


Run that one past me again: does this mean that a household with 4kW(e)
capacity on the roof, no smart meter, generating some 2500 kWhrs/annum is
paid the fit plus 3p/kWhr on 1250kWhrs?

That gives small (difference between current tarriff and 3p) incentive to
shift consumption to daylight hours, or am I missing something?



AJH

Run that one past me again: does this mean that a household with 4kW(e)
capacity on the roof, no smart meter, generating some 2500 kWhrs/annum is
paid the fit plus 3p/kWhr on 1250kWhrs?


Yup.

A 4kWp system is more likely to exceed 3500 kWH per year, and at sunny
midday is likely to generate ~ 3.5kW. Approaching 30 kWh total per sunny
Summer day

In a normal 4kWp domestic installation I expect well over 50% will be
exported over a year so when the export is "deemed" it makes sense to
run washing machines etc. when the sun is out because the leccy is
basically free and it makes no difference to the export money.

You REALLY win if you have PV and and old fashioned mechanical meter (as
I did for a few months). Then your bill "winds down" with export PLUS
you get deemed export too.

Small video he http://home.btconnect.com/vortex/backwardsmeter.wmv



That gives small (difference between current tarriff and 3p) incentive to
shift consumption to daylight hours, or am I missing something?



AJH

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:31:43 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

Once you have got your installation registered, the initial FIT
is set, and the annual inflation adjustment is calculated based
upon that value.

Simples ;-)

Please cite an official source that states that in plain,
unambigous,
english. I've not found anything that does.

I've found references to the tariff *for new registrants* varying
either at the whim of the government and/or in line with RPI and
statements that the rate you join at is the rate you have for the
next 20 or 25 years.

I've seen nothing that, unambigously, states that the rate you
start
with is linked to the RPI on a year on year basis. Maybe I'm being
to
cynical but without it in black and white...

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabili...ages/fits.aspx

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which means
that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The tariff rates are
adjusted annually by the percentage increase or decrease in the Retail
Price Index over the 12 month period ending on 31 December of the
previous year."

Will that do?

Not really as it doesn't fit with what the government approved advice
site (Energywatch)
says:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...ergy/Sell-your
-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#howitworks

How the scheme works

If you are eligible to receive the FIT then you will benefit in 3 ways:

1. Generation tariff a set rate paid by the energy supplier for each
unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. This rate will change each
year for new entrants to the scheme (except for the first 2 years), but
once you join you will continue on the same tariff for 20 years, or 25
years in the case of solar electricity (PV).

However follwing the paragraph you quote there is this:

From 1 April 2011 all electricity generated and exported by accredited
installations will receive the adjusted tariff. To ensure the correct
tariff is applied to all generation and export from 1 April 2011, FIT
Licensees will be required to calculate what proportion of electricity
has been generated and exported until 31 March 2011, and what proportion
has been generated and exported from 1 April 2011. To facilitate this
process, generators may be asked to take a meter reading on 31 March
2011 and submit it in accordance with instructions provided by their FIT
Licensee.

Lefthand doesn't know what the righthand is doing...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:31:43 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:


http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabili...ages/fits.aspx

"Both generation and export tariff rates are index-linked which means
that they will increase or decrease with inflation. The tariff rates are
adjusted annually by the percentage increase or decrease in the Retail
Price Index over the 12 month period ending on 31 December of the
previous year."

Will that do?

Not really as it doesn't fit with what the government approved advice
site (Energywatch)
says:

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...ergy/Sell-your
-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme#howitworks

However follwing the paragraph you quote there is this:

From 1 April 2011 all electricity generated and exported by accredited
installations will receive the adjusted tariff. To ensure the correct
tariff is applied to all generation and export from 1 April 2011, FIT
Licensees will be required to calculate what proportion of electricity
has been generated and exported until 31 March 2011, and what proportion
has been generated and exported from 1 April 2011. To facilitate this
process, generators may be asked to take a meter reading on 31 March
2011 and submit it in accordance with instructions provided by their FIT
Licensee.

Lefthand doesn't know what the righthand is doing...

There is a way that both can be true. If they measure the RPI in
the period ending December (which won't be immediately
available), they can use that to set the FIT for the following
April.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

In message on Fri, 8 Apr
2011, chris French wrote
My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated
for the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on
location, alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you
won't get more than the calculated figure.


No, my friends had some installed last year, that's not how it works
for them.

The production of electricity is measured using the meter. Like (AIUI)
most domestic installs the meter isn't smart enough to track what is
actually used and what is exported so they are deemed to export 505 of
this and so get paid the FIT on this 50% of the amount generated.

I've got my FIT statement for the quarter ending December 23rd in front
of me:

Generated 138KW multiplied by 41.3p per unit - £56.99
Because I have no export meter I'm deemed to have exported 50% of what I
generate ie: 69KW multiplied by 3p per unit. - £2.07 - Grand total for
quarter £59.06

Next year the 41.3p per unit will be increased in line with R/CPI? And
there will be a new purchase rate for the exported amount (still assumed
to be 50% of generated until a smart meter is installed).

The per unit amounts above are the same for all micro generators where
the theoretical max output is less than 4KW

Of course the above takes no account of my reduced energy consumption
which I'm not prepared to quote till I've been running for a full year
at least - but it looks signficant.

My system is quite a low output one (although I'm thinking of increasing
the number of panels as it seems to be so financially attractive.)

Regards, Colin
--
Colin Brook - Winchester (UK)

Fax:+44(0)8701641293 Mobile:07976258703

Colin Brook wrote:
In message on Fri, 8 Apr
2011, chris French wrote
My information is that they don't measure the electricity generated
for the 43.3p Feed In Tariff. That is a calculated figure based on
location, alignment and area. Once your installation is in place you
won't get more than the calculated figure.


No, my friends had some installed last year, that's not how it works
for them.

The production of electricity is measured using the meter. Like (AIUI)
most domestic installs the meter isn't smart enough to track what is
actually used and what is exported so they are deemed to export 505 of
this and so get paid the FIT on this 50% of the amount generated.

I've got my FIT statement for the quarter ending December 23rd in front
of me:

Generated 138KW multiplied by 41.3p per unit - £56.99
Because I have no export meter I'm deemed to have exported 50% of what I
generate ie: 69KW multiplied by 3p per unit. - £2.07 - Grand total for
quarter £59.06

Next year the 41.3p per unit will be increased in line with R/CPI? And
there will be a new purchase rate for the exported amount (still assumed
to be 50% of generated until a smart meter is installed).

The per unit amounts above are the same for all micro generators where
the theoretical max output is less than 4KW

Of course the above takes no account of my reduced energy consumption
which I'm not prepared to quote till I've been running for a full year
at least - but it looks signficant.

yep. it will be at say 10p a unit, as much as 50 quid a year.

Golly.

My system is quite a low output one (although I'm thinking of increasing
the number of panels as it seems to be so financially attractive.)


****ing parasite.
Why should I be forced to pay 41p3 a unit for your electricity when I
can buy it from Sizewell for 6p.

Regards, Colin

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:48:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

****ing parasite.
Why should I be forced to pay 41p3 a unit for your electricity when I
can buy it from Sizewell for 6p.

Indeed. Surely there is an opportunity for a retail energy company
that only contracts for particular energy sources? Sort of like a
greenwash company but 'different' I will willingly pay for long
term secure energy preferably from indigenous sources but with zero
wind or solar PV contribution.

I don't want a future over reliant on imported gas or coal, or a none
future plagued by spastic wind turbines, or being blinded by roofs
covered in heavily subsidised PV.

--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:48:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

****ing parasite.
Why should I be forced to pay 41p3 a unit for your electricity when I
can buy it from Sizewell for 6p.

Indeed. Surely there is an opportunity for a retail energy company
that only contracts for particular energy sources? Sort of like a
greenwash company but 'different' I will willingly pay for long
term secure energy preferably from indigenous sources but with zero
wind or solar PV contribution.

That would be any normal tariff ATM.
There is essentially no contribution from wind and solar.
What little there is has been sold many times over to mugs on green tariffs.
What they need to do is cut off the supplies to the green tariff users when
there isn't any green energy available, then they will understand the
problems they are creating.


I don't want a future over reliant on imported gas or coal, or a none
future plagued by spastic wind turbines, or being blinded by roofs
covered in heavily subsidised PV.

There has been a survey of "accessible" coal been going on for the last year
or so, you may have to suffer traffic problems from open cast coal mining
soon.

dennis@home wrote:

What they need to do is cut off the supplies to the green tariff users
when there isn't any green energy available, then they will understand
the problems they are creating.


Ah a smart meter that cuts the greens off when its cold dark and windless.

Almost worth having.