I watched the BBC news tonight and 2 things struck me.

I used to work at BAe Systems at Warton Lancashire from 1978 to 1999 and
never once was the runway snowed/iced up to close it. Once ploughed, it
was treated with something called 'prills'. It was made from cattle pee
and the smell was awful.

Remember that very bad, cold and long winter we had in the early
eighties, our snow ploughs even went out onto the roads and made the
route from Preston to Blackpool passable. Presumably, to get the workers
to work.

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the footpath,
with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a foot of snow
on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car following him.

Dave

Dave wrote:
I watched the BBC news tonight and 2 things struck me.

I used to work at BAe Systems at Warton Lancashire from 1978 to 1999 and
never once was the runway snowed/iced up to close it. Once ploughed, it
was treated with something called 'prills'. It was made from cattle pee
and the smell was awful.

Remember that very bad, cold and long winter we had in the early
eighties, our snow ploughs even went out onto the roads and made the
route from Preston to Blackpool passable. Presumably, to get the workers
to work.

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the footpath,
with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a foot of snow
on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car following him.


Not a lot.
Driver like that dont go over 3mph when the road is white.

Dave

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:23:17 +0000, Dave wrote:

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the footpath,
with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a foot of snow
on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car following him.

Yes, I've seen a few of those. And they don't hang around. So when the
warmth inside the car has melted the region in contact with the roof, and
they touch the brakes...they suddenly can't see where they're
going.........

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 01/12/2010 19:23, Dave wrote:
I watched the BBC news tonight and 2 things struck me.

I used to work at BAe Systems at Warton Lancashire from 1978 to 1999 and
never once was the runway snowed/iced up to close it. Once ploughed, it
was treated with something called 'prills'. It was made from cattle pee
and the smell was awful.

I know aircraft de-icing fluid stank something chronic and was to be
avoided at all costs, IIRC it was hot pigs ****, urea or something like
that.

Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.



Remember that very bad, cold and long winter we had in the early
eighties, our snow ploughs even went out onto the roads and made the
route from Preston to Blackpool passable. Presumably, to get the workers
to work.

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the footpath,
with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a foot of snow
on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car following him.

Dave

On 01/12/2010 22:11, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-01, wrote:
I watched the BBC news tonight and 2 things struck me.

I used to work at BAe Systems at Warton Lancashire from 1978 to 1999 and
never once was the runway snowed/iced up to close it. Once ploughed, it
was treated with something called 'prills'. It was made from cattle pee
and the smell was awful.

Prilling is a packaging method, rather than a substance, per se. You can
get all kinds of things prilled;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prill

At one time I had a nice standing order making prill nozzles for a
fertiliser manufacturer. The specification for the internal bore was
that it should just pass a standard paper clip wire, to achieve which I
had to have 5,000 metres of stainless steel tube specially drawn.

Colin Bignell

Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:23:17 +0000, Dave wrote:

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the
footpath, with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a
foot of snow on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car
following him.

Yes, I've seen a few of those. And they don't hang around. So when the
warmth inside the car has melted the region in contact with the roof,
and they touch the brakes...they suddenly can't see where they're
going.........


So it will be ready to fall off just about the time I get onto the
motorway...

--
Adam

On 1 Dec 2010 22:39:42 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 19:23:17 +0000, Dave wrote:

The second thing I noticed was a driver setting off from the footpath,
with his windows cleared, but had what looked like over a foot of snow
on his roof. Imagine what that could do to a car following him.

Yes, I've seen a few of those. And they don't hang around. So when the
warmth inside the car has melted the region in contact with the roof, and
they touch the brakes...they suddenly can't see where they're
going.........

They don't look where they're going anyway, so it makes no difference.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

Jethro wrote:
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

I remember Johannesburg airport being closed for snow.

No snow plough for 3000 miles..

On Dec 2, 9:39*am, Jethro wrote:
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

The Mound, its a downhill section of road, in Edinburgh had, 1960`s
electric heating cable, experimental under road heating , given up on
becuase it created clouds of steam.

Cheers
Adam

On Dec 2, 12:10 pm, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Dec 2, 9:39 am, Jethro wrote:

Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

The Mound, its a downhill section of road, in Edinburgh had, 1960`s
electric heating cable, experimental under road heating , given up on
becuase it created clouds of steam.

sounds like they overdid it with the current somewhat...

Jim K

On 12/2/2010 7:10 AM, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Dec 2, 9:39 am, wrote:
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads& railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

The Mound, its a downhill section of road, in Edinburgh had, 1960`s
electric heating cable, experimental under road heating , given up on
becuase it created clouds of steam.

I lived a very short distance from the Mound in the late 60s - I don't
remember the steam, but I also don't remember the Mound icing-up.
I'm pretty sure the roadway was still cobblestones then - did they lift
sections of cobbles to lay the cables?

On 01/12/2010 23:59, Vernon wrote:
....
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

It is easy to say they should have more equipment. It is less easy to be
in the position of having to justify expenditure on something that may
only be used once a decade. Even if they did have the equipment it might
not make any difference. Gatwick was advised to close by the Police
today because they were closing most of the roads around it while
yesterday the railway station was closed by a train that broke down on
an important set of points.

Colin Bignell

On Dec 2, 1:16*pm, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 01/12/2010 23:59, Vernon wrote:
...

Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

It is easy to say they should have more equipment. It is less easy to be
in the position of having to justify expenditure on something that may
only be used once a decade. Even if they did have the equipment it might
not make any difference. Gatwick was advised to close by the Police
today because they were closing most of the roads around it while
yesterday the railway station was closed by a train that broke down on
an important set of points.

Colin Bignell

The RAF in North Yorkshire put urea on the runways to clear ice.
Doesn't have the corrosive effect on aircraft skins as salt but the
run-off water ends up in the Ouse from where it is taken by the York
water company for treatment and use in the town water supply. The urea
content then softens the scale/patina on the inside of the old water
mains and leads to an increase in the dissolved lead content of the
water.
Gets a few people hot under the collar!

On 01/12/2010 22:11, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-01, wrote:
I watched the BBC news tonight and 2 things struck me.

I used to work at BAe Systems at Warton Lancashire from 1978 to 1999 and
never once was the runway snowed/iced up to close it. Once ploughed, it
was treated with something called 'prills'. It was made from cattle pee
and the smell was awful.

Prilling is a packaging method, rather than a substance, per se. You can
get all kinds of things prilled;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prill

After doing a quick google, I can see what you mean. The lads that kept
the runway clear were only bowser drivers and I can see how they mixed
up the packaging method and called the product spread on the runway as
prills.

Thanks for that

Dave

On 02/12/2010 11:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I remember Johannesburg airport being closed for snow.

No snow plough for 3000 miles..

Pfft, it's an airport. Just fly one in.

Oh wait...

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
On 02/12/2010 11:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I remember Johannesburg airport being closed for snow.

No snow plough for 3000 miles..

Pfft, it's an airport. Just fly one in.

Oh wait...


it was only for a single day.
Once a century occurrence.

Few people outside Lesotho have ever seen snow in S Africa.


Andy

On 02/12/2010 13:16, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 01/12/2010 23:59, Vernon wrote:
....
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

It is easy to say they should have more equipment. It is less easy to be
in the position of having to justify expenditure on something that may
only be used once a decade. Even if they did have the equipment it might
not make any difference. Gatwick was advised to close by the Police
today because they were closing most of the roads around it while
yesterday the railway station was closed by a train that broke down on
an important set of points.

Colin Bignell


It is easy to say they should have more equipment, yes, but they should.
There must be dozens of vehicles that could be fitted with snow ploughs,
even something as small as a landrover. The specialist ice shifting
machinery would be freed up to do its job properly and the airport would
be open. Whilst I appreciate it may close due to an unusually large
volume of snow, it should be possible to clear in a couple of hours.
None of this closed for days nonsense.

Same goes for public roads, the councils have dozens of vehicles, why
are more of them not adapted for plowing. Snow ploughs are not
expensive. If Tesco can afford to buy quad bikes with ploughs and a
small grit trailer then I don't see why councils cannot do the same.

If it is a "freak" "one off" "never happen again" event fair enough, but
this is not the case. Perhaps the private sector would like to invest?
For example the HGV operators might like to buy ploughs for their
tractor units, then in bad weather they can assist in keeping roads
open, this benefits the HGV operators as they can resume normal
operations quicker, and councils would not need as much specialist
equipment. The "one off" charges for the assistance would be minimal
compared to the billions the experts reckon UK plc loses due to traffic
chaos.

Vernon :
Perhaps the private sector would like to invest? For example the HGV
operators might like to buy ploughs for their tractor units, then in
bad weather they can assist in keeping roads open, this benefits the
HGV operators as they can resume normal operations quicker, and
councils would not need as much specialist equipment.

I half-heard an article on the radio about this, with regard to farmers
and their tractors. This apparently simple arrangement is a nightmare
when the bureaucrats get involved. You can imagine, I'm sure.

However I agree with your earlier point about equipping vehicles that
the council already has for snow clearing. Waste collection vehicles
would be ideal in my non-expert opinion, with winter tyres and a
ploughing attachment at the front. (As it happens our waste collections
have taken place as usual this week, but we've only got about six inches
here in Cheshire.)

--
Mike Barnes

Mike Barnes wrote:
Vernon :
Perhaps the private sector would like to invest? For example the HGV
operators might like to buy ploughs for their tractor units, then in
bad weather they can assist in keeping roads open, this benefits the
HGV operators as they can resume normal operations quicker, and
councils would not need as much specialist equipment.

I half-heard an article on the radio about this, with regard to
farmers and their tractors. This apparently simple arrangement is a
nightmare when the bureaucrats get involved. You can imagine, I'm
sure.

However I agree with your earlier point about equipping vehicles that
the council already has for snow clearing. Waste collection vehicles
would be ideal in my non-expert opinion, with winter tyres and a
ploughing attachment at the front. (As it happens our waste
collections have taken place as usual this week, but we've only got
about six inches here in Cheshire.)

Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week & it snowed heavily. Apart
from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup truck seemed to
have a snowplough attachment. All the shop & restaurant parking lots were
cleared in hours, local backroads were cleared by residents using pickup
trucks & ploughs.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 03/12/2010 10:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, The Medway wrote:

Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& it snowed heavily. Apart
from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup truck seemed to
have a snowplough attachment. All the shop& restaurant parking lots were
cleared in hours, local backroads were cleared by residents using pickup
trucks& ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth spending
several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's attachment point for
your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have problems; last
year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they started to run out of
places to put the ploughed snow. And it's completely normal to come out of
your house and find the snow-blowers have buried your car completely.

OK, we've had snow for the last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at all
here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.

Yes but is it a waste of money? As I said earlier if all council
vehicles were capable of taking a plough, it would add a little to the
vehicle cost(how much is a bin lorry?). If each year the council bought
several ploughs, it would add little to the annual budget.

BUT the benefit to the country if everything gets moving again quicker
is huge, experts reckon these events cost millions in lost income, money
that we really could do with. So I fail to see how it is a waste of
money. Even if this sort of weather only happens once every ten years I
am sure the capital expended would be far less than revenues lost.

People harp on about how important education is, well how much damage
has been done by all these closed schools? We live in the 21st century
we should not be struggling with snow. Trains should not be getting
stuck, we know what the problems are, is it so difficult to remedy them?

Vernon wrote:
On 03/12/2010 10:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, The Medway
wrote:
Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& it snowed heavily.
Apart from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup
truck seemed to have a snowplough attachment. All the shop& restaurant
parking lots were cleared in hours, local backroads were
cleared by residents using pickup trucks& ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth
spending several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's
attachment point for your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep
a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have
problems; last year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they
started to run out of places to put the ploughed snow. And it's
completely normal to come out of your house and find the
snow-blowers have buried your car completely. OK, we've had snow for the
last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at
all here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.

Yes but is it a waste of money? As I said earlier if all council
vehicles were capable of taking a plough, it would add a little to the
vehicle cost(how much is a bin lorry?). If each year the council
bought several ploughs, it would add little to the annual budget.

BUT the benefit to the country if everything gets moving again quicker
is huge, experts reckon these events cost millions in lost income,

Its cost me £600+ not being able to get out & about - and being self
employed I've really tried to.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 03/12/10 10:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, The Medway wrote:

Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& it snowed heavily. Apart
from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup truck seemed to
have a snowplough attachment. All the shop& restaurant parking lots were
cleared in hours, local backroads were cleared by residents using pickup
trucks& ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth spending
several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's attachment point for
your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have problems; last
year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they started to run out of
places to put the ploughed snow. And it's completely normal to come out of
your house and find the snow-blowers have buried your car completely.

OK, we've had snow for the last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at all
here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.


Whereas snow chains would be a cheap investment. I was thinking last
year I ought to get some. Now I definately will, in time for the next
snow in Jan/Feb. I'm pleased to see some random bus company on the news
last night bought a load of sets after last year and it saved their
arses this year.

I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels would
be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

--
Tim Watts

On 03/12/2010 08:25, Vernon wrote:
On 02/12/2010 13:16, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 01/12/2010 23:59, Vernon wrote:
....
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads & railways.

It is easy to say they should have more equipment. It is less easy to be
in the position of having to justify expenditure on something that may
only be used once a decade. Even if they did have the equipment it might
not make any difference. Gatwick was advised to close by the Police
today because they were closing most of the roads around it while
yesterday the railway station was closed by a train that broke down on
an important set of points.

Colin Bignell


It is easy to say they should have more equipment, yes, but they should.
There must be dozens of vehicles that could be fitted with snow ploughs,
even something as small as a landrover.

That still involves expenditure, both to buy the snow ploughs and to
adapt the vehicles to carry them. In any case, simply moving snow about
is not necessarily what is needed - see my comments on the roads below.

The specialist ice shifting
machinery would be freed up to do its job properly and the airport would
be open.

Not if essential staff cannot get in because the roads around the
airport have been closed.

Whilst I appreciate it may close due to an unusually large
volume of snow, it should be possible to clear in a couple of hours.

Gatwick has just reopened after removing 150,000 tons of snow. That is
more than a couple of hours' work.

Watching Saltzburg airport runway being cleared by a staggered convoy of
snow ploughs between each flight a few years ago was quite impressive.
However, that is a fairly lightly used airport that expects significant
snow falls every year. During the day Gatwick averages one aircraft
movement every minute and a quarter. The runway is two kilometres - 1.25
miles - long, so, to clear the runway between flights and get back to
the start before the next one, around trip of 2.5 miles the ploughs
would need to be doing 2 miles a minute - 120 mph. Heathrow has a plane
a minute and two 3km runways.

Deicing the aircraft at Saltzburg also involved three de-icing trucks to
each aircraft, to get enough on in a short enough time to avoid it
freezing before getting airbourne. That, again, would require a fleet of
specialised vehicles that do nothing most years.

None of this closed for days nonsense.

Same goes for public roads, the councils have dozens of vehicles, why
are more of them not adapted for plowing.

Because simply moving the snow out of the way is not enough. It is also
necessary to stop more snow settling and to prevent ice forming and that
requires gritting to be carried out at the same time. That is, in
itself, an art. Salt has to be laid at the right time, in the right
amounts and in the right conditions to be effective. Salt becomes less
effective as the temperature falls and ceases to work at all at around
-9C, which applied to a lot of Britain last night. It also needs to be
mixed with the ice by passing traffic, so gritting lightly used routes
has little or no value. Even the grit size is important. 10mm grit is
more effective, but 6mm grit is less likely to lead to broken
windscreens. Clearing roads and keeping them clear is not as simple as
it might appear.

Snow ploughs are not
expensive. If Tesco can afford to buy quad bikes with ploughs and a
small grit trailer then I don't see why councils cannot do the same.

Tesco takes one pound in every eight (or is it seven by now?) spent on
the High Street. They need to protect that income and a few thousand
pounds a store is a good investment for them. Local Authorities have to
justify expenditure to the rate / council tax payers and can't just buy
stuff on spec. Even when they do invest in new equipment, it is not
always simple. Brighton and Hove found out last year that the hills
defeated their conventional gritting lorries, so they ordered a new
fleet that are adapted to grit their own path. The first of the fleet,
ordered early this year, is due for delivery some time in 2011. However,
I have seen council lorries out, with workmen spreading rock salt by
hand. That is very unscientific and may even be ineffective, but it does
make people think they are doing what they can.

If it is a "freak" "one off" "never happen again" event fair enough, but
this is not the case.

It is rare enough for it to be debatable whether the expenditure is
justified.

Perhaps the private sector would like to invest?
For example the HGV operators might like to buy ploughs for their
tractor units, then in bad weather they can assist in keeping roads
open,

.... as far as the first hill with a bit of ice under the snow. In the
case of the carrier I use, that is the road leading away from their depot.

Colin Bignell

On Dec 2, 1:03*pm, S Viemeister wrote:
On 12/2/2010 7:10 AM, Adam Aglionby wrote: On Dec 2, 9:39 am, *wrote:
Also I have to agree about these commercial airports not really playing
the game, they obviously do not have enough equipment to move the snow,
they should be clearing the whole runway width in one pass. Cost savings
again. Ditto the roads& *railways.

I thought the runways were under-heated ?

The Mound, its a downhill section of road, in Edinburgh had, 1960`s
electric heating cable, experimental under road heating , given up on
becuase it created clouds of steam.

I lived a very short distance from the Mound in the late 60s - I don't
remember the steam, but I also don't remember the Mound icing-up.
I'm pretty sure the roadway was still cobblestones then - did they lift
sections of cobbles to lay the cables?

I have to agree - I suspect the steam story is just that - urban
myth. As far as I know the cable stopped working.

On Dec 3, 8:25*am, Vernon wrote:

It is easy to say they should have more equipment, yes, but they should.
There must be dozens of vehicles that could be fitted with snow ploughs,
even something as small as a landrover.

No win-no fee personal injury lawyers in chaingangs with shovels.

On Dec 3, 8:55*am, Mike Barnes wrote:
Vernon :

Perhaps the private sector would like to invest? For example the HGV
operators might like to buy ploughs for their tractor units, then in
bad weather they can assist in keeping roads open, this benefits the
HGV operators as they can resume normal operations quicker, and
councils would not need as much specialist equipment.

I half-heard an article on the radio about this, with regard to farmers
and their tractors. This apparently simple arrangement is a nightmare
when the bureaucrats get involved. You can imagine, I'm sure.

However I agree with your earlier point about equipping vehicles that
the council already has for snow clearing. Waste collection vehicles
would be ideal in my non-expert opinion, with winter tyres and a
ploughing attachment at the front. (As it happens our waste collections
have taken place as usual this week, but we've only got about six inches
here in Cheshire.)

--
Mike Barnes

Umm er - have you thought who drives the council salters and snow
ploughs - it's the guys who drive the waste collection vehicles !!
They don't have snow plough drivers sitting around all year just
waiting for the snow to come.

On Dec 3, 10:15*am, Vernon wrote:
On 03/12/2010 10:04, Huge wrote:







On 2010-12-03, The Medway *wrote:

Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& *it snowed heavily. *Apart
from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup truck seemed to
have a snowplough attachment. *All the shop& *restaurant parking lots were
cleared in hours, local backroads were cleared by residents using pickup
trucks& *ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth spending
several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's attachment point for
your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have problems; last
year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they started to run out of
places to put the ploughed snow. And it's completely normal to come out of
your house and find the snow-blowers have buried your car completely.

OK, we've had snow for the last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at all
here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.

Yes but is it a waste of money? As I said earlier if all council
vehicles were capable of taking a plough, it would add a little to the
vehicle cost(how much is a bin lorry?). If each year the council bought
several ploughs, it would add little to the annual budget.

BUT the benefit to the country if everything gets moving again quicker
is huge, experts reckon these events cost millions in lost income, money
that we really could do with. So I fail to see how it is a waste of
money. Even if this sort of weather only happens once every ten years I
am sure the capital expended would be far less than revenues lost.

People harp on about how important education is, well how much damage
has been done by all these closed schools? We live in the 21st century
we should not be struggling with snow. Trains should not be getting
stuck, we know what the problems are, is it so difficult to remedy them?

See my comment above on Mike Barnes' similar post - the councils will
not have drivers for all the lorries you are going to convert ! Try
some joined up thinking.

On Dec 3, 10:39*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/12/10 10:04, Huge wrote:









On 2010-12-03, The Medway *wrote:

Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& *it snowed heavily. *Apart
from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup truck seemed to
have a snowplough attachment. *All the shop& *restaurant parking lots were
cleared in hours, local backroads were cleared by residents using pickup
trucks& *ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth spending
several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's attachment point for
your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have problems; last
year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they started to run out of
places to put the ploughed snow. And it's completely normal to come out of
your house and find the snow-blowers have buried your car completely.

OK, we've had snow for the last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at all
here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.

Whereas snow chains would be a cheap investment. I was thinking last
year I ought to *get some. Now I definately will, in time for the next
snow in Jan/Feb. I'm pleased to see some random bus company on the news
last night bought a load of sets after last year and it saved their
arses this year.

I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels would
be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

--
Tim Watts

Yes Tim - but have you thought that through too. Where chains are
used extensively and wehn they were used extensively in the UK, the
main roads are left snowy so the chains can dig in. I some how doubt
it would be wise to use chains on a salted clean road and I'm not too
sure if it's approved of too.

Reference an early post on snow on car roofs - the police can stop
you and issue a £60 fine and 3 points if you don't clear it off, for
the very reasons stated earlier.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/12/10 10:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, The Medway
wrote:
Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& it snowed heavily.
Apart from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup
truck seemed to have a snowplough attachment. All the shop& restaurant
parking lots were cleared in hours, local backroads were
cleared by residents using pickup trucks& ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth
spending several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's
attachment point for your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep
a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have
problems; last year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they
started to run out of places to put the ploughed snow. And it's
completely normal to come out of your house and find the
snow-blowers have buried your car completely. OK, we've had snow for the
last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at
all here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.


Whereas snow chains would be a cheap investment. I was thinking last
year I ought to get some. Now I definately will, in time for the next
snow in Jan/Feb. I'm pleased to see some random bus company on the
news last night bought a load of sets after last year and it saved
their arses this year.

I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels
would be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

But you are supposed to run winter tyres all the winter months not just when
it snows.
--
Adam

Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, Nightjar "cpb"@ "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

Local Authorities have to
justify expenditure to the rate / council tax payers and can't just
buy stuff on spec.

I used to live in Bristol. There was a huge hoo-ha there because the
council spent £10M on snow clearing equipment which had sat in a
depot for 8
years. (This was some years ago - sadly, I can't find any details
because the google searches are swamped by the curreent snow ...) I
imagine much
of it was inoperable by the time it came to be used.

KCC have invested in grit lorries where the gritting bit can be removed so
the lorry can be used as a normal flatbed during no snow times.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 03/12/10 11:19, robgraham wrote:

Yes Tim - but have you thought that through too. Where chains are
used extensively and wehn they were used extensively in the UK, the
main roads are left snowy so the chains can dig in. I some how doubt
it would be wise to use chains on a salted clean road and I'm not too
sure if it's approved of too.

Yes I have thought it through. The only viable option are easy-fit
types. They cost more, but there are times, like last year, when a
journey *has* to be made and it really wasn't fun. In that case, every
bloody road from here to Maidstone was iced up so they wouldn't have
come off anyway.

--
Tim Watts

On 03/12/10 11:22, ARWadsworth wrote:
Tim wrote:
On 03/12/10 10:04, Huge wrote:
On 2010-12-03, The Medway
wrote:
Many years ago I was in Toledo Ohio for a week& it snowed heavily.
Apart from the local authority snowploughs, every private pickup
truck seemed to have a snowplough attachment. All the shop& restaurant
parking lots were cleared in hours, local backroads were
cleared by residents using pickup trucks& ploughs.

The point being that it snows a lot there every year so it's worth
spending several thousand dollars on a snowplough and it's
attachment point for your 4x4; and many Americans in Northern States keep
a beaten-up 4x4
(usually a pickup) solely for that purpose. And even they have
problems; last year in Pennsylvania (my Mother lives there), they
started to run out of places to put the ploughed snow. And it's
completely normal to come out of your house and find the
snow-blowers have buried your car completely. OK, we've had snow for the
last 2 or 3 years, but it doesn't snow at
all here most winters, so it's simply a waste of money.


Whereas snow chains would be a cheap investment. I was thinking last
year I ought to get some. Now I definately will, in time for the next
snow in Jan/Feb. I'm pleased to see some random bus company on the
news last night bought a load of sets after last year and it saved
their arses this year.

I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels
would be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

But you are supposed to run winter tyres all the winter months not just when
it snows.

What I meant was it was a PITA to have to change and house a spare set
just to cope with a couple of weeks a year

Quick fit chains would probably be less hassle and less cost, even for a
really good (quick fit) set.

--
Tim Watts

In article ,
Mike Barnes wrote:
However I agree with your earlier point about equipping
vehicles that the council already has for snow clearing.
Waste collection vehicles would be ideal in my non-expert
opinion, with winter tyres and a ploughing attachment at
the front. (As it happens our waste collections have
taken place as usual this week, but we've only got about
six inches here in Cheshire.)
In the days of proper dustbins (metal ones without wheels)
and open top dustcarts, the binmen stood in the dustcart
filled wth salt /grit and did the spreading by shovel. The
roadsweepers (men not vehicles) cleared the footpaths.

Householders cleared their frontage often using cinders from
the coal fire as an alternative to grit.

This all helped the proper snow clearing vehicles

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

It's that deja vu feeling all over again

On 03/12/2010 11:36 AM, Tim Watts wrote:
I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels
would be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

"All season" tyres are a compromise in all conditions - poor grip in
summer, poor grip in winter.

But you are supposed to run winter tyres all the winter months not
just when it snows.

What I meant was it was a PITA to have to change and house a spare set
just to cope with a couple of weeks a year

I shoved mine on a couple of weeks ago, and will take 'em off in
February or March.

A set of four wheels/tyres, stacked, take up a fairly small amount of
space in a corner of the garage or shed. 600mm diameter, 800mm high. Put
stuff on top of 'em. Job jobbed.

Quick fit chains would probably be less hassle and less cost, even for a
really good (quick fit) set.

No, they really wouldn't.

If I was using chains or socks rather than winter tyres, I'd have had to
fit and remove them probably half a dozen times on my way to and from
work this morning. For some stretches, I'd have required them on one
front wheel only.

On 03/12/10 11:52, Adrian wrote:
On 03/12/2010 11:36 AM, Tim Watts wrote:
I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found any for my wheel
size that seem to be very convincing - and I agree, winter wheels
would be a PITA for a couple of weeks a year.

"All season" tyres are a compromise in all conditions - poor grip in
summer, poor grip in winter.

But you are supposed to run winter tyres all the winter months not
just when it snows.

What I meant was it was a PITA to have to change and house a spare set
just to cope with a couple of weeks a year

I shoved mine on a couple of weeks ago, and will take 'em off in
February or March.

Can you recommend a brand - and how well did they cope with

a) ICE

b) Snow

c) Slush

Is your car a 2x4? Mine is.

I rarely *need* to use the car these day - I commute by train (or not,
this week) - the reason I was considering chains is that I might make 2
journeys a year in snow that are vital so the fitting hassle isn't much
overall for me.


Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

In article
,
robgraham wrote:
Whereas snow chains would be a cheap investment. I was
thinking last year I ought to get some. Now I
definately will, in time for the next snow in Jan/Feb.
I'm pleased to see some random bus company on the news
last night bought a load of sets after last year and it
saved their arses this year.
I could only get onto an (safely) off our residents car
using my chains. Then down to the main road and take them
off. (total about 200m) When in France I have a 3km drive
to the road so much better 'value', but my Renault is crap
on snow.

I was mooting "All season" tyres, but I've not found
any for my wheel size that seem to be very convincing -
and I agree, winter wheels would be a PITA for a couple
of weeks a year.
Snow socks look good & much cheaper than tyres. Easier to
fit, (not much space under my wheel arches when I'm putting
the chains on) Not sure how durable the snow socks are
though.

-- Tim Watts

Yes Tim - but have you thought that through too. Where
chains are used extensively and wehn they were used
extensively in the UK, the main roads are left snowy so
the chains can dig in. I some how doubt it would be wise
to use chains on a salted clean road and I'm not too sure
if it's approved of too.
Not allowed - causes damage to the surface

I suspect the spray on tyre chain is going to be my next
purchase. http://www.sprayontyrechain.co.uk/ I've seen
bikers using it in spain and it seemed to do the business.

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese

On 03/12/2010 11:58 AM, Tim Watts wrote:
I shoved mine on a couple of weeks ago, and will take 'em off in
February or March.

Can you recommend a brand

I've got Vredestein SnowTracs on. Why those? Price vs brand reputation
vs speed rating vs availability when I got 'em a couple of years ago. I
got 'em from Camskill.co.uk, and had 'em fitted locally - most smaller
tyre places or garages will do it for you for some folding drinking
vouchers. Big tyre chains will charge a chunk more.

and how well did they cope with

a) ICE
b) Snow
c) Slush

A _damn sight_ better than the normal summer tyres - a pair of Mich
Energies and a pair of Conti PremiumContacts this year, previously Mich
Pilot Primacies.

Let's put it this way - my leg still hurts from where I went flying and
****ted it on the underside of the door trying to get back in the car
after waiting for a big 4x4 tractor and trailer to stop sliding sideways
and get a wiggle on at a T-junction on Tuesday. I'd stopped OK, I moved
off OK, and I turned just fine.

Is your car a 2x4? Mine is.

Yep. 1990 Saab 900T16.
4wd is irrelevant in braking or turning, only for getting moving. If
you've got no grip, it'll merely bring you to the location of your
collision sooner and at a higher speed.

I rarely *need* to use the car these day - I commute by train (or not,
this week) - the reason I was considering chains is that I might make 2
journeys a year in snow that are vital so the fitting hassle isn't much
overall for me.

Go back to that list of road conditions, and add...

d) cold wet tarmac
e) cold dry tarmac

to it. The grip relative to summer tyres swaps over at about 5degC.

In article
,
can't remember who wrote:
The Mound, its a downhill section of road, in
Edinburgh had, 1960`s electric heating cable,
experimental under road heating , given up on becuase
it created clouds of steam.
There was a stretch of road in Burnley with a flyover that
was heated, built in the late 60's I think. A long time
later when the surface was getting pretty worn, it needed
more ratepayers money for the repair than the unheated
surfaces!

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

You can't beat a boiled egg

robgraham :
On Dec 3, 8:55*am, Mike Barnes wrote:
However I agree with your earlier point about equipping vehicles that
the council already has for snow clearing. Waste collection vehicles
would be ideal in my non-expert opinion, with winter tyres and a
ploughing attachment at the front. (As it happens our waste collections
have taken place as usual this week, but we've only got about six inches
here in Cheshire.)

Umm er - have you thought who drives the council salters and snow
ploughs - it's the guys who drive the waste collection vehicles !!
They don't have snow plough drivers sitting around all year just
waiting for the snow to come.

To my way of thinking, you take one waste vehicle driver, send him on a
course, and you have a dual purpose driver to go with your dual purpose
vehicle. OK, it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

--
Mike Barnes