I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Jeff Gaines wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

just keep on with the descaler, or possibly brick acid but don't let
that near any chrome.

I have in the past chipped out the chalky stuff. It takes several goes
to clean up a seriously scaled bog.

One reason I fitted a water softener. Limescale, urine and faeces are
not pleasant to remove.

On Oct 22, 9:40*pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT

"Tabby" wrote in message ...
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'd have gone with a soft water area ;-)

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Tabby" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT

Spirits of salt (hydrochloric acid) is cheap and readily available at good
hardware shops. Sulphuric acid is not quite so easy to find. I don't think
the wiki is giving very good advice here because concentrated sulphuric
acid, or even battery strength acid, is as aggressive towards concrete and
more aggressive towards skin than brick acid or spirits of salt. The acid
bath murderer used sulphuric acid, not hydrochloric, to dissolve his victims
(except for their gall-stones).

"newshound" wrote in message
...


"Tabby" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT

Spirits of salt (hydrochloric acid) is cheap and readily available at good
hardware shops. Sulphuric acid is not quite so easy to find. I don't
think the wiki is giving very good advice here because concentrated
sulphuric acid, or even battery strength acid, is as aggressive towards
concrete and more aggressive towards skin than brick acid or spirits of
salt. The acid bath murderer used sulphuric acid, not hydrochloric, to
dissolve his victims (except for their gall-stones).

This might sound silly, but the best thing is full strength coke a cola.
empty all the water out the bottom of wc bowl, fill up the the trap level
with
coke a cola and leave all night.
It's also very good for cleaning car engines of grease etc.
and people drink it

On 22/10/10 21:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

just keep on with the descaler, or possibly brick acid but don't let
that near any chrome.

and never mix with bleach!

(Makes gaseous chlorine in large amounts).

But yes, brick acid aka HCl will work very well - I;ve used it a few
times. You do not need to use it at full strength - 10% will still work
wonders whilst being slightly less unpleasant - in particular 30+% HCl
gives off a noticeable amount of HCl as gas which is not nice in
confined spaces - gets your eyes and throat.

Max conc is 30-odd % (33 IIRC) and "brick acid" version generally comes
in between 20-30% (says on the bottle) so dilute it 1:1 or 1:2 with
water and it tends to be a lot less stinky.

You also see it in proper hardware stores described as Spirits of Salts
in meths-type bottles (yellow liquid - due to not being very pure).

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40*pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

--
Frank Erskine

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:05:23 +0100, "A Plumber"
wrote:


"newshound" wrote in message
...


"Tabby" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT

Spirits of salt (hydrochloric acid) is cheap and readily available at good
hardware shops. Sulphuric acid is not quite so easy to find. I don't
think the wiki is giving very good advice here because concentrated
sulphuric acid, or even battery strength acid, is as aggressive towards
concrete and more aggressive towards skin than brick acid or spirits of
salt. The acid bath murderer used sulphuric acid, not hydrochloric, to
dissolve his victims (except for their gall-stones).

This might sound silly, but the best thing is full strength coke a cola.

That's the best thing you can do with Coca Cola.

--
Frank Erskine

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

--
Frank Erskine


In turkey they sell hydrochloric acid in most shops for cleaning floor tiles
and de scaling.
I used it for the first time a few weeks back and it works a treat.
Use rubber gloves and dont breath the fumes.

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

yeah, chlorides more soluble than sulphates.

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:05:23 +0100, "A Plumber"
wrote:

"newshound" wrote in message
...

"Tabby" wrote in message
...
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT
Spirits of salt (hydrochloric acid) is cheap and readily available at good
hardware shops. Sulphuric acid is not quite so easy to find. I don't
think the wiki is giving very good advice here because concentrated
sulphuric acid, or even battery strength acid, is as aggressive towards
concrete and more aggressive towards skin than brick acid or spirits of
salt. The acid bath murderer used sulphuric acid, not hydrochloric, to
dissolve his victims (except for their gall-stones).
This might sound silly, but the best thing is full strength coke a cola.

That's the best thing you can do with Coca Cola.

Its very mild phosphoric and citric acid IIRC.

I think phosphoric is available at better strength as a de rusting agent..

and citric is in any acid fruit..

almost any acid will work, but the key is the product solubility and the
surfactants and gels added to descalers.

The key is to find something that attacks the scale, bit not metal
plumbing bits. Then add surfactant and a thickener, a bit of color and a
nice pong: hey presto,. Commercial de-scalers.

I've seen propionic(?) acid, formic acid, and several others (oxalic) in
various descalers.

But for cheap and fast, Hcl takes a lot of beating. Abrasive sponge,
rubber gloves, safety specs and ventilation . wash any splashes off
fairly quickly, and wear the oldest clothes you can find. wash
everything by itself after use.

just keep washing off the fizz with fresh sponged acid. Flush evbery few
minutes, and expect it to take a couple of hpurs, and be happy when its
40 minutes..

On 23/10/2010 9:40 a.m., Jeff Gaines wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the rim. I've
given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it needs something
stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing up the
drains?


A new house with lime-scale in the toilet bowl? What have I missed?

"Gib Bogle" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2010 9:40 a.m., Jeff Gaines wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've
given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it needs
something
stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the
drains?


A new house with lime-scale in the toilet bowl? What have I missed?

"Completed" = "completion of sale"

It could be Elizabethan.

On Oct 23, 9:40 am, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:
I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

For severe cases I have successfully used a large chisel from my
woodworking lathe, hitting it with a hammer.

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

--
Frank Erskine

Good point, calcium sulphate = gypsum = plaster

But it will still convert "scale" into fine particles which can be washed
away.

Harpic limescale remover contains 15 - 20% hydrochloric acid according to
the MSDS. That probably means this percentage of the strong aqueous solution
so I think "brick acid" or "spirits of salt" is a few times stronger. The
problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent to make it
thicker, but with either product you need to use the abrasive sponge and
gloves technique described in another posting. Unless you plug the outlet
and fill it up to the brim to soak, which is another option (it might take
days unless you put in a lot of acid).

In message , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,

Wall paper paste as a thickener?

--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 23/10/2010 in message
Matty F
wrote:

For severe cases I have successfully used a large chisel from my
woodworking lathe, hitting it with a hammer.

Many thanks for all the input :-)

I'm back over there today and I'll keep at it with the Harpic between
decorating. It was a single female owner previously, perhaps she never
lifted the seat?

If the chisel doesn't work I do have a small angle grinder....

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to get along without it.

"newshound" wrote in message
...


"Gib Bogle" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2010 9:40 a.m., Jeff Gaines wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've
given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it needs
something
stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the
drains?


A new house with lime-scale in the toilet bowl? What have I missed?

"Completed" = "completion of sale"

It could be Elizabethan.

It wouldn't have a toilet bowl then, would it

tim

On 22/10/2010 23:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

Indeed. I have a Winchester jar of 23% HCl left over from one of my
businesses and it works wonders on lime scale. Nasty stuff to handle though.

Colin Bignell

On Oct 22, 11:20*pm, Frank Erskine
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Tabby
wrote:

On Oct 22, 9:40*pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid

I'm no chemistry expert myself, but I'm reliably informed that
hydrochloric acid is better. Something, ISTR about solubility of the
products.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Acid
explains why its not


NT

On 23/10/2010 09:11, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 23/10/2010 in message
Matty
F wrote:

For severe cases I have successfully used a large chisel from my
woodworking lathe, hitting it with a hammer.

Many thanks for all the input :-)

I'm back over there today and I'll keep at it with the Harpic between
decorating. It was a single female owner previously, perhaps she never
lifted the seat?

If the chisel doesn't work I do have a small angle grinder....


IME the easiest way to do the rim is block the thing up with plastic
bags or whatever and leave overnight. Any acid will do. About 200 gms of
citric (£1.50 in the chemist) did it for me last time and no worries
about it spilling on the floor, which it is bound to do if you fill
right to the top.

It could be Elizabethan.

It wouldn't have a toilet bowl then, would it

tim

I think most elizabethan houses have one now :-)

Tabby wrote:
On Oct 22, 9:40 pm, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:

I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Limescale
I'd go with sulphuric acid


NT
Not a good idea - It will convert the top layer of the scale into
Calcium Sulphate which does not dissolve in water. The acid will not
then do anthing to the rest of the scale. Stick with brick acid
(hydrochloric acid) as calcium Chloride does dissolve in water. Take
the advice from another post - do not add bleach until you have
thoroughly flushed the system. Bleach and any acid (including Harpi)
generate chlorine gas which is very unpleasant and was used as a poison
gas in WW1

Malcolm

Alan wrote:
In message , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,

Wall paper paste as a thickener?

Or leave it to the qualified & experienced chemists who make things like
Harpic.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 23/10/2010 16:10, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Alan wrote:
In , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,

Wall paper paste as a thickener?

Or leave it to the qualified& experienced chemists who make things like
Harpic.



AFAIK wallpaper paste falls apart in an acid environment

On 22 Oct, 21:40, "Jeff Gaines" wrote:
I completed on a new house today.
One of the toilet bowls has a very heavy layer of lime-scale round the
rim. I've given it a squirt of Harpic lime-scale remover but I think it
needs something stronger.
Any suggestions as to what might remove it without killing me or blowing
up the drains?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

If it's as bad as that, you'll probably find the 100mm trap is bunged
up with scale as well. I took my WC out and was able to prise a huge
chunk out with a hefty screwdriver and a hammer. CSA was a bout half
what it was meant to be.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Alan wrote:
In message , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,
Wall paper paste as a thickener?

Or leave it to the qualified & experienced chemists who make things like
Harpic.


s/chemists/over paid marketing executives

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Alan wrote:
In message , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,
Wall paper paste as a thickener?

Or leave it to the qualified & experienced chemists who make things like
Harpic.


s/chemists/over paid marketing executives

Formulated limescale remover does seem to be the most unnecessary product.
Personally, I just buy a bottle of "value" vinegar for 20p, it's good enough
for most purposes though probably isn't strong enough for the OP's problem

tim

On 24/10/2010 09:19, tim.... wrote:
"The Natural wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Alan wrote:
In , newshound
wrote

The problem with the rim is gravity; harpic contains a gelling agent
to make it thicker,
Wall paper paste as a thickener?

Or leave it to the qualified& experienced chemists who make things like
Harpic.


s/chemists/over paid marketing executives

Formulated limescale remover does seem to be the most unnecessary product.
Personally, I just buy a bottle of "value" vinegar for 20p, it's good enough
for most purposes though probably isn't strong enough for the OP's problem

tim


Absolutely. IME scale is soluble in any acid, but people leave it to
build up for months and then want to remove it in five minutes.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/10 21:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

just keep on with the descaler, or possibly brick acid but don't let
that near any chrome.

and never mix with bleach!

(Makes gaseous chlorine in large amounts).

But yes, brick acid aka HCl will work very well - I;ve used it a few
times. You do not need to use it at full strength - 10% will still work
wonders whilst being slightly less unpleasant - in particular 30+% HCl
gives off a noticeable amount of HCl as gas which is not nice in confined
spaces - gets your eyes and throat.

Max conc is 30-odd % (33 IIRC) and "brick acid" version generally comes in
between 20-30% (says on the bottle) so dilute it 1:1 or 1:2 with water and
it tends to be a lot less stinky.

You also see it in proper hardware stores described as Spirits of Salts in
meths-type bottles (yellow liquid - due to not being very pure).

Robert Dyas sell it for about £3 for 500ml. It works very well.