My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

About two years ago when my parents decorated their lounge I took the
opportunity to lay a few extra CT100 cables from behind their TV to their
loft for future expansion.

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the ladders
to the eye bolt.

So here is the snag.

The CT100 is coiled up just at the other side of the wall to sat dish. The
engineer cannot drill a hole through the wall where needed as he cannot
drill from outside in and he cannot go into a boarded out loft to drill
outwards (not that my Dad would ever let them drill outwards)

The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders BEFORE they
were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly had a fit even
though the base of the ladders were tight up against a garden wall and could
not slip backwards). With the extension lead tied around his waist to take
it's weight my Dad drilled a hole before nipping into the loft and poking
the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

--
Adam

On 20/09/10 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

About two years ago when my parents decorated their lounge I took the
opportunity to lay a few extra CT100 cables from behind their TV to their
loft for future expansion.

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the ladders
to the eye bolt.

So here is the snag.

The CT100 is coiled up just at the other side of the wall to sat dish. The
engineer cannot drill a hole through the wall where needed as he cannot
drill from outside in and he cannot go into a boarded out loft to drill
outwards (not that my Dad would ever let them drill outwards)

The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders BEFORE they
were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly had a fit even
though the base of the ladders were tight up against a garden wall and could
not slip backwards). With the extension lead tied around his waist to take
it's weight my Dad drilled a hole before nipping into the loft and poking
the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


Because they're gay?

In message , ARWadsworth
writes

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

Because the world as we know it has gone to hell in a handcart.

There was an article in the Telegraph, a day or two ago, saying that
Dave plans to rein in all this OTT H and S malarky. We'll see.
--
Graeme

ARWadsworth wrote:
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

About two years ago when my parents decorated their lounge I took the
opportunity to lay a few extra CT100 cables from behind their TV to
their loft for future expansion.

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft
with lots of lights.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders to the eye bolt.

So here is the snag.

The CT100 is coiled up just at the other side of the wall to sat
dish. The engineer cannot drill a hole through the wall where needed
as he cannot drill from outside in and he cannot go into a boarded
out loft to drill outwards (not that my Dad would ever let them drill
outwards)
The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders
BEFORE they were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly
had a fit even though the base of the ladders were tight up against a
garden wall and could not slip backwards). With the extension lead
tied around his waist to take it's weight my Dad drilled a hole
before nipping into the loft and poking the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

Sky upgraded us to HD at the beginning of the year - and the installer did
drill the wall (after formally asking my permission), tie the ladders to the
wall and even used a safety harness clipped to the top of the ladder so he
'couldn't' fall off if the ladder moved while he was fitting the new dish
(and he even wore his blue hard-hat) - and this was just over 7ft off the
floor!

I was in bloody stitches and took the mick out of thim something awful - but
he took in good part, and even threw in a second remote control free when I
asked.

Health and Safety gone a little crazy, but I suppose in this litigious age,
these companies must protect their over-inflated bottoms. All great fun.
ROTFL

Cash

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.



Insurance is one key thing ...

If they slip off ladder - big claim
If they slip off joist and put foot through ceiling - big claim

Easier to say no.

Just look at building trade, as student I worked weekends & holidays on site
.... 1cwt (50Kg if you are a child of the Nintendo) bags of cement were
humped about all over the place.
You can't buy one anymore .... only 25Kg ... as 15Kg is considered safe
limit for manual handling.

Last year I had new outbuilding, wanted roof tiled to match house .... 3
different roofers stated they wanted all round scaffolding to do the job
..... finally small builder with a horde of Polish workers came along and did
job of trestles & ladders.

Almost all time spent on the roof walking over OSB or battens ...
scaffolding would be of no help, other than when fitting first couple of
rows of tiles.

"Graeme" wrote in message
...
In message , ARWadsworth
writes

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

Because the world as we know it has gone to hell in a handcart.

There was an article in the Telegraph, a day or two ago, saying that Dave
plans to rein in all this OTT H and S malarky. We'll see.

How's he going to do that then?
The reason they have the restrictions is the insurance companies want too
much to allow the engineers to do what they want.
Its nothing to do with H&S.
--
Graeme

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:01:02 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

Not many visiting engineers are allowed to go into lofts. Fairly sure
BT ones aren't. It's far to easy to put a foot through a ceiling and
follow it with your whole body. Especially now that they insist on
300mm of insulation so you can't see where the 100mm high ceiling
joists are. Boarded out, is a bit daft if it's been done properly not
just a a few packs of loft boards jammed together and loose laid over
the (thick) insulation.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders to the eye bolt.

er, how do they install the eye bolt without going up the ladder? If
it's "safe" to go up the ladder and drill for the eye bolt why isn't
it safe to go up to drill and mount the dish?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:31:52 +0100, Cash wrote:

Sky upgraded us to HD at the beginning of the year - and the installer
did drill the wall (after formally asking my permission), tie the
ladders to the wall and even used a safety harness clipped to the top of
the ladder so he 'couldn't' fall off if the ladder moved while he was
fitting the new dish (and he even wore his blue hard-hat) -

Not overly convinced that being attached to the top of the ladder is
particulary safe. It strikes me that the "safety officer" hasn't
heard of suspension trauma. You don't have long dangling in a harness
before you are in serious medical trouble. I guess the "safety
officer" is assuming that the engineer is still concious and will be
able to scramble back onto the ladder, bad assumption. A worse
assumption is that the householder will be able to assist or be
summoned to call for help fast enough.

and this was just over 7ft off the floor!

Far enough to break things if you fall and possibly kill if certain
bits of you bounce of objects on the way down.

Health and Safety gone a little crazy, but I suppose in this litigious
age, these companies must protect their over-inflated bottoms.

Maybe it also reflects the quality of the people they employ for this
work, the pressure they are under (must do 6 installs/day or
whatever) combined with lack of proper training, (which includes a
week being supervised by someone with real experience), in doing the
actual work.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:01:02 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

Not many visiting engineers are allowed to go into lofts. Fairly sure
BT ones aren't.

They were about 10 years ago, had my ISDN line installed upstairs, with
entry through eaves and drop down into room on far side of house.

My loft had only a few loose boards and one dingy light at the time.

There is a fold-flat scissor-tower - or rather a few of them.
One goes to 2m working height, the other 3.2m working height and there
is another that goes to 3.6m working height. They are £1000, £2400 &
£3500 or something like that. Sweet nothing against Sky's profits. I
suspect they will fit into a suitable "big van" without difficulty,
require minimal ground access & integral outriggers.

Could be a loony "no-win-no-fee" crowd stuffed Sky on a job or the
loony "H&S" crowd did it for them at a cheaper bid!


It has got to the point where the "generic tradesman" need telling how
to do the job, if not having the occupier do the job for them.

Got my mother's gas meter moved outside today, for free.
All the grid stuff done fine, tiny 20mm supply pipe. All the post-
meter work was... gas-tight but freakin-hilarious.

Piping oversized, piping forcibly bent around obstacles making the box
cover difficult to fit & distorting piping, piping not vertical or
horizonal as all miss-cut lengths, one talon clip not locking due to
distorted pipework, unprotected copper but "gas" labelled peeling off,
literally buckets of flux left on pipework, solder like ye olde
candles on horizontal never mind vertical, gas sleeve through wall too
tight around pipe to permit internal seal, gas sleeve too short to
reach through wall, hole around gas sleeve unfilled and open enough
for a mouse (mice skeletons in garage), scaffolding style pipework
inside away from wall rather than flush. Screws zinc plated but will
not last by a grid, hose tap water spray inches away, solid wall, wet
verge 4ft above, solid double brick with banked ground, black ash dyed
mortar creating acidic environment - and once those screws rust they
will split a line of mortar it is so weak, if they do not neck-rust &
snap (cement bonds to ash before sand IIRC).

I thought they used Tracpipe for this sort of stuff, which would be a
tracpipe-to-BSP fitting to the meter and a tracpipe-to-BSP fitting to
the internal pipework. No "we can not use compression fittings". I
will change the screws to stainless one-by-one when time.

Interestingly the design of the box means the gas ECV is hard to turn
- the ball valve handle is too-close to the side-wall if you have
anything but very slim fingers to snag it.

All the H&S nonsense and the workmanship has no hope of getting close.
I wonder if that is as much why Sky do what they do - assume lowest
common denominator of skills, but some installers can do a proper job.
If they drill from the inside, and the mortar is black ash dyed there
is no chance of getting it out of carpets be they cream, beige or
polka dot?

Think uk.d-i-y need to start their own training programme :-)

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:01:02 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft
with lots of lights.

Not many visiting engineers are allowed to go into lofts. Fairly sure
BT ones aren't. It's far to easy to put a foot through a ceiling and
follow it with your whole body. Especially now that they insist on
300mm of insulation so you can't see where the 100mm high ceiling
joists are. Boarded out, is a bit daft if it's been done properly not
just a a few packs of loft boards jammed together and loose laid over
the (thick) insulation.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders to the eye bolt.

er, how do they install the eye bolt without going up the ladder? If
it's "safe" to go up the ladder and drill for the eye bolt why isn't
it safe to go up to drill and mount the dish?

The eyebolt is installed at head height and is installed before you go up
the ladders. A strap is then used between the eyebolt and the ladders at
somewhere around 1/3rd of the height of the ladders.

--
Adam

In article , ARWadsworth adamwadsw
scribeth thus
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

About two years ago when my parents decorated their lounge I took the
opportunity to lay a few extra CT100 cables from behind their TV to their
loft for future expansion.

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the ladders
to the eye bolt.

So here is the snag.

The CT100 is coiled up just at the other side of the wall to sat dish. The
engineer cannot drill a hole through the wall where needed as he cannot
drill from outside in and he cannot go into a boarded out loft to drill
outwards (not that my Dad would ever let them drill outwards)

The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders BEFORE they
were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly had a fit even
though the base of the ladders were tight up against a garden wall and could
not slip backwards). With the extension lead tied around his waist to take
it's weight my Dad drilled a hole before nipping into the loft and poking
the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


You don't have to have Sky install a Sky system .. many independent
installers have been doing these for a long time and also do aerial
rigging in general, and are very used to ladders and lofts without any
of that ball cocks
--
Tony Sayer

On Sep 20, 7:46*pm, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:
Almost all time spent on the roof walking over OSB or battens ...
scaffolding would be of no help, other than when fitting first couple of
rows of tiles.

Dutch method of roofing:
Construct on ground with a hinge at the top.
Lift on crane into place and open up like /\ and fix in place.

I should also add, longer overhanging eaves (altho not quite like the
SS housing).

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:41:05 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:01:02 +0100, ARWadsworth wrote:

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft
with lots of lights.

Not many visiting engineers are allowed to go into lofts. Fairly sure
BT ones aren't.

They were about 10 years ago, had my ISDN line installed upstairs, with
entry through eaves and drop down into room on far side of house.

My loft had only a few loose boards and one dingy light at the time.

Very similar for me. We had ISDN and I wanted a new POTS line for ADSL
(in 2002). Loft with a few loose boards and one dingy light (OK, it had a
ladder...). BT guy did it no problem. (I won't call him an engineer)



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sep 20, 8:52*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
The eyebolt is installed at head height and is installed before you go up
the ladders. A strap is then used between the eyebolt and the ladders at
somewhere around 1/3rd of the height of the ladders.

Do they remove the eyebolt & make good?

The eyebolt would need to be into a brick face, not into mortar for
mechanical strength.
If the eyebolt is left and plain zinc plate, it can corrode enough to
blow a brick (ok takes a fair amount of time, but it will split a
mortar line and can crush a brick as I found this summer and that was
very sheltered albeit 15yrs old).

Could be Sky found they can employ lower skilled (cheaper) people - or
might have had to re demand going by Freeview lately :-)

On 20/09/2010 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


I remember, about 9 years ago now, we got sky installed in the house.
There was me, 5ft 2" female, 2 week old baby in arms, sky engineer, big
burly chap, needed to install telephone extension and said "i'm not
allowed to move that furniture to fix this cable, you'll need to do it,
sorry love".

So I did. Ok, so equality and all that, but for f**k sake, there was me
humphing this furniture out the way, having had a baby 2 weeks
previously (by C section !), and he stood and watched. Don't think I've
ever been so genuinley aghast.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Not many visiting engineers are allowed to go into lofts. Fairly sure
BT ones aren't.

That could be interesting if they ever need access to my master socket -
it's in the loft. It was there when we moved in and doesn't look like it
was moved by the previous owner so I assume that's where BT installed it.
And it wasn't boarded over at the time either, but is now.

--
Mike Clarke

tony sayer wrote:
In article , ARWadsworth
adamwadsw scribeth thus
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

About two years ago when my parents decorated their lounge I took the
opportunity to lay a few extra CT100 cables from behind their TV to
their loft for future expansion.

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft
with lots of lights.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders to the eye bolt.

So here is the snag.

The CT100 is coiled up just at the other side of the wall to sat
dish. The engineer cannot drill a hole through the wall where needed
as he cannot drill from outside in and he cannot go into a boarded
out loft to drill outwards (not that my Dad would ever let them
drill outwards)

The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders
BEFORE they were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly
had a fit even though the base of the ladders were tight up against
a garden wall and could not slip backwards). With the extension lead
tied around his waist to take it's weight my Dad drilled a hole
before nipping into the loft and poking the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


You don't have to have Sky install a Sky system .. many independent
installers have been doing these for a long time and also do aerial
rigging in general, and are very used to ladders and lofts without any
of that ball cocks


I know. Do you want to tell my parents:-)?

Can anyone else remember back in the early 90s the analogue receivers when
you could fit a high powered zener diode across the chip inside it between
Reset and 0V and you could get movies "for free and forever"?

I seem to remember the diode got very hot but it blocked the switch off
signal that was sent from Sky.

Cheers

--
Adam

HappyHunter wrote:

I remember, about 9 years ago now, we got sky installed in the house.
There was me, 5ft 2" female, 2 week old baby in arms, sky engineer, big
burly chap, needed to install telephone extension and said "i'm not
allowed to move that furniture to fix this cable, you'll need to do it,
sorry love".

So I did. Ok, so equality and all that, but for f**k sake, there was me
humphing this furniture out the way, having had a baby 2 weeks
previously (by C section !), and he stood and watched. Don't think I've
ever been so genuinley aghast.

Did he hold the baby while you moved the furniture?

HappyHunter submitted this idea :
On 20/09/2010 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


I remember, about 9 years ago now, we got sky installed in the house. There
was me, 5ft 2" female, 2 week old baby in arms, sky engineer, big burly chap,
needed to install telephone extension and said "i'm not allowed to move that
furniture to fix this cable, you'll need to do it, sorry love".

So I did. Ok, so equality and all that, but for f**k sake, there was me
humphing this furniture out the way, having had a baby 2 weeks previously (by
C section !), and he stood and watched. Don't think I've ever been so
genuinley aghast.

A few months ago I managed to tear a tendon in my left foot. I could
not bear to put the foot to the ground and was in absolute agony. Being
the only driver around, I had to hop on one leg to get into the car
(automatic) to take myself into A&E. A&E were rung and warned to expect
me and that I would need a wheel chair and obviously have to park
somewhere close to the door to transfer to a chair - otherwise they
would need to send an ambulance.

I parked up as much out the way as possible, plenty of room for
ambulances to get in and out and it was quiet anyway - yet there was
one complaining as I struggled just to get into a wheel chair that I
couldn't leave my car there.

Got into the waiting room still in the (4x small wheel) chair and the 2
months pregnant assessment nurse asked me find a way to get myself into
her room - she wasn't allowed on H&S grounds to push me in. So I
struggled to reach down to the small wheels to turn them with my finger
tips - she said I wasn't allowed to even do that on H&S grounds, as I
might strain my fingers. A pensioner on sticks took pity on me and
pushed me in and later back out.

Then I was called through to the doctor, he came out and he refused to
push me - he wasn't allowed to on - you guessed H&S grounds, so the
crippled pensioner again stepped in to show him how its done.

Eventually another kind patient pushed me back out to my car and the
one complaining about my parking there made a parting shot of
threatening to report me for not being fit to drive if I couldn't walk
- of course I told him to get on with it in not very polite terms. An
automatic only needs one foot to be able to drive, you would normally
tuck your left foot out of the way anyway.

That was Pinderfields hospital at Wakefield.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
HappyHunter submitted this idea :
On 20/09/2010 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


I remember, about 9 years ago now, we got sky installed in the
house. There was me, 5ft 2" female, 2 week old baby in arms, sky
engineer, big burly chap, needed to install telephone extension and
said "i'm not allowed to move that furniture to fix this cable,
you'll need to do it, sorry love". So I did. Ok, so equality and all
that, but for f**k sake, there was
me humphing this furniture out the way, having had a baby 2 weeks
previously (by C section !), and he stood and watched. Don't think
I've ever been so genuinley aghast.

A few months ago I managed to tear a tendon in my left foot. I could
not bear to put the foot to the ground and was in absolute agony.
Being the only driver around, I had to hop on one leg to get into the
car (automatic) to take myself into A&E. A&E were rung and warned to
expect me and that I would need a wheel chair and obviously have to
park somewhere close to the door to transfer to a chair - otherwise
they would need to send an ambulance.

I parked up as much out the way as possible, plenty of room for
ambulances to get in and out and it was quiet anyway - yet there was
one complaining as I struggled just to get into a wheel chair that I
couldn't leave my car there.

Got into the waiting room still in the (4x small wheel) chair and the
2 months pregnant assessment nurse asked me find a way to get myself
into her room - she wasn't allowed on H&S grounds to push me in. So I
struggled to reach down to the small wheels to turn them with my
finger tips - she said I wasn't allowed to even do that on H&S
grounds, as I might strain my fingers. A pensioner on sticks took
pity on me and pushed me in and later back out.

Then I was called through to the doctor, he came out and he refused to
push me - he wasn't allowed to on - you guessed H&S grounds, so the
crippled pensioner again stepped in to show him how its done.

Eventually another kind patient pushed me back out to my car and the
one complaining about my parking there made a parting shot of
threatening to report me for not being fit to drive if I couldn't walk
- of course I told him to get on with it in not very polite terms. An
automatic only needs one foot to be able to drive, you would normally
tuck your left foot out of the way anyway.

That was Pinderfields hospital at Wakefield.


You have never met Staff Nurse C******** then?

I would say a trip to Pinderfields A&E is well worth the injury if she is on
duty.

--
Adam

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 20/09/10 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


Because they're gay?

Why would that have anything to do with it?
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

On Sep 20, 10:13*pm, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
That was Pinderfields hospital at Wakefield.

Meanwhile in Afghanistan & Iraq...
.... troops have to live and survive in a somewhat different world.

js.b1 wrote:
On Sep 20, 10:13 pm, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
That was Pinderfields hospital at Wakefield.

Meanwhile in Afghanistan & Iraq...
... troops have to live and survive in a somewhat different world.

Well it would take too long to drive to Wakefield.

--
Adam

cutCan anyone else remember back in the early 90s the analogue receivers
when
you could fit a high powered zener diode across the chip inside it between
Reset and 0V and you could get movies "for free and forever"?

I seem to remember the diode got very hot but it blocked the switch off
signal that was sent from Sky.

Oh yes and the "Little Witch" boom to fit a 2nd LMB for all those "Naughty"
channels.
IIR the diode eventually melted the casing if soldered in incorrectly.
Good old days of Squarials vs Dish
CJ

Then I was called through to the doctor, he came out and he refused to
push me - he wasn't allowed to on - you guessed H&S grounds, so the
crippled pensioner again stepped in to show him how its done.

Eventually another kind patient pushed me back out to my car and the
one complaining about my parking there made a parting shot of
threatening to report me for not being fit to drive if I couldn't walk
- of course I told him to get on with it in not very polite terms. An
automatic only needs one foot to be able to drive, you would normally
tuck your left foot out of the way anyway.

That was Pinderfields hospital at Wakefield.


Have you seen that FOI file on how much some in the NHS earn?.

Makes your eyes water .. really does;!...
--
Tony Sayer

ARWadsworth wrote:

So here is the Sky H&S gone mad.

Or perhaps not. Someone I know is being prosecuted by HSE. He owns a
company that installs aerials, and a worker was injured falling from a
roof.

The worker had been provided with safety gear, training and considerable
dollops of ear-lashing by his supervisor on the subject of safety and
working at heights. The worker chose not to use his safety harness that
day. Not forgot, chose. He had been reminded by his supervisor to wear
the bloody thing and to make sure it was connected to a secure point. He
refused to do so, in front of witnesses.

The HSE are attempting to punish the owner on the grounds that he should
personally have enforced the rules on a daily basis. So I can see why
Sky have passed these stupid rules. They probably know the rules are
stupid, but directors generally don't want to be personally fined or
sent to jail.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On Sep 20, 7:01 pm, "ARWadsworth" wrote:
1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

Wiring in lofts takes longer than chucking the cable over the roof or
tacking it down the wall.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

Drilling from the inside means any spalling happens outside, drilling
from the outside they might even drill into the wrong room. This is
not unknown even with non-sSky installers
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/stories...to-drill.shtml

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders
to the eye bolt.

So that Sky aren't liable if they fall off.

Owain



Should an employer train people to take risks is the opposite view. Of
course not - they are obliged to give instruction on the safest methods.
No-one goes to work to get injured.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On Sep 20, 7:01 pm, "ARWadsworth" wrote:
1. Sky engineers cannot go into a loft. Not even a boarded out loft with
lots of lights.

Wiring in lofts takes longer than chucking the cable over the roof or
tacking it down the wall.

2. Sky engineers can only drill from the inside to the outside.

Drilling from the inside means any spalling happens outside, drilling
from the outside they might even drill into the wrong room. This is
not unknown even with non-sSky installers
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/stories...to-drill.shtml

3. Sky engineers MUST install an eye bolt to the wall and secure the
ladders
to the eye bolt.

So that Sky aren't liable if they fall off.

Owain



Brilliant tale!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember fred saying
something like:

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 20/09/10 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?


Because they're gay?

Why would that have anything to do with it?

It's the floral hats that get in the way, darling.

On Sep 21, 7:35 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:31:52 +0100, Cash wrote:
Sky upgraded us to HD at the beginning of the year - and the installer
did drill the wall (after formally asking my permission), tie the
ladders to the wall and even used a safety harness clipped to the top of
the ladder so he 'couldn't' fall off if the ladder moved while he was
fitting the new dish (and he even wore his blue hard-hat) -

Not overly convinced that being attached to the top of the ladder is
particulary safe. It strikes me that the "safety officer" hasn't
heard of suspension trauma. You don't have long dangling in a harness
before you are in serious medical trouble. I guess the "safety
officer" is assuming that the engineer is still concious and will be
able to scramble back onto the ladder, bad assumption. A worse
assumption is that the householder will be able to assist or be
summoned to call for help fast enough.

What kind of safety harness doesn't allow you to dangle for long
periods? I only have abseiling harnesses so I use those. I can dangle
as long as I like

On 20 Sep, 19:46, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message

...

My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.

The guy that came to fit the dish was OTT with health and safety.

Insurance is one key thing ...

If they slip off ladder - big claim
If they slip off joist and put foot through ceiling - big claim

Easier to say no.

Just look at building trade, as student I worked weekends & holidays on site
... 1cwt *(50Kg if you are a child of the Nintendo) bags of cement were
humped about all over the place.
You can't buy one anymore .... only 25Kg ... as 15Kg is considered safe
limit for manual handling.

Last year I had new outbuilding, wanted roof tiled to match house .... 3
different roofers stated they wanted all round scaffolding to do the job
.... finally small builder with a horde of Polish workers came along and did
job of trestles & ladders.

Almost all time spent on the roof walking over OSB or battens ...
scaffolding would be of no help, other than when fitting first couple of
rows of tiles.

In days of yore, my famer uncle carried 2cwt /100Kg bags of grain up a
twenty foot ladder. Shifted several tons in a morning. He thought
they were no problem. He said there were 3cwt bags which might be more
of a struggle.
In his old age he paid for this with endless painful back problems.
They put scaffolding round the eves so that if anyone slips while on
the roof they will just roll down to the eves & not pitch over the
edge. There should also be a hand rail and toe boards.
If your Polish builders had fell off the roof & the H&S had got
involved there would have been all hell on.
Would you feel guilty if one died?

In article ,
Matty F writes:
On Sep 21, 7:35 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:31:52 +0100, Cash wrote:
Sky upgraded us to HD at the beginning of the year - and the installer
did drill the wall (after formally asking my permission), tie the
ladders to the wall and even used a safety harness clipped to the top of
the ladder so he 'couldn't' fall off if the ladder moved while he was
fitting the new dish (and he even wore his blue hard-hat) -

Not overly convinced that being attached to the top of the ladder is
particulary safe. It strikes me that the "safety officer" hasn't
heard of suspension trauma. You don't have long dangling in a harness
before you are in serious medical trouble. I guess the "safety
officer" is assuming that the engineer is still concious and will be
able to scramble back onto the ladder, bad assumption. A worse
assumption is that the householder will be able to assist or be
summoned to call for help fast enough.

What kind of safety harness doesn't allow you to dangle for long
periods? I only have abseiling harnesses so I use those. I can dangle
as long as I like

The problem comes if you're incapacitated or movement restricted,
as you might well be after a fall and catch by an arrest harness.
If you're dangling upright, you get only a few minutes before
blood pressure in upper part of your body drops to low, without
normal movement of limbs. Also, it's essential you are rescued by
someone who knows about the issue, and knows not to move you such
that blood which has become stagnant in the legs for some time
does not circulate back into the body without medical support
being present to deal with the instant toxic effects on the rest
of the body. So the first problem is not dying due to being hung
(which doesn't require a noose around the neck), and the second
is not dying due to misguided rescue, similar to release from a
crush injury.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sep 20, 10:33*pm, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes

On 20/09/10 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

Because they're gay?

Why would that have anything to do with it?

A lot. The meaning of the word has changed. Ask any teenager.

MBQ

On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 23:54:44 -0700 (PDT), Matty F wrote:

What kind of safety harness doesn't allow you to dangle for long
periods? I only have abseiling harnesses so I use those. I can dangle
as long as I like

IIRC the main problem is the lack of return blood supply from the
legs, leading to pooling of the blood in the legs. Then with more
blood than there should be in your legs there isn't enough blood,
therefore oxygen, for the brain and you pass out. Passing out when
fixed in a vertical position is not good, normally if you pass out
you fall over and the blood returns and all is well, that doesn't
happen if you are in a fixed vertical position...

Normally movement and muscle pressure forces the blood back up the
body (unless you are sat still for long periods, see problems with
DVT and long haul flights). When dangling in free space you don't
have anything for the legs to work against to shove the blood back
up. If concious you can try moving you legs but with nothing to work
against, other than you own opposing muscles, it's not very
effective. And if you stop 'cause you are knackered the blood pools
rather quickly and you pass out soon after stopping.

When abseiling you are not vertical but more or less horizontal and
you are working the legs against the cliff face, the suspension point
is low and frontal, leading to a more sitting position. A full body
Safety Harness has the suspension point about the shoulder blades so
you are suspened vertically. Having stirups or a loop so that the
legs can be elevated and te body moved into a laid back sitting
position would be a useful for those suspened and concious.

http://www.reactfirst.co.uk/live/Tips15.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_trauma

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 21/09/2010 07:54, Matty F wrote:
On Sep 21, 7:35 am, "Dave
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:31:52 +0100, Cash wrote:
Sky upgraded us to HD at the beginning of the year - and the installer
did drill the wall (after formally asking my permission), tie the
ladders to the wall and even used a safety harness clipped to the top of
the ladder so he 'couldn't' fall off if the ladder moved while he was
fitting the new dish (and he even wore his blue hard-hat) -

Not overly convinced that being attached to the top of the ladder is
particulary safe. It strikes me that the "safety officer" hasn't
heard of suspension trauma. You don't have long dangling in a harness
before you are in serious medical trouble. I guess the "safety
officer" is assuming that the engineer is still concious and will be
able to scramble back onto the ladder, bad assumption. A worse
assumption is that the householder will be able to assist or be
summoned to call for help fast enough.

What kind of safety harness doesn't allow you to dangle for long
periods?

There are fall arrest systems that allow you to fall all the way to the
ground, but at a safe speed. They also have the advantage of being
self-retracting, so are always at the right tension and there is no snap
load when you fall. They are, of course, a lot more expensive than a
simple restraint harness.

Colin Bignell

On 20/09/2010 19:01, ARWadsworth wrote:
My parents upgraded to Sky HD and Sky Plus this morning.
....
The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders BEFORE they
were secured to the wall (apparently the Sky man nearly had a fit even
though the base of the ladders were tight up against a garden wall and could
not slip backwards). With the extension lead tied around his waist to take
it's weight my Dad drilled a hole before nipping into the loft and poking
the CT100 through the hole.

If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

You make 67 sound old.

Colin Bignell

John Rumm wrote:

IIUC there is also a follow on risk from the body attempting its own
corrective action - i.e. that of feinting.

I doubt that in such circumstances the body would have much to gain by
trying to fool anyone.

"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

The solution was simple. My 67 year old Dad climbed the ladders
....
If a 67 year old man can do the job in a few minutes why can't Sky
engineers?

You make 67 sound old.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt...

In article ,
"js.b1" writes:
On Sep 20, 8:52*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
The eyebolt is installed at head height and is installed before you go up
the ladders. A strap is then used between the eyebolt and the ladders at
somewhere around 1/3rd of the height of the ladders.
Do they remove the eyebolt & make good?
The eyebolt would need to be into a brick face, not into mortar for
mechanical strength.

Don't know about Sky, but scaffolders always put them in the mortar.
They are thicker than the mortar gap anyway.

They are normally removed afterwards, but not made good IME.
On one occasion, I asked them to leave them in (used for stringing
party lights across the garden).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]