Fancy self cleaning oven - went to set it to clean mode this morning and
whilst removing the shelf supports one of the bolts has broken off :-(

It was tight (they always are) but not massively so :-(

So, as I now can't fit any shelves in the over, I need to get the broken
bit out somehow. Ideas? Access isn't fantastic and I don't seem to be
able to get to the back of the screw (there is masses of insulation that
appears to be impossible to remove.

Another possible option would be just to "glue" it back somehow - any
glue that might do. I'm not sure drilling it out will work but I'll give
it a go when it's cooled down (currently it's at 450 deg C :-))

Bugger. And I'm meant to have a day off to fix the fence not the oven :-/

Darren

On 19 May, 12:56, dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman) wrote:
Fancy self cleaning oven - went to set it to clean mode this morning and
whilst removing the shelf supports one of the bolts has broken off :-(

It was tight (they always are) but not massively so :-(

So, as I now can't fit any shelves in the over, I need to get the broken
bit out somehow. Ideas? Access isn't fantastic and I don't seem to be
able to get to the back of the screw (there is masses of insulation that
appears to be impossible to remove.

Another possible option would be just to "glue" it back somehow - any
glue that might do. I'm not sure drilling it out will work but I'll give
it a go when it's cooled down (currently it's at 450 deg C :-))

Bugger. And I'm meant to have a day off to fix the fence not the oven :-/

Darren

couple of thoughts....
might be easier to drill/move when still "hot"?

is it snapped flush or any chance of some molegrips being your friend
on a stubby bit?

or those reverse screw extractors...mixed reviews ISTR but may do the
trick here?

cheers
JimK

In article ,
JimK wrote:

couple of thoughts....
might be easier to drill/move when still "hot"?

Will try warm later.

is it snapped flush or any chance of some molegrips being your friend
on a stubby bit?

It's worse than that - snapped down in a hole. It's a 6mm bolt, snapped
in a 5 mm recess. No chance of getting anything on the end of it :-(

or those reverse screw extractors...mixed reviews ISTR but may do the
trick here?

Yeah. Might be the only option I suspect. Grrrrr.

Cheers,

Darren

D.M.Chapman wrote:
In ,
wrote:

couple of thoughts....
might be easier to drill/move when still "hot"?

Will try warm later.

is it snapped flush or any chance of some molegrips being your friend
on a stubby bit?

It's worse than that - snapped down in a hole. It's a 6mm bolt, snapped
in a 5 mm recess. No chance of getting anything on the end of it :-(

or those reverse screw extractors...mixed reviews ISTR but may do the
trick here?

Yeah. Might be the only option I suspect. Grrrrr.

Cheers,

Darren


Do you need to remove it? Can you not drill another hole nearby and fit
a self tapping screw instead?

Bob

In article ,
Bob Minchin wrote:

Do you need to remove it? Can you not drill another hole nearby and fit
a self tapping screw instead?

Not easily - it needs to line up with a shaped part of the shelf bracket
that hooks over the screw. It's the only bit that actually touches the side
so it wouldn't be trivial to fit something elsewhere.

Last resort will be to try to make up some sort of bracket to hang down with
a thread on the end. Dads got a set of reverse drills and some easyout
thingers - I'll give that a go first.

Nothing to lose (he says tempting fate ;-))

Darren

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article
,
JimK wrote:

couple of thoughts....
might be easier to drill/move when still "hot"?

Will try warm later.

is it snapped flush or any chance of some molegrips being your friend
on a stubby bit?

It's worse than that - snapped down in a hole. It's a 6mm bolt, snapped
in a 5 mm recess. No chance of getting anything on the end of it :-(

or those reverse screw extractors...mixed reviews ISTR but may do the
trick here?

Yeah. Might be the only option I suspect. Grrrrr.

Cheers,

Darren

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw? No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.

S

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw?

Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive nut
thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the thin
steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger (what are
they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would work. I'm imagining
something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and somehow swell it on the back
so it becomes captive. Does this exist? If so, what is it called (and where
the hell can I buy one or two and not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger with a
6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.

Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did the
job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from then on

Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to explain
to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

On Wed, 19 May 2010 17:43:28 +0000 (UTC), D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw?

Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive nut
thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the thin
steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger (what are
they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would work. I'm imagining
something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and somehow swell it on the back
so it becomes captive. Does this exist? If so, what is it called (and where
the hell can I buy one or two and not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger with a
6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.

Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did the
job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from then on

Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to explain
to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

I'm sure I've seen some square nuts with a thin spring steel piece fixed
over them. They push into a square hole from the side that you can get to
and clip themselves in. Unfortunately I can't think of a name for them or
where to get them, but maybe someone else can?

SteveW

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
spamlet wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw?

Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive nut
thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the thin
steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger (what are
they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would work. I'm
imagining
something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and somehow swell it on the
back
so it becomes captive. Does this exist? If so, what is it called (and
where
the hell can I buy one or two and not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger with a
6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt
is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and
retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap
this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.

Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did the
job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from then on


Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to
explain
to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

That has rather made things difficult. There are numerous different designs
of cavity wall fixing but whether you will find a heat resistant one that
will fit in the gap and open up properly I don't know.

One further thought is that you might find that the sealer they use for
exhaust pipes (Firegum?) can be used to fill the hole. Then when it is
beginning to 'go off', set the bolt with its nut already on in roughly the
right position, level off with more firegum, and hold it in place with
something until it sets. Then run the oven up to temp to cure it before
trying any load. It might work...

In similar vein, you might be able to glue a thicker piece of ready tapped
plate (or a washer with your own new 'captive nut' glued to the back) over
the top of the old hole (one of the push out blanks from a pattress box
might be about the right size.).

S

Steve Walker wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2010 17:43:28 +0000 (UTC), D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw?
Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive nut
thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the thin
steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger (what are
they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would work. I'm imagining
something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and somehow swell it on the back
so it becomes captive. Does this exist? If so, what is it called (and where
the hell can I buy one or two and not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger with a
6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.
Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did the
job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from then on

Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to explain
to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

I'm sure I've seen some square nuts with a thin spring steel piece fixed
over them. They push into a square hole from the side that you can get to
and clip themselves in. Unfortunately I can't think of a name for them or
where to get them, but maybe someone else can?

SteveW

Cage nuts.

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20744/16-025

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20...INSERTION-TOOL

"spamlet" wrote in message
...

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
spamlet wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill and
tap
the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set screw?

Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive nut
thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the
thin
steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger (what are
they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would work. I'm
imagining
something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and somehow swell it on the
back
so it becomes captive. Does this exist? If so, what is it called (and
where
the hell can I buy one or two and not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests
they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger with
a
6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair opportunities
arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so unless the broken bolt
is
fairly loose it is generally easier to drill out the softer bolt and
retap.
In extremis you can put a 6mm thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap
this
into the broken bolt's hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm
bolt.

Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did the
job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from then
on

Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to
explain
to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

That has rather made things difficult. There are numerous different
designs of cavity wall fixing but whether you will find a heat resistant
one that will fit in the gap and open up properly I don't know.

One further thought is that you might find that the sealer they use for
exhaust pipes (Firegum?) can be used to fill the hole. Then when it is
beginning to 'go off', set the bolt with its nut already on in roughly the
right position, level off with more firegum, and hold it in place with
something until it sets. Then run the oven up to temp to cure it before
trying any load. It might work...

In similar vein, you might be able to glue a thicker piece of ready tapped
plate (or a washer with your own new 'captive nut' glued to the back) over
the top of the old hole (one of the push out blanks from a pattress box
might be about the right size.).

S

Just checked, and firegum swells when it is heated, so you could set it in
place with a little blowlamp flame so as to avoid the water condensation
when you turn on the oven

A further, 'non glue', method, might be to make an oblong of strip steel as
wide as the hole but longer. Tap this in the middle. Put a nut on the
bolt, followed by a washer bigger than the hole, followed by the tapped
piece of steel. Manoeuvre the tapped oblong into the hole then tighten the
washer down on to it with the nut, neatly covering hole and giving you a new
bolt ready mounted.

S

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:

I'm sure I've seen some square nuts with a thin spring steel piece fixed
over them. They push into a square hole from the side that you can get to
and clip themselves in. Unfortunately I can't think of a name for them or
where to get them, but maybe someone else can?

They're used in equipment racks. Not sure if you're thinking of cage
nuts or spring nuts.

Hmmm.... cage nuts. That's an idea. I could square off the hole with
my dremel and I've hundreds of cage nuts at work - we use stacks of
them. Dunno why I didn't think of that.

Dunno how important it is that the oven is sealed though - I can imagine
steam filling the insulation via the hole which seems less than ideal. Also,
would they cope with 500 deg C? (I guess I could just never clean it
again :-))

Still, it's an idea...

Cheers,

Darren

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Just checked, and firegum swells when it is heated, so you could set it in
place with a little blowlamp flame so as to avoid the water condensation
when you turn on the oven

Ok, that might work. I'd prefer it to be fairly air tight (so not keen
on the cage nut idea) as I don't really know what's behind the panel.

A further, 'non glue', method, might be to make an oblong of strip steel as
wide as the hole but longer. Tap this in the middle. Put a nut on the
bolt, followed by a washer bigger than the hole, followed by the tapped
piece of steel. Manoeuvre the tapped oblong into the hole then tighten the
washer down on to it with the nut, neatly covering hole and giving you a new
bolt ready mounted.

Not entirely sure I follow this...

What keeps it in attached to the side of the oven?

One thing I was pondering was a strip of steel with a couple of selftappers
one above, one below the hole. Then a bolt sticking out of the strip and
I can then hold the shelf bracket to that with a nut+washer. Will need to
check it'll still allow be to take out the shelf bracket though. Is
that what you meant?

Darren

In article , D.M.Chapman wrote:
Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Rivet nut? (Same sort of thing, but designed for one sided access.)

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Just checked, and firegum swells when it is heated, so you could set it in
place with a little blowlamp flame so as to avoid the water condensation
when you turn on the oven

Ok, that might work. I'd prefer it to be fairly air tight (so not keen
on the cage nut idea) as I don't really know what's behind the panel.

A further, 'non glue', method, might be to make an oblong of strip steel
as
wide as the hole but longer. Tap this in the middle. Put a nut on the
bolt, followed by a washer bigger than the hole, followed by the tapped
piece of steel. Manoeuvre the tapped oblong into the hole then tighten
the
washer down on to it with the nut, neatly covering hole and giving you a
new
bolt ready mounted.

Not entirely sure I follow this...

What keeps it in attached to the side of the oven?

You are clamping the sides of the oven between the tapped oblong - which you
have poked, on the end of the bolt, through the 9.5mm hole - and the
conventional washer, by tightening the lock nut down while you hold the hex
end of the bolt at the desired position. (Its a pretty standard method to
use lock nuts like this - as anyone tensioning cam chains on bikes will tell
you.)


One thing I was pondering was a strip of steel with a couple of
selftappers
one above, one below the hole. Then a bolt sticking out of the strip and
I can then hold the shelf bracket to that with a nut+washer. Will need to
check it'll still allow be to take out the shelf bracket though. Is
that what you meant?

Similar idea, but in my case the strip of metal is between the two skins of
the oven rather than on top of the inner one, and, with a lock nut you don't
need the self tappers... But you will have to make sure the nut still
leaves you room for whatever the shelf attachments are, just as you would
with the self tapper heads.

As for steam, I should think that firegum would fill any gaps for you
whichever way you proceed.
S

On 19 May, 20:43, dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman) wrote:
In article ,

spamlet wrote:
Just checked, and firegum swells when it is heated, so you could set it in
place with a little blowlamp flame so as to avoid the water condensation
when you turn on the oven

Ok, that might work. I'd prefer it to be fairly air tight (so not keen
on the cage nut idea) as I don't really know what's behind the panel.

A further, 'non glue', method, might be to make an oblong of strip steel as
wide as the hole but longer. Tap this in the middle. Put a nut on the
bolt, followed by a washer bigger than the hole, followed by the tapped
piece of steel. Manoeuvre the tapped oblong into the hole then tighten the
washer down on to it with the nut, neatly covering hole and giving you a new
bolt ready mounted.

Not entirely sure I follow this...

What keeps it in attached to the side of the oven?

One thing I was pondering was a strip of steel with a couple of selftappers
one above, one below the hole. Then a bolt sticking out of the strip and
I can then hold the shelf bracket to that with a nut+washer. Will need to
check it'll still allow be to take out the shelf bracket though. Is
that what you meant?

Darren

if you mounted the steel strip on the outer side of the steel skin
(depends on what/how insulation is?) that could poss. be ideal?

bit of accurate drilling of oven wall and strip, strip drilled/tapped
for bolt (poss with bolt already in to assist lining it all up for
self tappers through oven wall into strip.....bit of firegum if you
wish for attempt at seal - though 450 sounds hot for stove/exhaust
gear...

Cheers
JimK

"JimK" wrote in message
...
On 19 May, 20:43, dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman) wrote:
In article ,

spamlet wrote:
Just checked, and firegum swells when it is heated, so you could set it
in
place with a little blowlamp flame so as to avoid the water condensation
when you turn on the oven

Ok, that might work. I'd prefer it to be fairly air tight (so not keen
on the cage nut idea) as I don't really know what's behind the panel.

A further, 'non glue', method, might be to make an oblong of strip steel
as
wide as the hole but longer. Tap this in the middle. Put a nut on the
bolt, followed by a washer bigger than the hole, followed by the tapped
piece of steel. Manoeuvre the tapped oblong into the hole then tighten
the
washer down on to it with the nut, neatly covering hole and giving you a
new
bolt ready mounted.

Not entirely sure I follow this...

What keeps it in attached to the side of the oven?

One thing I was pondering was a strip of steel with a couple of
selftappers
one above, one below the hole. Then a bolt sticking out of the strip and
I can then hold the shelf bracket to that with a nut+washer. Will need to
check it'll still allow be to take out the shelf bracket though. Is
that what you meant?

Darren

if you mounted the steel strip on the outer side of the steel skin
(depends on what/how insulation is?) that could poss. be ideal?

bit of accurate drilling of oven wall and strip, strip drilled/tapped
for bolt (poss with bolt already in to assist lining it all up for
self tappers through oven wall into strip.....bit of firegum if you
wish for attempt at seal - though 450 sounds hot for stove/exhaust
gear...

Cheers
JimK

My BSA exhaust clamps used to glow in the dark, and the firegum/gungum still
held.

S

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Similar idea, but in my case the strip of metal is between the two skins of
the oven rather than on top of the inner one, and, with a lock nut you don't
need the self tappers... But you will have to make sure the nut still
leaves you room for whatever the shelf attachments are, just as you would
with the self tapper heads.

ah, so the bolt sticks out into the over forever more. Yep, I get you.
Wouldn't want the head on it sticking out though, as I'll need a nut on
the end so I can remove the bracket in the future. Sounds promising though

That may well work, as long as I can get the shelf thing out with a bolt
sticking out. Certainly sounds more workable than trying to fit some sort
of captive nut.

Will attempt to nip to toolstation and stock up on SS bolts and nuts to have
a play with. Hopefully they will have something suitable for the strip to
poke through the hole.

As for steam, I should think that firegum would fill any gaps for you
whichever way you proceed.

Yeah, may pick some up. The oven only gets up to 450 deg on the cleaning
cycle (which I could just ignore, but it would be a shame and would mean
I'd have to clean it properly :-)). Still, firegum should be fine at
that temp, I've used it on exhaust manifolds that have been hotter than
that...

Darren

In article ,
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , D.M.Chapman wrote:
Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Rivet nut? (Same sort of thing, but designed for one sided access.)


Ahha! Yes, they look like the thing that was in there. Do I need a special
tool to fit them? And, where the hell can I buy a couple :-)

Darren

On Wed, 19 May 2010 20:05:28 +0100, Dave Osborne wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2010 17:43:28 +0000 (UTC), D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article , spamlet
wrote:

If it's down a 5mm hole, y not drill it right out with a 5mm drill
and tap the whole thing back to 6mm, for a standard bolt or set
screw?
Right, that was the plan. All was going well until the bloody captive
nut thinger started to spin. Grrrrr.

Anyway, long story short and all that, I now have a 9.5mm hole in the
thin steel side of the oven. Ideally, I want a captive nut thinger
(what are they called?) to put in but I've no idea how this would
work. I'm imagining something that I poke through the 9.5mm hole and
somehow swell it on the back so it becomes captive. Does this exist?
If so, what is it called (and where the hell can I buy one or two and
not 1000!)

Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests
they need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non
trivial (and potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on
:-()

Maybe something like a giant (but short!) self tapping 10mm thinger
with a 6mm thread in the middle - that would be perfect. Does it
exist?


No DIY kit
is complete without a basic set of taps and dies, and a set of srew
extractors: once you have them a whole new world of repair
opportunities arrises. The latter are hard and break easily so
unless the broken bolt is fairly loose it is generally easier to
drill out the softer bolt and retap. In extremis you can put a 6mm
thread inside a drilled out 8mm bolt, tap this into the broken bolt's
hole and then saw it off flush to take a new 6mm bolt.
Yep, had all that, and some nifty backward drills that *almost* did
the job. Then the nut started spinning and it all went pearshaped from
then on

Still, most of the fence fixed. just the awkward panel to fit. Now to
explain to SWMBO why we can't use the oven tonight...

Darren

I'm sure I've seen some square nuts with a thin spring steel piece
fixed over them. They push into a square hole from the side that you
can get to and clip themselves in. Unfortunately I can't think of a
name for them or where to get them, but maybe someone else can?

SteveW

Cage nuts.

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20744/16-025

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/20...INSERTION-TOOL

Not sure they'll work, but Darren can find plenty of them at work!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
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On Wed, 19 May 2010 19:38:53 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:

I'm sure I've seen some square nuts with a thin spring steel piece
fixed over them. They push into a square hole from the side that you
can get to and clip themselves in. Unfortunately I can't think of a
name for them or where to get them, but maybe someone else can?

They're used in equipment racks. Not sure if you're thinking of cage
nuts or spring nuts.

Cage nuts go into the square holes in the risers in a rack. That way
when you're trying to mount the (heavy) equipment in the rack the nut is
in position and all you've got to do is push the bolt through the flange
on the kit, through the square hole and into the nut, which can't
rotate. Easier then to do it up.

Spring nuts slide into slots in the rack (and so their position can be
adjusted) but again, once in the slot they can't rotate and so it's
easier for the poor bugger using them.

These klods:

http://www.knuerr.co.uk/

provide them for their equipment racks although I don't know if they're
suitable for what you need.

Again, if Darren wants one I can give him one or two.

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On Wed, 19 May 2010 20:42:40 +0000, D.M.Chapman wrote:

In article , Alan Braggins
wrote:
In article , D.M.Chapman wrote:
Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests
they need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial
(and potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Rivet nut? (Same sort of thing, but designed for one sided access.)


Ahha! Yes, they look like the thing that was in there. Do I need a
special tool to fit them? And, where the hell can I buy a couple :-)

Darren

Used on the old DEC racks (with round holes). If there aren't any around,
I have some.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
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*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article , D.M.Chapman wrote:
In article ,
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , D.M.Chapman wrote:
Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Rivet nut? (Same sort of thing, but designed for one sided access.)

Ahha! Yes, they look like the thing that was in there. Do I need a special
tool to fit them?

You probably need a special tool to do a decent job of it, but you can
improvise with a nut and bolt and washers and spacers.

And, where the hell can I buy a couple :-)

In Cambridge, Mackay. Locally to you if you aren't near Cambridge, or
online, no idea :-).

On Wed, 19 May 2010 19:35:12 +0000 (UTC), dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman)
wrote:


Hmmm.... cage nuts. That's an idea. I could square off the hole with
my dremel and I've hundreds of cage nuts at work - we use stacks of
them. Dunno why I didn't think of that.

Cage nut needs to be fitted from the other side to which you have no
access. Rivet nuts (especially for a hole now nearly 10mm) usually
need horribly expensive setting tools. A better solution might be to
make the hole bigger so a captive nut can go through and then mount
the captive nut (eg
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/437698.xml)
on its own small steel plate. Pop rivet the steel plate (backed with
fire gum) into the oven wall.

On Wed, 19 May 2010 20:42:40 +0000 (UTC), dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman) wrote:

Ahha! Yes, they look like the thing that was in there. Do I need a special
tool to fit them?

There's a tool to fit them, like a pop rivet tool.

However, I've been told that a nut and bolt can be also be used to set them.
Insert bolt, tighten nut against top of the rivet nut, using suitable washers
and spacers and such.


Thomas Prufer

Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 19 May 2010 19:35:12 +0000 (UTC), dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman)
wrote:

Hmmm.... cage nuts. That's an idea. I could square off the hole with
my dremel and I've hundreds of cage nuts at work - we use stacks of
them. Dunno why I didn't think of that.

Cage nut needs to be fitted from the other side to which you have no
access. Rivet nuts (especially for a hole now nearly 10mm) usually
need horribly expensive setting tools. A better solution might be to
make the hole bigger so a captive nut can go through and then mount
the captive nut (eg
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/437698.xml)
on its own small steel plate. Pop rivet the steel plate (backed with
fire gum) into the oven wall.

Peter, I assume that this nut is forced into the steel plate so that the
serrations keep it from rotating. If this is the case, I would try and
peen the edge of the serration end, so that the heat/cold cycles don't
loosen it over time. If it does loosen, the next time the bolt is
removed, the nut might fall out into the void.

Dave

On Thu, 20 May 2010 20:15:07 +0100, Dave
wrote:

Peter Parry wrote:

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/437698.xml)
on its own small steel plate. Pop rivet the steel plate (backed with
fire gum) into the oven wall.

Peter, I assume that this nut is forced into the steel plate so that the
serrations keep it from rotating. If this is the case, I would try and
peen the edge of the serration end, so that the heat/cold cycles don't
loosen it over time. If it does loosen, the next time the bolt is
removed, the nut might fall out into the void.

You are correct - the insertion method is to press the fitting into
the metal sheet. Once inserted the end is expanded by putting the
flat end on a steel plate, putting the ball end of a ball pein hammer
into the serrated end and whacking the flat end of the ball pein with
another hammer to turn over and expand the insert.

On 19/05/2010 21:11, Alan Braggins wrote:
In , D.M.Chapman wrote:
Clinch nut comes to mind - is that the thing? A quick google suggests they
need access to both sides of the panel which is rather non trivial (and
potentially destroy the insulation that appears bonded on :-()

Rivet nut? (Same sort of thing, but designed for one sided access.)

Google Nutserts?

e.g http://www.nutserts.co.uk/

--
Adrian C

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Similar idea, but in my case the strip of metal is between the two skins
of
the oven rather than on top of the inner one, and, with a lock nut you
don't
need the self tappers... But you will have to make sure the nut still
leaves you room for whatever the shelf attachments are, just as you would
with the self tapper heads.

ah, so the bolt sticks out into the over forever more. Yep, I get you.
Wouldn't want the head on it sticking out though, as I'll need a nut on
the end so I can remove the bracket in the future. Sounds promising though

That may well work, as long as I can get the shelf thing out with a bolt
sticking out. Certainly sounds more workable than trying to fit some sort
of captive nut.

Will attempt to nip to toolstation and stock up on SS bolts and nuts to
have
a play with. Hopefully they will have something suitable for the strip to
poke through the hole.

As for steam, I should think that firegum would fill any gaps for you
whichever way you proceed.

Yeah, may pick some up. The oven only gets up to 450 deg on the cleaning
cycle (which I could just ignore, but it would be a shame and would mean
I'd have to clean it properly :-)). Still, firegum should be fine at
that temp, I've used it on exhaust manifolds that have been hotter than
that...

Darren

Without actually seeing the way your shelves and the like go in I had got
the impression that you needed the bolt to suspend a shelf or its bracket
from. If you don't need the head, you could always saw it off after
tightening the lock nut, or just use threaded rod sawn to size instead. You
can also get taylor made studs with allen sockets in the end - though I
can't say I've ever needed to buy any as I used to test them years ago, and
have had plenty to fill any occasional need I've had for them until now
(used to be v useful for holding carbeurretteurs on...)

S

In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Without actually seeing the way your shelves and the like go in I had got
the impression that you needed the bolt to suspend a shelf or its bracket
from. If you don't need the head, you could always saw it off after
tightening the lock nut,



Right, just had a look at it and have managed to sort out something with
a stainless bolt, washer and a cross dowel I found in the bottom of my
box-of-crap-that-might-be-handy-one-day :-)


Original bolt on one side http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmchapman/4628609655/
Bodge on other side :-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmchapman/4628609211

Filed the hole out slightly so it was long enough to get the cross dowel
in with a lump of gun gum. Turned it so it was across the narrow part of the
hole and then a washer and a thin nut I found laying around in the office.
I mangled the thread up on the hidden end and screwed it into the dowel
until it jammed so hopefully it won't be tempted to come loose...

It's running a cleaning cycle now - if it survives that I'll declare it
fixed :-)

Thanks for all the ideas. As always it become more obvious when sat in
front of it with a load of bits to play with :-)

Cheers,

Darren

"D.M.Chapman" dmc@puffin. wrote in message
...
In article ,
spamlet wrote:

Without actually seeing the way your shelves and the like go in I had got
the impression that you needed the bolt to suspend a shelf or its bracket
from. If you don't need the head, you could always saw it off after
tightening the lock nut,



Right, just had a look at it and have managed to sort out something with
a stainless bolt, washer and a cross dowel I found in the bottom of my
box-of-crap-that-might-be-handy-one-day :-)


Original bolt on one side
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmchapman/4628609655/
Bodge on other side :-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmchapman/4628609211

Filed the hole out slightly so it was long enough to get the cross dowel
in with a lump of gun gum. Turned it so it was across the narrow part of
the
hole and then a washer and a thin nut I found laying around in the office.
I mangled the thread up on the hidden end and screwed it into the dowel
until it jammed so hopefully it won't be tempted to come loose...

It's running a cleaning cycle now - if it survives that I'll declare it
fixed :-)

Thanks for all the ideas. As always it become more obvious when sat in
front of it with a load of bits to play with :-)

Cheers,

Darren

Well it's very good to see the end results of a long thread: and I reckon
your 'bodge' (from the outside at least) looks better than the original!
(The car looks pretty impressive too: did you make that as well? It's
looking more and more like I'm out of my league here! :-)

I'll have to see about getting one of these picture posting places. Is
flickr what diy group people generally use?

Cheers,
S