http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if you
are not required to.

In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-
wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturers
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-
wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturer's
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

I do get annoyed when these "standards" aren't easily accessible, or can
only be bought for an exorbitant amount. Perhaps any consequential
legislation should be making these standards available for free?

Fredxx
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 11:42


"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-
wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturer's
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

I do get annoyed when these "standards" aren't easily accessible, or can
only be bought for an exorbitant amount. Perhaps any consequential
legislation should be making these standards available for free?

The Building Regs approved documents are free online - and cover much to do
with these stoves, including fluing and ventilation. But if you aren't in
the know, it wouldn't occur to go looking.

So, I agree that the instructions should contain an installer section which
details acceptable flues, ventilation requirements and testing procedures.

The instructions could even just give some minimal standard cases with a
link to the appropriate ADs. Even my Aga came with woefully patchtic
instructions. Didn't even detail accurately the acceptable range of fuels,
let alone much about installation.

I suspect something as simple as a smoke match would have shown if the draw
was adequate or not (I tested mine, even though HETAS installed, just out
of curiosity).

Feel sad for the Dad involved.


--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Watts saying
something like:

I suspect something as simple as a smoke match would have shown if the draw
was adequate or not (I tested mine, even though HETAS installed, just out
of curiosity).

I wonder if the top of the flue may have been subject to a downdraught
in some weather conditions and a smoke test may not have shown much up.

Feel sad for the Dad involved.

He must be gutted.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Fredxx
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 11:42


"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-
wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturer's
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

I do get annoyed when these "standards" aren't easily accessible, or can
only be bought for an exorbitant amount. Perhaps any consequential
legislation should be making these standards available for free?

The Building Regs approved documents are free online - and cover much to
do
with these stoves, including fluing and ventilation. But if you aren't in
the know, it wouldn't occur to go looking.

So, I agree that the instructions should contain an installer section
which
details acceptable flues, ventilation requirements and testing procedures.

The instructions could even just give some minimal standard cases with a
link to the appropriate ADs. Even my Aga came with woefully patchtic
instructions. Didn't even detail accurately the acceptable range of fuels,
let alone much about installation.

I suspect something as simple as a smoke match would have shown if the
draw
was adequate or not (I tested mine, even though HETAS installed, just out
of curiosity).

Feel sad for the Dad involved.

Our Stovax Stockton came with comprehensive installation instructions
including minimum diameter and length of flue and ventilation requirements.
There is also an installer check list including smoke test and spillage
test.

It is dated 2004 and includes guidance that building regulations plus any
additional local regulations 'should be understood' and that if there is any
conflict between the regulations and the booklet the regulations apply.
It also advices talking to the local BCO.
The one thing it doesn't have is a URL for the regulations, which is a
shame.

All in all a comprehensive booklet.

And yes, it must be hard to come to terms with the fact that you helped
install the stove that killed your son.

Cheers

Dave R

Grimly Curmudgeon
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 14:10

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Watts saying
something like:

I suspect something as simple as a smoke match would have shown if the
draw was adequate or not (I tested mine, even though HETAS installed, just
out of curiosity).

I wonder if the top of the flue may have been subject to a downdraught
in some weather conditions and a smoke test may not have shown much up.


That could happen I suppose. Mine behaves differently depending on the wind,
but the draw is always excellent. Sometimes, with the right wind, I feel I
could run a blast furnace ;-

Feel sad for the Dad involved.

He must be gutted.

Taking at face value (despite the Mail's crap reporting) - this doesn't have
the feel of wanton bodgery. It has the feel of lack of information. OK, one
can always say he should have checked it out, but if the instructions had
an installation section that was decent (like many boilers) I suspect he
would have taken heed.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"In January this year he used money from a £2,800 lottery win to buy
the £500 Cottager 2 cast iron stove."

Clarke Cottager 2, sold by Machinemart and others, but not on the
Hetas approved list.

Onetap
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 17:23

Clarke Cottager 2

Looked that up and skimmed the manual. The only safety get-out I can find
is:

"7. The installation of the stove and chimney MUST comply with all national,
european and local
building regulations. It is the responsibility of the owner and the
installer to ensure that the
installation complies."

(Page 3)

Sadly, it goes into great detail WRT to the placement of the stove itself,
but apart from mentioning 2 bends max and no connecting to shared flues, it
mentions very little else.

I can see how a "reasonable man" could read those instructions, conclude
(due to the massive detail regarding placement) that the instructions
were "complete", follow them and end up with a dangerous situation.

Really, IMO, those instructions *should* have mentioned HETAS and Building
control (they didn't) and either should have gone into as much detail
regarding the flue as the placement, or at least say "esure the flue and
ventilation complies with Parts blah and blah of the Building Regulations
or something to that effect.

I didn't even know Clarke sold stoves...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On 7 May, 17:54, Tim Watts wrote:
Onetap
* wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 17:23

Clarke Cottager 2

Looked that up and skimmed the manual. The only safety get-out I can find



Yes, just done that as well;
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/pages/d...0746B&a=stream

I can't see any mention of fixed permanent ventilation at all.Have I
missed it?
An inexcusable omission if it's not there.

Onetap
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 18:03

On 7 May, 17:54, Tim Watts wrote:
Onetap
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 17:23

Clarke Cottager 2

Looked that up and skimmed the manual. The only safety get-out I can find



Yes, just done that as well;

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/pages/d...0746B&a=stream

I can't see any mention of fixed permanent ventilation at all.Have I
missed it?
An inexcusable omission if it's not there.

I didn;t notice that either - though I didn't run a text search for it (did
re HETAS and Building Control).

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

I wonder if the top of the flue may have been subject to a downdraught
in some weather conditions and a smoke test may not have shown much up.

My guess is that it was a combination of factors - and somehow it got
to the point where the fire was consuming what oxygen was available,
and not producing much smoke - but not enough heat and ventilation to
keep the flue gases moving upwards.

The news article mentions a summerhouse, so I'm guessing the flue was
rather short, and possibly didn't clear surrounding terrain (and/or
walls, buildings, trees etc) very well. It may have been burning a
fuel not so suited to a stove such as coal (better on open fires) -
rather than wood or coalite, the adjustable airvents on the stove were
probably closed, and room ventilation either insufficient or blocked.

Usually a blocked flue (or downdraught) will produce copious smoke,
and insufficient ventilation at the bottom will make it go out.

But if you put all the factors together, you might get a fire
producing significant CO.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you are not required to.

We have one of those gas fires that supposedly absorbs its nasty fumes
through a catalyst. It passes all the necessary tests, but you can't
actually use it without using up all the oxygen in the room: unless you
leave the windows open, which rather defeats the object...

S

Our Stovax Stockton came with comprehensive installation instructions...

My Jotul was pretty much the same. I installed my own, including the
flue in a disused masonry chimney, cross-referenced the approved docs
with the manufacturer instructions and under a building control
application.

In most cases a poorly installed/faulty woodburner would smoke badly -
unlike a gas boiler that would produce fumes that the user may
acclimatise too.

I would think the much greater dangers from poorly installed/faulty
woodburners are house fires.

On Fri, 7 May 2010 11:42:59 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-
wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturer's
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

I do get annoyed when these "standards" aren't easily accessible, or can
only be bought for an exorbitant amount. Perhaps any consequential
legislation should be making these standards available for free?

What really winds me up is that the relevant standards are generally
written committeez, the members of which work in the industry and are
providing their time at their company's cost! I know this as my father used
to be on a number of BS and IEC committees and indeed chairman of some.
Some of the things I work on (chemical and nuclear industries), could
require me to obtain thirty or more standards, which makes it nigh on
impossible for me to quote for many small projects that I as an individual
could do, as the cost of the standards would make me uncompetetive with
large companies that can share the cost through all their business.

SteveW

Price of a CO detector is not much to pay, HETAS installed or not.
Thinking of a HETAS installed wood burner near me, reduced the height
of the rear chimney, which when combined with a hill dumps everything
in my yard - delightful if anything with paint on gets burnt and is
drawn in through the house vents.

On 7 May, 18:40, "spamlet" wrote:
"David WE Roberts" wrote in ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-dies-summerh...

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even if
you are not required to.

We have one of those gas fires that supposedly absorbs its nasty fumes
through a catalyst. *It passes all the necessary tests, but you can't
actually use it without using up all the oxygen in the room: unless you
leave the windows open, which rather defeats the object...

S

Ok guys - installed my own wood/coal burning stove over 25 years ago,
so what problems should I have been aware of and what is HETAS (I
could have googled it but your opinions are worth considerably more!).
We do only burn wood on it now. I certainly don't remember any
significant instructions though I was aware that air in is important.
The chimney and flue were a modern build in an old cottage by the
local stone mason.

We have had people sleep in the sitting room !
Rob

js.b1
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 20:19

Price of a CO detector is not much to pay, HETAS installed or not.
Thinking of a HETAS installed wood burner near me, reduced the height
of the rear chimney, which when combined with a hill dumps everything
in my yard - delightful if anything with paint on gets burnt and is
drawn in through the house vents.

Even mine can dump into the back garden during lighting up if the wind is
wrong - and that's on a 7-8m chimney! I noticed because I was starting some
coal off with bits of old pallet (with some sort of blue stain/paint on)
and it did rather wiff out back. I was surprised... Fortunately the effect
seems to stop when the fire's up to temperature (hotter gasses I guess,
and/or more complete combustion).

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

robgraham
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 21:25

On 7 May, 18:40, "spamlet" wrote:
"David WE Roberts" wrote in
...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-dies-summerh...

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even
if you are not required to.

We have one of those gas fires that supposedly absorbs its nasty fumes
through a catalyst. *It passes all the necessary tests, but you can't
actually use it without using up all the oxygen in the room: unless you
leave the windows open, which rather defeats the object...

S

Ok guys - installed my own wood/coal burning stove over 25 years ago,
so what problems should I have been aware of and what is HETAS (I
could have googled it but your opinions are worth considerably more!).
We do only burn wood on it now. I certainly don't remember any
significant instructions though I was aware that air in is important.
The chimney and flue were a modern build in an old cottage by the
local stone mason.

We have had people sleep in the sitting room !
Rob

Roughly, from my basic understanding:

Flue cross section area - this is why liners may be required even if the
chimney is in good condition; the average chimney may be too big to work
properly with a tiny stove. Rather non intuitive.

Chimney condition - another reason liners are common.

Correct liner if used - stove liners are somewhat heavier than gas liners
(and bloody expensive).

Use of bends in flue (ie not too many)

Height of flue (rather non intuitive)

Correct jointing of flue components (ie not leak)

Correct ventilation into room, taking into account other combustion
appliances and any extraction fans nearby.

Spacing of stove from combustable materials.

Spacing of stove from non combustables round side and back (typically to
allow it to lose heat, mine says 2" min)

Floor it's sitting on

Raised hearth sometimes needed




I'm sure there's a bit more but I only skimmed the Building Regs.
Most of them are sort of obvious if you think it through, but some aren't at
all obvious.


--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On May 7, 9:38*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Even mine can dump into the back garden during lighting up if the wind is
wrong - and that's on a 7-8m chimney! I noticed because I was starting some
coal off with bits of old pallet (with some sort of blue stain/paint on)
and it did rather wiff out back. I was surprised... Fortunately the effect
seems to stop when the fire's up to temperature (hotter gasses I guess,
and/or more complete combustion).

Likewise, however even when warm.
It is one of the problems with prevailing wind blowing diagonally down
a hill - and historically used to be "not funny" when coal burning was
the norm with washing hung out :-)

CO alarm should be included with the appliance, lithium batteries,
with stamping on stove saying CO alarm to prevent "danger of death".
All it takes is something blocking the chimney which is always
conceivable by accident or malicious.

js.b1
wibbled on Friday 07 May 2010 21:47

On May 7, 9:38*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Even mine can dump into the back garden during lighting up if the wind is
wrong - and that's on a 7-8m chimney! I noticed because I was starting
some coal off with bits of old pallet (with some sort of blue stain/paint
on) and it did rather wiff out back. I was surprised... Fortunately the
effect seems to stop when the fire's up to temperature (hotter gasses I
guess, and/or more complete combustion).

Likewise, however even when warm.
It is one of the problems with prevailing wind blowing diagonally down
a hill - and historically used to be "not funny" when coal burning was
the norm with washing hung out :-)

CO alarm should be included with the appliance, lithium batteries,
with stamping on stove saying CO alarm to prevent "danger of death".
All it takes is something blocking the chimney which is always
conceivable by accident or malicious.

Agree. I plan to install an interlinked CO alarm when I get round to wiring
the lights up properly - our kitchen is bang opposite the bedrooms
(bungalow) so it would seem a wise move.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

or possibly he got home drunk
and burnt the wrong fuel in there
and left the stove doors open cos it looked nice
and it filled the summerhouse with smoke...

and there was no air inlet into the summerhouse?


fred wrote:
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-summerhouse-

wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even
if you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturers
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

On 7 May, 23:14, "george [dicegeorge]" wrote:
or possibly he got home drunk
and burnt the wrong fuel in there
and left the stove doors open cos it looked nice
and it filled the summerhouse with smoke...

and there was no air inlet into the summerhouse?

fred wrote:
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-dies-summerh....

wood-burning-stove-leaks-carbon-monoxide.html

A good reason to follow the regulations when installing a stove, even
if you
are not required to.

"The pair fitted the stove on January 31 following the manufacturer’s
instructions."

If true[1] it implies that the instructions were inadequate.

In the case of a gas appliances I have not seen a set of installation
instructions that did not spell out exactly what was required to make a
safe installation without reference to external standards.

[1] It is the daily wail so no guarantee of factual accuracy.

you mean "the regulations" don't cover any of that? strewth someone
should hang...

JimK

Flue...

That really is the heart of it. Typically the cost of the correct flue
equals or exceeds the cost of the stove.

Cutting corners either through ignorance or cost-avoidance is the big
mistake that can lead to poor performance, danger of fire or CO.

AIUI CO alarms are still not ideal devices - they need replacement
every few years (5-10), and can be temporarily or permanently damaged
by exposure to other gases and vapours (such as volatile solvents).

I've read that's why the requirement for CO detectors has been held
back from from the building regs for a while - they were waiting for
the technology to improve.

On Fri, 07 May 2010 21:38:21 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Thinking of a HETAS installed wood burner near me, reduced the
height
of the rear chimney, which when combined with a hill dumps
everything
in my yard

Even mine can dump into the back garden during lighting up if the wind
is wrong - and that's on a 7-8m chimney!

Our baxi burnall grate can smoke out of the under floor vent from the
ash box under some conditions. Still plenty of draw on the chimney
even when it's smoking out the vent must just be a positive relative
to outside room pressure.


--
Cheers
Dave.