dennis@home wrote:


Now prove wiki is wrong or admit you don't have a clue.

I'll give you a clue as to how wrong wiki is...

'Tornado F2'

"The Tornado F2 (sometimes written as F.2) was the initial version of"
"the Tornado ADV in Royal Air Force service, with 18 being built."

The tornado F1 (development version) was the first that the RAF got
their hands on and flew with Mk 102 engines. It went to Boscombe Down
for evaluation. The Tornado f1, f2 and f3 has always been known as a
tornado ADV (air defence variant).

"It first flew on March 5, 1984 and was powered by the same RB.199 Mk
103 engines used by the IDS Tornado, capable of four wing sweep settings,"

Things are getting a bit hazy here, after ten years out of the industry,
but I have the feeling that the F3 engines turned into extended reheat
and became RB. 199 Mk 104's for the F3's

As to the 4 wing sweep angles, this would have been in auto wing sweep
mode that could be override by a push of a button to produce any wing
sweep the pilot wanted.

"and fitted to carry only two under wing Sidewinder missiles."

Four was the normal load on the 3 development aircraft and I can't see
the RAF rejecting that figure. Up to eight could be carried, depending
on the stubs bolted to the under wing pylons.

"Serious problems were discovered with the Foxhunter radar, which meant
that the aircraft were delivered with concrete and lead ballast
installed in the nose as an interim measure until they could be fitted
with the radar sets."

The foxhunter radar was late coming into service, but the ballast that
replaced it certainly wasn't made of lead, or concrete. It was made of a
disc of steel that weighed the same as the radar. To give you an idea of
how heavy it was, the aircraft would move about an inch either way as to
if it had the radar fitted, or not.


I'm getting sick and tired of posting this as a measure of how wrong
wiki is.

There is more, but I think this will suffice.

Dave

dennis@home wrote:

You had nothing to do with the stealth fighter design that is obvious.

If you say so. I must have wasted 10 years working on it. By the way, I
never said I was a designer, I just spent my time implimentng it and
understanding it. You have to understand the concept to work on it, that
is very important in hands on development.

Dave

dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it is
different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...

I'm getting sick and tired of posting this as a measure of how wrong wiki
is.

And the cites on the F117 article are all wrong?

"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it is
different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

dennis@home wrote:

Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it
is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

First TNP lets Dennis off the hook by answering the question and now
Dennis has adopted his usual obfuscation mode to avoid displaying his
ignorance.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it
is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

First TNP lets Dennis off the hook by answering the question and now
Dennis has adopted his usual obfuscation mode to avoid displaying his
ignorance.

What ignorance?
Its obvious that the vertical surfaces are what get you out of a flat spin,
if they aren't good enough then you can have a parachute fitted. I know they
were tried on some planes but I don't know of any planes which have them in
service.

The B2 doesn't have a vertical stabiliser BTW, I know how the function is
performed but maybe you want to tell us how?

Now what about spins on other axises?

dennis@home wrote:

Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as
it is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

First TNP lets Dennis off the hook by answering the question and now
Dennis has adopted his usual obfuscation mode to avoid displaying his
ignorance.

What ignorance?

Your stock in trade.

Its obvious that the vertical surfaces are what get you out of a flat
spin, if they aren't good enough then you can have a parachute fitted. I
know they were tried on some planes but I don't know of any planes which
have them in service.

The B2 doesn't have a vertical stabiliser BTW, I know how the function
is performed but maybe you want to tell us how?

Why? I don't claim any expert knowledge in aeronautics.

Now what about spins on other axises?

Do tell.

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...

I'm getting sick and tired of posting this as a measure of how wrong
wiki is.

And the cites on the F117 article are all wrong?

If you mean from wiki, then yes. These things are written by those that
come up against them, like the Tornado ADV. Probably someone that
services them and because of that, thinks they are an authority on that
type. Just before I took early retirement, BAe Systems took on a group
of ex RAF personnel who thought they knew the aircraft, until they came
up against the development team. They soon learned to keep their mouths
shut, unless it was to ask a question.

Years ago, when I was on the tools, I was asked to go into the office.
The survivability department had been tasked to identify part of a
Tornado that the RAF had crashed. As soon as I saw it, I took him to the
area that it had come from.

I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the wiki
article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as inaccurate
as the one about the Tornado F3.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra, Lightening,
Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series, Tornado
production that came into development area, Tornado ADV F1's, Tornado
F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the number of the one that carried the 3
infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot probe,
to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is fitted with
an anti spin chute.

Dave

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it
is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

No!

Dave

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:12:54 +0000, Dave wrote:

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot probe,
to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is fitted with
an anti spin chute.


Actual hands-on experience and in-depth knowledge count for nothing in the
face of blind stupidity. :-)



--
The Wanderer

I may be omniscient, but don't expect me to know everything.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it
is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

First TNP lets Dennis off the hook by answering the question and now
Dennis has adopted his usual obfuscation mode to avoid displaying his
ignorance.

What ignorance?

Your stock in trade.

Its obvious that the vertical surfaces are what get you out of a flat
spin, if they aren't good enough then you can have a parachute fitted. I
know they were tried on some planes but I don't know of any planes which
have them in service.

The B2 doesn't have a vertical stabiliser BTW, I know how the function is
performed but maybe you want to tell us how?

Why? I don't claim any expert knowledge in aeronautics.

Neither do I, just some physics.
Enough to understand how a plane flies and to ignore childish questions
about tails.

"Dave" wrote in message
...


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the wiki
article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as inaccurate as
the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling me I am
wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I have made no
comments about the stability or otherwise of any other aircraft but I know
the F117 is unstable because of its shape.


I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra, Lightening,
Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series, Tornado production
that came into development area, Tornado ADV F1's, Tornado F2's Tornado
F3's and I forget the number of the one that carried the 3 infra-red
cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot probe, to
the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is fitted with an
anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?

"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as it
is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

No!

I have a pilot sitting next to me watch die hard 3 ATM, do you think its
worth asking him?

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the wiki
article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as
inaccurate as the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling me I
am wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I have made no
comments about the stability or otherwise of any other aircraft but I
know the F117 is unstable because of its shape.

You have thread drift enabled, I never said that.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra, Lightening,
Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series, Tornado
production that came into development area, Tornado ADV F1's, Tornado
F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the number of the one that carried the
3 infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot
probe, to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is
fitted with an anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?

No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons. The
chute was there as a last gasp get you home.

Dave

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Oh I thought you actually were interested in teh answer. Silly me!

If he had wanted an answer he would have said what sort of spin as
it is different for each type.

Describe how many types of spin there are.

Are you claiming there is only one?

No!

I have a pilot sitting next to me watch die hard 3 ATM, do you think its
worth asking him?

Why are you irritating him by tapping on the computer while he is trying
to watch a film? He will know a hell of a lot more than you though. Ask him.

Dave

Dave

Dave

On 23/02/2010 18:31, Dave wrote:
dennis@home wrote:

I have a pilot sitting next to me watch die hard 3 ATM, do you think
its worth asking him?

Why are you irritating him by tapping on the computer while he is trying
to watch a film? He will know a hell of a lot more than you though. Ask
him.

Dave

Dave

Dave

Don't you mean Dive! Dive Dive! ???

--
Tim

"That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament
ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of
Parliament"

Bill of Rights 1689

Dave wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the
wiki article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as
inaccurate as the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling me
I am wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I have made
no comments about the stability or otherwise of any other aircraft but
I know the F117 is unstable because of its shape.

You have thread drift enabled, I never said that.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra,
Lightening, Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series,
Tornado production that came into development area, Tornado ADV F1's,
Tornado F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the number of the one that
carried the 3 infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot
probe, to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is
fitted with an anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?

No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons. The
chute was there as a last gasp get you home.

Apart for a backup system for that.

Dave

The Wanderer wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:12:54 +0000, Dave wrote:

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot probe,
to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is fitted with
an anti spin chute.


Actual hands-on experience and in-depth knowledge count for nothing in the
face of blind stupidity. :-)

Couldn't reply earlier for laughing. :-)

Dave

In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
. ..


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the
wiki article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as
inaccurate as the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling
me I am wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I have
made no comments about the stability or otherwise of any other
aircraft but I know the F117 is unstable because of its shape.
You have thread drift enabled, I never said that.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra,
Lightening, Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series,
Tornado production that came into development area, Tornado ADV
F1's, Tornado F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the number of the one
that carried the 3 infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot
probe, to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is
with an anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.

Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar


--
geoff

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the
wiki article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as
inaccurate as the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling
me I am wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I
have made no comments about the stability or otherwise of any
other aircraft but I know the F117 is unstable because of its
shape.
You have thread drift enabled, I never said that.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra,
Lightening, Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre
series, Tornado production that came into development area,
Tornado ADV F1's, Tornado F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the
number of the one that carried the 3 infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot
probe, to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is
with an anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.

Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

"Dave" wrote in message
...
The Wanderer wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:12:54 +0000, Dave wrote:

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot probe,
to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is fitted with
an anti spin chute.


Actual hands-on experience and in-depth knowledge count for nothing in
the
face of blind stupidity. :-)

Couldn't reply earlier for laughing. :-)

You can have as much experience as you like, but you are still wrong.
Especially about having the experience with f117s.

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...


I don't know the F 117, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the
wiki article, but experience tends to make me think that it is as
inaccurate as the one about the Tornado F3.

But you are commenting about the F117, specifically you are telling
me I am wrong when I stated that its shape makes it unstable. I
have made no comments about the stability or otherwise of any other
aircraft but I know the F117 is unstable because of its shape.
You have thread drift enabled, I never said that.

I spent 26 years working around aircraft such as Canberra,
Lightening, Jaguar, Victor, Tornado prototypes, Tornado pre series,
Tornado production that came into development area, Tornado ADV
F1's, Tornado F2's Tornado F3's and I forget the number of the one
that carried the 3 infra-red cameras.

As far as Tornado goes, I know it from the tip of the main pitot
probe, to the rear tip of the fin. And even further aft, if it is
with an anti spin chute.

Do they fit the chute to Tornados in service then?
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.

Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

Not quite :-)
It was a rocket fuelled engine that produced hydraulic pressure to allow
the pilot to pull out of a spin when the flame in the engine had been
blown out.

Dave

Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on the
types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on the
types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Dave

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on
the types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Why does that not surprise me

|Dennis and spin, eh ?

--
geoff

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on the
types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Shouldn't that be 'too' late?

Dave

geoff wrote:
In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on
the types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Why does that not surprise me

|Dennis and spin, eh ?

Oh, please don't. :-)

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on the
types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Shouldn't that be 'too' late?

Probably, I will ask my spell chucker later.

Dave

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...
Clot wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave wrote:
No the Tornado pulls itself out of a spin by using it's tailerons.
The chute was there as a last gasp get you home.
Apart for a backup system for that.

The Tow bar

With dennis driving?

That reminds me, I'm still waiting for Dennis to get back to me on the
types of spin his pilot friend at his side tells him about.

Well you left it to late, he went home, maybe next time.

Out to lunch.

No one home.

Talking about himself in the third party
DYOC


Dave