If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled because
the accelerator may stick wide open.
Originally it was claimed that the floormat got in the way.
I don't believe that for a moment.
Then an accelerator part that swelled up was replaced. Now the
replacement is faulty.

Now Toyota say "The newly identified problem is caused by a mechanism
that controls the accelerator pedal's return to the idle position
after being pressed to the floor". Would that be a spring?

Since ordinary mechanics don't seem to have a clue about mechanical
things like this, it's obviously a job for d-i-y people to look at.
Not to fix, just to look at and see what the problem is.

I don't have a Toyota. Can people look at their Toyotas and tell us
what the problem is? Perhaps post photos of the faulty part.

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that. And these features are a great advance in
reliability and safety, exactly why?

On Jan 27, 1:22*pm, Matty F wrote:
If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

MBQ

On 27/01/2010 13:22, Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that.

Turning the ignition off potentially locks the steering column lock and
prevents you from steering. Not such a good plan if you're actually
moving when your throttle sticks open.

On Jan 28, 2:27 am, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

and Canada and Europe. If it's not a problem in the UK perhaps Toyota
UK can tell Toyota Japan their secret solution to the problem.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines

Toyota Motor Corp.'s (TM) Canadaian operations said Wednesday it is
instructing dealers to suspend Canadian sales of its eight vehicles
involved in a recall for sticking accelerator pedals, a day after it
halted those vehicles' sales in the U.S. in an unprecedented move.
....
Toyota will expand its recall of vehicles with defective gas pedals to
Europe, a person close to the matter said Monday.

On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned,

thought most modern cars have electronic rev limiters these days?

then switch it off and coast to a halt....what's the alternative?

JimK

JimK gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned,

thought most modern cars have electronic rev limiters these days?

And for the last twenty-odd years.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:53:32 -0800, Matty F wrote:

On Jan 28, 2:27 am, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

and Canada and Europe. If it's not a problem in the UK perhaps Toyota
UK can tell Toyota Japan their secret solution to the problem.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines

Hmm, I don't get the article here, just the headline - not sure if that's
a Firefox issue, or a need to subscribe to WSJ before I can see the
content (I did have a WSJ subscription, but no longer).

Which Toyotas does it affect? I doubt it's out late-90s US one somehow,
but I can always look at the mechanism if it's relevant. From memory it's
a couple of sliding plates and at least one spring at the "business end"
(presumably because there are times when the ECU takes over despite what
the manual cable-driven setup might be doing)

By "pressed to the floor" do they mean completely floored, or do they
really mean "pressed toward the floor" (i.e. through the normal range of
movement)?

cheers

Jules

On Jan 27, 1:22*pm, Matty F wrote:
If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being
recalled because the accelerator may stick wide open.
Now Toyota say "The newly identified problem is caused by a
mechanism that controls the accelerator pedal's return to the
idle position after being pressed to the floor". Would that be a spring?

Probably.

Some cars:
- The accelerator pedal operates a cable linkage to a butterfly valve
inside the Throttle Body. The Throttle Body sits between the engine
Intake Manifold (plastic/aluminium) and Airflow Meter (box after
airfilter).
- When you floor the accelerator the cable pulls the throttle body
butterfly valve fully open (butterfly means it folds in half backwards
so as not to constrict airflow), this Wide Open Throttle (WOT)
condition is detected by various means - usually a Throttle Position
Sensor also mounted on the throttle body and the airflow meter which
measures airflow mass (usually) or volume (dated) or pressure (very
dated). Toyota even as late as early 1990 probably used Mass Airflow
sensing (MAF).
- It is unlikely the Throttle Body spring is insufficient, they are
usually brutally strong.
- It is more likely the accelerator pedal assembly is suffering
stiction or an inadequate/deteriorating spring.

Other cars:
- Linkage between the accelerator pedal and engine is by electronic
means only.
- The key benefit of this is engine responsiveness and better feedback
control - throttle input signal itself is dampened avoiding hysterisis/
surge, with mechanical linkage the ECU tends to use other sensors to
treat the effect of throttle hysterisis/surge which whilst reasonably
effective with mass airflow suffer too much lag with volume airflow.
- Without a throttle body linkage (& spring) the accelerator pedal
spring must act alone.

So either stiction or spring - or pedal assembly.
I refer to pedal assembly because most accelerator pedals are non-
linear in their action - a small initial pedal movement results in
rapid RPM change to create a perception of a larger engine, whereas
further larger RPM change requires larger pedal movement.

Another factor may be cruise control.
- With mechanical throttle linkage a cruise control system typically
uses a vacuum canister, solenoid & ECU to pull on the pedal to
maintain a particular RPM. The accelerator pedal can be seen to move
up and down accordingly.
- With electronic throttle the control system may be the same (just
operating on the throttle body) or electronic.

So fixing a spring at the pedal may not necesarily solve the problem.
A few cars have been accused on "unattended acceleration" (USA side),
that might as much be "unattended service schedules".


Such problems are more an issue for cars with automatic transmissions,
they will just keep shifting under WOT.
The solution like a manual transmission is to shift the into Neutral.
The engine will redline however the RPM limiter will prevent immediate
mechanical damage.
The car coasts to a stop with power steering & brakes still operating
normally.
The engine is then turned off via the ignition switch.

Turning the ignition off whilst the vehicle is in motion should never
be done - if in gear it will result in strong deceleration acting on
the front wheels only, diminishing braking assistance, lost ABS,
diminishing power steering and worst of all triggering the steering
lock. If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own
engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with handbrake
applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will
continue burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an
unrelated issue, just worth mentioning :-)

"js.b1" wrote in message news:277964b2-7222-4560-a087-
Umm, would the deceleration necessarily be any stonger than normal "lift
off" deceleration. In most (?all) cars these days fuel is cut off on the
overrun until rpm drops to idling speed.

Also, would brake assistance necessarily be lost? Plenty of vacuum for the
servo as long as the car is in gear. I dare say there would be no ABS
admittedly. Given the electronics involved in modern PAS I dare say you're
right about that assisstance going.

Lastly, I've never had a car where *just* turning the ignition off has
locked the steering. It's taken a further manoeuvre (like turning the key a
bit further or removing the key) to engage the steering lock.

I'm not disagreeing with your general point of the inadvisability of turn
off the ignition whilst in motion but I think some of your points are wrong.

Tim

On 27 Jan, 15:50, "Tim Downie"
wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message news:277964b2-7222-4560-a087-

Quote:

Turning the ignition off whilst the vehicle is in motion should never be done - if in gear it will result in strong deceleration acting on the front wheels only, diminishing braking assistance, lost ABS, diminishing power steering and worst of all triggering the steering lock. If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with handbrake applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will continue burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an unrelated issue, just worth mentioning :-)

Umm, would the deceleration necessarily be any stonger than normal "lift
off" deceleration. *In most (?all) cars these days fuel is cut off on the
overrun until rpm drops to idling speed.

Also, would brake assistance necessarily be lost? *Plenty of vacuum for the
servo as long as the car is in gear. *I dare say there would be no ABS
admittedly. *Given the electronics involved in modern PAS I dare say you're
right about that assisstance going.

Lastly, I've never had a car where *just* turning the ignition off has
locked the steering. *It's taken a further manoeuvre (like turning the key a
bit further or removing the key) to engage the steering lock.

My Renault Scenic has a stop/start button. as soon as the button is
pressed to stop, there's a click (presumably a relay ?) and the
steering lock is *armed*. The slightest twitch of the wheel after that
locks it.


I'm not disagreeing with your general point of the inadvisability of turn
off the ignition whilst in motion but I think some of your points are wrong.

Tim

"Jethro" wrote in message
news:61f856ed-deec-4bc0-bd33-
On the face of it it sounds highly dangerous. What's to stop a bored child
(or adult) pressing it whilst you're driving? Admitedly I don't know where
the switch is sited but I'm sure some bored driver must have pressed it to
see what happens.

My guess is that it won't activate the lock until the vehicle is stationary
but that's just a guess.

Tim

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled because
the accelerator may stick wide open.

You wouldn't notice on a Prius.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that.

Turning the ignition off potentially locks the steering column lock and
prevents you from steering. Not such a good plan if you're actually
moving when your throttle sticks open.

On *every* car I've ever owned with a steering lock - and that's plenty -
you have to *remove* the key before the lock engages. Not just turn off.

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Jan 28, 2:27 am, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

and Canada and Europe. If it's not a problem in the UK perhaps Toyota
UK can tell Toyota Japan their secret solution to the problem.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines

Toyota Motor Corp.'s (TM) Canadaian operations said Wednesday it is
instructing dealers to suspend Canadian sales of its eight vehicles
involved in a recall for sticking accelerator pedals, a day after it
halted those vehicles' sales in the U.S. in an unprecedented move.
...
Toyota will expand its recall of vehicles with defective gas pedals to
Europe, a person close to the matter said Monday.

ManatB&Q is quite possibly correct in saying that UK cars are not involved.
Toyotas are Japanese and as such designed and built as right hand drive
cars, which means that they are ready for the UK, whereas those for USA,
Canada and presumably the rest of Europe have to be modified to left hand
drive. This begs the question whether the fault is in those modifications.
--
Tinkerer

Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:27 am, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

and Canada and Europe. If it's not a problem in the UK perhaps Toyota
UK can tell Toyota Japan their secret solution to the problem.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines

Toyota Motor Corp.'s (TM) Canadaian operations said Wednesday it is
instructing dealers to suspend Canadian sales of its eight vehicles
involved in a recall for sticking accelerator pedals, a day after it
halted those vehicles' sales in the U.S. in an unprecedented move.
...
Toyota will expand its recall of vehicles with defective gas pedals to
Europe, a person close to the matter said Monday.

Of course UK cars have the pedal on the same side as Jap ones so may not
be effected. But because there's a US recall, doesn't mean it will always
apply elsewhere.

I had a front suspension leg collapse on my BMW. It's made of ally and
the plate the spring bears on sheared off. Causing that side to sink - but
more to the point cut through the wall of the tyre causing it to explode.
Recall for this in the US and strengthening parts fitted. And the strut
replaced if any cracks evident. BMW UK said it had never happened in the
UK so not needed. A year later the other side did the same...

--
*Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
On *every* car I've ever owned with a steering lock - and that's plenty
- you have to *remove* the key before the lock engages. Not just turn
off.

I remember a contractor saying he was late because his Sherpa van's
engine had died in the older, single carriageway, wiggly Mersey tunnel.
He had switched the ignition off to restart the engine and the steering
had locked.

His actual excuse was that he had been buying a different vehicle.

It may just have been an excuse, of course.
--
Bill

On 27/01/2010 17:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Dave wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that.

Turning the ignition off potentially locks the steering column lock and
prevents you from steering. Not such a good plan if you're actually
moving when your throttle sticks open.

On *every* car I've ever owned with a steering lock - and that's plenty -
you have to *remove* the key before the lock engages. Not just turn off.


Well, I'd bet *your* life on it, but I wouldn't bet mine. ;-)

On 27/01/2010 17:36, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?



Because on a vehicle without an electronic/mechanical governer to limit
the maximum rpm to just below the red-line, holding the throttle open
whilst the car is not in gear will just cause the engine rpm to rise
rapidly to the maximum possible and in pretty short order, something
would break.

On Jan 27, 3:50 pm, "Tim Downie"
wrote:
Umm, would the deceleration necessarily be any stonger than normal "lift
off" deceleration. In most (?all) cars these days fuel is cut off on the
overrun until rpm drops to idling speed.

No it would not, but I emphasise it should it occur on a motorway.
Losing engine power in the outside lane of a densely packed motorway
can make negotiation to the inside lane very difficult. Remember you
can no longer accelerate - yet must negotiate your way through lanes
which may now be undertaking, including the HGV lane whose response
time is far slower.
I recall a driving simulator where people instinctly still hit the
accelerator pedal as a conditioned response to loss of engine power
despite it obviously not working.


Also, would brake assistance necessarily be lost?

Cars with a pressurised accumulator would be unchanged (aka "brake
bomb"), cars with vacuum booster would be unchanged whilst the engine
remains in gear but will suffer significant reduction after the first
brake application when in neutral. Thus a driver shifting to neutral
to extend deceleration time by freewheelling would quickly find they
must press the brake pedal substantially harder after the first and
successive application.

I suspect the majority of drivers would shift to neutral to extend the
deceleration time to give themselves more time to negotiate a safe
lane change across to the hard shoulder. In so doing they gain time,
but add to the cognitive load of unfamiliar vehicle control - whilst
negotiating a lane change through now undertaking traffic.

USA adds automatic gearboxes to the mix (kickdown increasing
acceleration, reducing reaction time). The greatest risk is probably
in a densely packed town near pedestrian areas.


A reality check is to visit the NHTSA.
I have not checked the recall, but "unintended acceleration" due to
design (stuck accelerator pedal or cruise control resume) has often
been alleged but usually unprovable re vehicle crashed, inability to
replicate failure mode in a lab and a million identical vehicles
clocking up miles daily without incident. Human error and creative
Defence Counsel more often than not.
So I would not be surprised to find the recall says "may potentially"
rather than "has been found to cause".

Mechanical throttle linkage designs had a failsafe whereby two
springs, throttle body & accelerator pedal, could return the engine to
idle. Electronic may only have one spring.


Lastly, I've never had a car where *just* turning the ignition off has
locked the steering. It's taken a further manoeuvre (like turning the key a
bit further or removing the key) to engage the steering lock.

Never tried, I suspect that is true as long as the key remain in the
ignition, although the key is not latched (retained). Despite not
being latched I suspect withdrawal of the key would need to be
complete for steering lock engagement to occur, rather unlikely
someone is going to be fumbling to that extent.


I'm not disagreeing with your general point of the inadvisability of turn
off the ignition whilst in motion but I think some of your points are wrong.

Far from inadvisable, it is essential if the car is stuck WOT.

My comment re steering rack is invalid, keys remain in the ignition.
My comment re loss of braking assist if shifted to neutral on some
vehicles is not.

Thinking further, I have a suspicion most people would not switch the
engine off.
I think they would just declutch letting the engine hit the rev
limiter and steer across the lanes - perhaps bringing the clutch up to
accelerate again as necessary. It comes down to what environment the
car is in - coming out of a junction in a crowded town centre with
pedestrians around or cruising down a motorway. My suspicion is people
will do the most *automatic* thing to remove the unintended
acceleration, that is declutch, rather than turn the engine off. They
may brake first, but quickly declutch probably as they feel (or smell)
brakes fading.

They will react automatically by declutching, they will think whether
to turn the engine off.

Matty F wrote:
If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled because
the accelerator may stick wide open.
Originally it was claimed that the floormat got in the way.
I don't believe that for a moment.

The US reportage seems to point fairly clearly at non-OEM floormats jamming
the pedal, and driver error. Could be survived by turning the engine off
or shifting to neutral (rev limiter will usually protect modern engine, but
if it blows up then what the hell... ) or even just braking hard.

There's a long history of these panics in the USA - started with Audi back
in the 90's, when a fake 'unintended acceleration' problem was hyped by the
media
(http://www.automobile.com/audi-inves...leration.html).
Same rumour has since been directed at many foreign car makes, Honda, Lexus,
BMW etc. Seems quite possible that it's a combination of poor driver
control and targeted dissing of imports.

Dave Osborne wrote:
On 27/01/2010 17:36, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?



Because on a vehicle without an electronic/mechanical governer to limit
the maximum rpm to just below the red-line, holding the throttle open
whilst the car is not in gear will just cause the engine rpm to rise
rapidly to the maximum possible and in pretty short order, something
would break.

Surely most modern engines have electronic management systems which would
cut in to control over-revving?

Dave Osborne wrote:

Because on a vehicle without an electronic/mechanical governer to limit
the maximum rpm to just below the red-line, holding the throttle open
whilst the car is not in gear will just cause the engine rpm to rise
rapidly to the maximum possible and in pretty short order, something
would break.

I think you'll find a rev limiter is built into the ECU of anything with
electronic injection. Which is almost all cars after cats were
introduced ca. 1993.

The diesels-burning-their-own oil thing is different - turning them off,
and killing the fuel, doesn't help; neither does the ECU killing the
fuel when it hits the rev limit. That's not what's burning.

My Toyota - far older than the recall - has on the key:

Insert.
Turn 1 click: Lock off.
Next click: Accessories on (radio etc)
Next click: Ignition on.
Last click: Start.

One click back from run kills the spark and the fuel injectors but does
nothing else.

Andy

"Dave Osborne" wrote in message
...
On 27/01/2010 17:36, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

Because on a vehicle without an electronic/mechanical governer to limit
the maximum rpm to just below the red-line, holding the throttle open
whilst the car is not in gear will just cause the engine rpm to rise
rapidly to the maximum possible and in pretty short order, something would
break.

Which is how many cars these days?

On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

I've owned around 15 cars dating from 1950, mostly British. I'm not
aware if any of them had a rev limiter - the older ones certainly
didn't. Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

I have heard of a case where a lady lifted the bonnet of her Jaguar
while the engine was running, and the bonnet catch caught hold of the
accelerator mechanism and the engine over revved and blew up.

In another case someone was using cruise control in his Jaguar and
moved into neutral, and the engine over-revved and wrecked itself. So
Jaguar altered the design to turn cruise control off in that case. Yes
I realise these happened a long time ago but there are still plenty of
old cars on the road out here in the colonies!

On Jan 28, 6:14 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that.
Turning the ignition off potentially locks the steering column lock and
prevents you from steering. Not such a good plan if you're actually
moving when your throttle sticks open.

On *every* car I've ever owned with a steering lock - and that's plenty -
you have to *remove* the key before the lock engages. Not just turn off.

I remember that in the early days of steering locks there were a
number of accidents, so manufacters were *required* to change the
locks so the steering wouldn't lock until the key was removed.
In any case when the accelerator is stuck while you are on the
motorway doing 100 miles an hour, you don't need to turn the wheel
much.

On 27 Jan, 20:58, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-

blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.



Have you ever witnessed this phenomenon? (Hint: the correct answer is,
"No, I haven't.")

Tim Downie wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message news:277964b2-7222-4560-a087-

Quote:

Turning the ignition off whilst the vehicle is in motion should never be done - if in gear it will result in strong deceleration acting on the front wheels only, diminishing braking assistance, lost ABS, diminishing power steering and worst of all triggering the steering lock.

hard to get with EFI.

Only old mechanical injectors or a split fuel hose pumping fuel into the
intake somehow does that. 99% of cars have electric fuel pumps and
injecors. Switch them off.



Umm, would the deceleration necessarily be any stonger than normal "lift
off" deceleration. In most (?all) cars these days fuel is cut off on the
overrun until rpm drops to idling speed.

No.

Also, would brake assistance necessarily be lost? Plenty of vacuum for the
servo as long as the car is in gear. I dare say there would be no ABS
admittedly. Given the electronics involved in modern PAS I dare say you're
right about that assisstance going.


servio assistance gets lost pretty quickly once that engine is stopped
and you are in neutral also steering assistance. NOT nice.

Lastly, I've never had a car where *just* turning the ignition off has
locked the steering. It's taken a further manoeuvre (like turning the key a
bit further or removing the key) to engage the steering lock.

I'm not disagreeing with your general point of the inadvisability of turn
off the ignition whilst in motion but I think some of your points are wrong.


I think all of them are wrong, frankly.
Tim

"Tinkerer" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

ManatB&Q is quite possibly correct in saying that UK cars are not
involved. Toyotas are Japanese and as such designed and built as right
hand drive cars, which means that they are ready for the UK, whereas
those for USA, Canada and presumably the rest of Europe have to be
modified to left hand drive. This begs the question whether the fault
is in those modifications.

Toyotas in the US bear very little resemblance to Toyotas we see - even,
in many cases, where the badge is the same.

But the way in which this covers virtually every model suggests there's
something more fundamental, quite possibly in the software or some other
shared component. Which we may very well see in Toyotas here.

Dave Osborne wrote:
On 27/01/2010 17:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Dave wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
It seems they don't even have an ignition switch that can be turned
off, or if the engine can be turned off, many owners don't actually
know how to do that.

Turning the ignition off potentially locks the steering column lock and
prevents you from steering. Not such a good plan if you're actually
moving when your throttle sticks open.

On *every* car I've ever owned with a steering lock - and that's plenty -
you have to *remove* the key before the lock engages. Not just turn off.


Well, I'd bet *your* life on it, but I wouldn't bet mine. ;-)

I think all of mine are like that as well

Or at least the lock frees up at position 1 on the key, 2 is run, 3 is
start, 0 is off/lock.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?


over revving if no rev limiter fitted.

Still thats better than being dead.

Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
Why would that wreck the engine?

I've owned around 15 cars dating from 1950, mostly British. I'm not
aware if any of them had a rev limiter - the older ones certainly
didn't. Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

I have heard of a case where a lady lifted the bonnet of her Jaguar
while the engine was running, and the bonnet catch caught hold of the
accelerator mechanism and the engine over revved and blew up.

In another case someone was using cruise control in his Jaguar and
moved into neutral, and the engine over-revved and wrecked itself. So
Jaguar altered the design to turn cruise control off in that case. Yes
I realise these happened a long time ago but there are still plenty of
old cars on the road out here in the colonies!
Jags (since about the XJS 3.6) are autos, (not sure about the rebadged
fords tho)so rather then rev limiters, they simply change up a gear. I
am not sure what hapopens if you hold the box down and go for the rev
limit. At that price, I wasn't going to try..

Mr Fuxit wrote:
On 27 Jan, 20:58, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-

blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.
Why would that wreck the engine?
Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.



Have you ever witnessed this phenomenon? (Hint: the correct answer is,
"No, I haven't.")

Umm. here and there on race tracks, yes..

In message
,
Matty F writes
If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled because
the accelerator may stick wide open.
Originally it was claimed that the floormat got in the way.
I don't believe that for a moment.
Then an accelerator part that swelled up was replaced. Now the
replacement is faulty.


So ...

given a long enough stretch and a following wind, Drivels Prius could
almost get up to 30 mph




--
geoff

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:23:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim Downie wrote:
"js.b1" wrote in message news:277964b2-7222-4560-a087-
[quote]
Turning the ignition off whilst the vehicle is in motion should never
be done - if in gear it will result in strong deceleration acting on
the front wheels only, diminishing braking assistance, lost ABS,
diminishing power steering and worst of all triggering the steering
lock.

Obviously you have never had a car engine stop on you while you were
driving along. What a load of tosh. And of course if it isn't an auto,
take it out of gear as soon as you can if you want to coast.

Yes, had it happen to me once while on the wrong side of 80 during an
overtake - at that kind of speed the lack of PAS wasn't a problem, and
the deceleration wasn't anything out of the ordinary, just surprising
(couldn't hear the engine anyway with the top down, so it was a quick
glance at the rev counter which showed that something* had gone amiss). I
stomped on the clutch and braked it to the nearside verge. Braking
performance was quickly impared of course, but not dangerously so.

* broken power connector to the ignition coil, as it turned out.

cheers

Jules

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own
engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with handbrake
applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will
continue burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an
unrelated issue, just worth mentioning :-)[/quote]

hard to get with EFI.

Only old mechanical injectors or a split fuel hose pumping fuel into the
intake somehow does that. 99% of cars have electric fuel pumps and
injecors. Switch them off.

It's not fuel which does it, it's engine oil - as it says in the bit you
quoted. Stopping the supply of diesel doesn't help.

There are two ways this normally happens - oil seals in turbo and crank case
breather.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own
engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with handbrake
applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will continue
burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an unrelated
issue, just worth mentioning :-)[/quote]

hard to get with EFI.

Only old mechanical injectors or a split fuel hose pumping fuel into the
intake somehow does that. 99% of cars have electric fuel pumps and
injecors. Switch them off.

Or shagged turbo seals. It's more common than you'd think.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:23:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own
engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with
handbrake
applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will
continue burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an
unrelated issue, just worth mentioning :-)[/quote]

hard to get with EFI.

Only old mechanical injectors or a split fuel hose pumping fuel into the
intake somehow does that. 99% of cars have electric fuel pumps and
injecors. Switch them off.

Diesel. Diesels will quite happily run on their own lubricating oil
if enough of it can get into the combustion chambers. Either down
worn valve guides, past the rings or from a failed bearing in a
turbo. No amount of switching off, rev limiter or ECU control is
going to stop it, the "fuel" is not under any control. The only way
stop it is to block the air intake or stall it. Blocking the air
intake is not likely to be an option on a modern car so that only
leaves stalling.

I don't think you'd get the brakes of a modern car to fade trying to
stall a lube oil burning diesel. I have had brakes fade on me but
that was near the bottom of a very spirited descent of 1000' over a
few miles with lots of bends and using the brakes rather than the
engine.

servio assistance gets lost pretty quickly once that engine is stopped
and you are in neutral also steering assistance. NOT nice.

My experience of brake servo is you get one normal application with
no engine, a very half hearted second application, then sod all
assistance and you'll be pushing the pedal with as much force as you
can muster to get any brake at all.

Steering servo dies with the engine. That's arguably worse than the
loss of brakes as you'll really have to heave the steering wheel to
get any movement.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
I've owned around 15 cars dating from 1950, mostly British. I'm not
aware if any of them had a rev limiter - the older ones certainly
didn't. Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

Depends. Valve float is the first thing to happen on a pushrod engine -
the springs just can't keep up. So the valves stay open and the engine
misfires limiting the revs. Some designs might break a conrod or crank -
but not all.

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:35:19 +0000, geoff wrote:
So ...

given a long enough stretch and a following wind, Drivels Prius could
almost get up to 30 mph

Following wind countered by the wind coming from his gob, though. If
there's no wind, he just goes backwards.