On Jan 27, 5:58*pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-

blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

I've owned around 15 cars dating from 1950, mostly British. I'm not
aware if any of them had a rev limiter - the older ones certainly
didn't. Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

I have heard of a case where a lady lifted the bonnet of her Jaguar
while the engine was running, and the bonnet catch caught hold of the
accelerator mechanism and the engine over revved and blew up.

In another case someone was using cruise control in his Jaguar and
moved into neutral, and the engine over-revved and wrecked itself. So
Jaguar altered the design to turn cruise control off in that case. Yes
I realise these happened a long time ago but there are still plenty of
old cars on the road out here in the colonies!

Re-rev limiters. Frequently heard Toyotas, typically Land Cruisers, at
full blast in a low gear hitting their rev limiters while being
driven in the desert etc. in the Gulf States.
It often seemed like a normal way of driving (and showing off) there!
Didn't seem to hurt the vehicles at all!

On Jan 28, 10:30 am, Mr Fuxit wrote:
On 27 Jan, 20:58, Matty F wrote:

On Jan 28, 6:36 am, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-

blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
Matty F wrote:
The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

Have you ever witnessed this phenomenon? (Hint: the correct answer is,
"No, I haven't.")

No I haven't, but I have heard of others who have. I've had five
Jaguars and Daimlers and I like to look after them. However there are
plenty of people saying that over revving can cause the valves to
bounce and touch the pistons, and that can cause severe damage.
Different makes of engine have different clearances between the valves
and pistons.

On Jan 28, 9:37 am, "Clive George" wrote:
"Dave Osborne" wrote in message

...

On 27/01/2010 17:36, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Matty F wrote:

The official advice if the problem occurs is to shift into neutral.
That would immediately wreck the engine of every car that I have ever
owned, so clearly cars have changed a lot in recent years.

Why would that wreck the engine?

Because on a vehicle without an electronic/mechanical governer to limit
the maximum rpm to just below the red-line, holding the throttle open
whilst the car is not in gear will just cause the engine rpm to rise
rapidly to the maximum possible and in pretty short order, something would
break.

Which is how many cars these days?

Almost every car I see at work.
However I do work in an automobile museum

On Jan 28, 3:31 am, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:53:32 -0800, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:27 am, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:22 pm, Matty F wrote:

If you didn't know already, many Toyotas are being recalled

In the US.

and Canada and Europe. If it's not a problem in the UK perhaps Toyota
UK can tell Toyota Japan their secret solution to the problem.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...l?mod=WSJ_late....

Hmm, I don't get the article here, just the headline - not sure if that's
a Firefox issue, or a need to subscribe to WSJ before I can see the
content (I did have a WSJ subscription, but no longer).

Which Toyotas does it affect? I doubt it's out late-90s US one somehow,
but I can always look at the mechanism if it's relevant. From memory it's
a couple of sliding plates and at least one spring at the "business end"
(presumably because there are times when the ECU takes over despite what
the manual cable-driven setup might be doing)

By "pressed to the floor" do they mean completely floored, or do they
really mean "pressed toward the floor" (i.e. through the normal range of
movement)?

There seem to be a number of different faults over the years - wear,
computer, cable faults.
US made parts probably, so nothing to worry UK and NZ owners

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/201..._vehicles.html

The recall affects the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the
2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2010
Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia. Of these,
the Avalon, Camry and Tundra models - encompassing about 1.7 million
vehicles - also were included in the previous gas pedal recall. Their
accelerator pedals could be at risk both of becoming trapped under
floor mats and becoming stuck due to mechanical problems.


http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Aut...335/story.html

According to Toyota, cars with problematic accelerator assemblies will
have gas pedals that are slower to return or feel rough while
depressing. The problem may be compounded when the vehicle has been
parked for long periods of time in hot temperatures.

The company said the problem is only found in accelerator assemblies
manufactured by CTS Corp., a parts maker based in Elkhart, Indiana.
Similar parts manufactured by Japan’s Denso Corp., a competitor to CTS
Corp., are not believed to be defective.

Some experts, including Safety Research & Strategies’ Kane, believe
the Toyota issue is indicative of a larger problem that is looming in
the automotive industry. Many vehicles, including Toyota and Lexus
brand cars, have given up on decades-old technology that uses a steel
cable to control acceleration and have moved to computer controlled
systems called drive-by-wire.

Kane said the systems are unsafe and that national regulators should
not be focusing on just Toyota. He urged an industry-wide
investigation into the technology.

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
No I haven't, but I have heard of others who have. I've had five
Jaguars and Daimlers and I like to look after them. However there are
plenty of people saying that over revving can cause the valves to
bounce and touch the pistons, and that can cause severe damage.
Different makes of engine have different clearances between the valves
and pistons.

Plenty may say that but I don't believe it. Only time valves hit pistons
is when the valve drive breaks altering the timing. Such 'interference'
engines are common these days - but as been said just about every car made
since about '90 has a engine speed limiter built into the management. And
plenty earlier ones too. On my old Rover V-8 with no speed limiter the
hydraulic tappets act as one - try and go above the maximum revs and they
just cease opening the valves. Of course if it's an auto this can't happen
in practice. But what I'm saying is if you selected neutral on full
throttle so the engine revved to max before switching off you'd be unlucky
to do any damage. If you left it running like that indefinitely of course
you would. But why would you?

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
Some experts, including Safety Research & Strategies’ Kane, believe
the Toyota issue is indicative of a larger problem that is looming in
the automotive industry. Many vehicles, including Toyota and Lexus
brand cars, have given up on decades-old technology that uses a steel
cable to control acceleration and have moved to computer controlled
systems called drive-by-wire.

Kane said the systems are unsafe and that national regulators should
not be focusing on just Toyota. He urged an industry-wide
investigation into the technology.

Sounds like someone with an axe to grind. Mechanical throttle linkages are
a crude way of doing things with modern engine management. Perhaps he
wants to go back to carbs and points too. But I'll bet doesn't want to pay
for the heavier fuel consumption of those older cars.
Nor are mechanical throttle linkages perfectly safe either. I well
remember flooring an E-Type Jag and the throttle sticking wide open. A 90
degree pivot on the rod linkage had gone over centre. That early example
had been fitted with an aftermarket steering lock which didn't lock the
steering when I switched off. After slowing the car on the brakes. It was
in second gear.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Jan 28, 10:24 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

But what I'm saying is if you selected neutral on full
throttle so the engine revved to max before switching off you'd be unlucky
to do any damage. If you left it running like that indefinitely of course
you would. But why would you?

OK, so maybe the engine revving at its maximum in neutral might not do
any damage. But instead I will simply turn the ignition off.
For 15 years I have owned two large cars that ran on CNG and petrol.
When the CNG ran out after about 120 km, the engine would stop and I
would switch to petrol, which took about 10 seconds.
In the meantime the power brakes and power steering didn't work, but
not a problem - they just needed a bit more effort to use.

Since a car engine might stop for many reasons, cars should still be
able to be driven without the engine running. Therefore people should
know what it's like to drive without power brakes and power steering,
so they should try it if they haven't already. It might save their
lives one day. I know of a lady who panicked because the brakes didn't
seem to be working when she rolled her car down her driveway. All she
had to do is push the pedal harder.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:23:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

If the vehicle is a runaway turbo diesel (dieselling on its own
engine oil) it must be brought to a standstill and then with
handbrake
applied jammed into gear so as to stall the engine (or it will
continue burning its own lubricating oil until failure). Quite an
unrelated issue, just worth mentioning :-)[/quote]
hard to get with EFI.

Only old mechanical injectors or a split fuel hose pumping fuel into the
intake somehow does that. 99% of cars have electric fuel pumps and
injecors. Switch them off.

Diesel. Diesels will quite happily run on their own lubricating oil
if enough of it can get into the combustion chambers. Either down
worn valve guides, past the rings or from a failed bearing in a
turbo. No amount of switching off, rev limiter or ECU control is
going to stop it, the "fuel" is not under any control. The only way
stop it is to block the air intake or stall it. Blocking the air
intake is not likely to be an option on a modern car so that only
leaves stalling.

I don't think you'd get the brakes of a modern car to fade trying to
stall a lube oil burning diesel. I have had brakes fade on me but
that was near the bottom of a very spirited descent of 1000' over a
few miles with lots of bends and using the brakes rather than the
engine.

Ive had em fade to less than half (subjective) stopping from 115mph on
an Opel Manta.

I tried the same trick from 140mph in a XKR, and they managed to do that OK.

Bigger better more vented discs.



servio assistance gets lost pretty quickly once that engine is stopped
and you are in neutral also steering assistance. NOT nice.

My experience of brake servo is you get one normal application with
no engine, a very half hearted second application, then sod all
assistance and you'll be pushing the pedal with as much force as you
can muster to get any brake at all.


same here.

Steering servo dies with the engine. That's arguably worse than the
loss of brakes as you'll really have to heave the steering wheel to
get any movement.


Depends on the model. Some of us drive non servo steering anyway so its
not so hard to get used to.

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:31:18 -0800, Matty F wrote:
However I do work in an automobile museum

Which one, JOOI?

I remember a good one at Te Puke, and another at Paraparaumu, and then
some chap - I think it was out west somewhere - who had amassed a
ridiculous number of Morris Minors (amongst other interesting stuff). The
latter one was more "lots of old stuff in a dirty barn", but then lots of
museums in NZ were like that and all the better for it - it appeals to my
sense of exploration :-)

cheers

Jules

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Matty F wrote:
I've owned around 15 cars dating from 1950, mostly British. I'm not
aware if any of them had a rev limiter - the older ones certainly
didn't. Without a rev limiter the engine will scream up to maximum
revs, and pistons and con rods will start coming outside the engine in
a few seconds.

Depends. Valve float is the first thing to happen on a pushrod engine -
the springs just can't keep up. So the valves stay open and the engine
misfires limiting the revs. Some designs might break a conrod or crank -
but not all.

a lot depends on the weakest link.

In a racing engine, mainly it is the valves. Ultimately. Which is why F1
engines use compressed air to slam the valves shut. Ought to use sleeve
valves..;-)

On BMC A series engines, always the big ends. WAY before the springs
started bouncing. ISTR that a racing mini would go out with special HT
big end bolts, and possibly a different spec of conrod.

'rod through the block' was the standard failure mode on those.

However in road use, they were so strangled and de-timed valve wise, it
was hard to get them up to that sort of limit.

I am not sure where modern engines are at.

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:35:19 +0000, geoff wrote:
So ...

given a long enough stretch and a following wind, Drivels Prius could
almost get up to 30 mph

Following wind countered by the wind coming from his gob, though. If
there's no wind, he just goes backwards.


mostly he blows it out of his arse though.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Matty F wrote:
No I haven't, but I have heard of others who have. I've had five
Jaguars and Daimlers and I like to look after them. However there are
plenty of people saying that over revving can cause the valves to
bounce and touch the pistons, and that can cause severe damage.
Different makes of engine have different clearances between the valves
and pistons.

Plenty may say that but I don't believe it.

thats down to you. It DOES happen.
In racing, all the time. Normally its no big deal because the piston
knocks the valve upwards a bit faster. But before that happens you have
already lost compression anyway, so its a zone where power rapidly
tails off.



Only time valves hit pistons
is when the valve drive breaks altering the timing. Such 'interference'
engines are common these days - but as been said just about every car made
since about '90 has a engine speed limiter built into the management. And
plenty earlier ones too. On my old Rover V-8 with no speed limiter the
hydraulic tappets act as one - try and go above the maximum revs and they
just cease opening the valves. Of course if it's an auto this can't happen
in practice. But what I'm saying is if you selected neutral on full
throttle so the engine revved to max before switching off you'd be unlucky
to do any damage. If you left it running like that indefinitely of course
you would. But why would you?

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:38:09 -0800, Matty F wrote:
US made parts probably

Yeah, they build some real junk over here :-(

The recall affects ...

Hmm, OK - much newer than our toy yoda, then.

According to Toyota, cars with problematic accelerator assemblies will
have gas pedals that are slower to return or feel rough while
depressing.

That does sound more like wear in sliding parts than something like a
broken spring. Perhaps even issues with the cables (I've known them to
'gum up' on much older vehicles, but I'm sure it can affect relatively-new
stuff too if their quality control / testing isn't the best).

Some experts, including Safety Research & Strategies Kane, believe
the Toyota issue is indicative of a larger problem that is looming in
the automotive industry. Many vehicles, including Toyota and Lexus brand
cars, have given up on decades-old technology that uses a steel cable to
control acceleration and have moved to computer controlled systems
called drive-by-wire.

Having been in IT for years, I'm rather mistrusting of IT systems I
like mechanical controls...

cheers

Jules

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Matty F wrote:
Some experts, including Safety Research & Strategies Kane, believe
the Toyota issue is indicative of a larger problem that is looming in
the automotive industry. Many vehicles, including Toyota and Lexus
brand cars, have given up on decades-old technology that uses a steel
cable to control acceleration and have moved to computer controlled
systems called drive-by-wire.

Kane said the systems are unsafe and that national regulators should
not be focusing on just Toyota. He urged an industry-wide
investigation into the technology.

Sounds like someone with an axe to grind. Mechanical throttle linkages are
a crude way of doing things with modern engine management. Perhaps he
wants to go back to carbs and points too. But I'll bet doesn't want to pay
for the heavier fuel consumption of those older cars.
Nor are mechanical throttle linkages perfectly safe either. I well
remember flooring an E-Type Jag and the throttle sticking wide open. A 90
degree pivot on the rod linkage had gone over centre. That early example
had been fitted with an aftermarket steering lock which didn't lock the
steering when I switched off. After slowing the car on the brakes. It was
in second gear.

I've had a car stick wide open too. I stamped hard on the accelerator
and it flipped back. classic case is a broken carb return spring and a
cable, designed to pull but not push.

the rod linkage is at least better. But a broken return spring still
makes em distinctly dodgy.

A LOT of side conversions (LHD-RHD) and vice versa) use cables that
have to go a long way, and often on sub optimal paths.

As a mechanic informed me in RHD S Africa 'In germany, VW it is shorter
cable..here to here. This side it goes all around the engine see, and
that is why it breaks' He was german of course.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 09:34:07 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Kane said the systems are unsafe and that national regulators should
not be focusing on just Toyota. He urged an industry-wide
investigation into the technology.

Sounds like someone with an axe to grind. Mechanical throttle linkages are
a crude way of doing things with modern engine management. Perhaps he
wants to go back to carbs and points too. But I'll bet doesn't want to pay
for the heavier fuel consumption of those older cars.

Maybe. I'll gladly take increased running costs for ease of maintenance
any day though, I think. I like engineering that I can "see".

Nor are mechanical throttle linkages perfectly safe either. I well
remember flooring an E-Type Jag and the throttle sticking wide open. A
90 degree pivot on the rod linkage had gone over centre.

Yeah, experienced exactly that problem on a Rover P6 too during a
"tinkering phase" (very modified engine and therefore modified carb
linkage).

cheers

Jules

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Steering servo dies with the engine. That's arguably worse than the
loss of brakes as you'll really have to heave the steering wheel to
get any movement.


Depends on the model. Some of us drive non servo steering anyway so its
not so hard to get used to.

There's a big difference between two identical cars one with power
steering and the other not in effort when the PS dies. The PS is usually
higher geared - but I'd guess has much more friction too due to the extra
seals etc. I've driven an SD1 with manual steering which although heavy is
manageable. Mine if the power fails simply isn't - apart from to pull into
the verge.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Depends. Valve float is the first thing to happen on a pushrod engine -
the springs just can't keep up. So the valves stay open and the engine
misfires limiting the revs. Some designs might break a conrod or crank -
but not all.

a lot depends on the weakest link.

In a racing engine, mainly it is the valves. Ultimately. Which is why F1
engines use compressed air to slam the valves shut. Ought to use sleeve
valves..;-)

Racing engines are somewhat different..

On BMC A series engines, always the big ends. WAY before the springs
started bouncing. ISTR that a racing mini would go out with special HT
big end bolts, and possibly a different spec of conrod.

Depends which version. There are many, many. And of course if you fit
stiffer valve springs to increase the rev limit something else will go.
But the original 850 Mini could be driven flat out all day - I often did
just this. And hit valve bounce in the lower gears often. ;-) Older A
series weren't so robust. Nor was the later early 1100. They then
increased the crank dimensions.

'rod through the block' was the standard failure mode on those.

However in road use, they were so strangled and de-timed valve wise, it
was hard to get them up to that sort of limit.

Of course.

I am not sure where modern engines are at.

They all have rev limiters built in to the engine management.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Plenty may say that but I don't believe it.

thats down to you. It DOES happen.
In racing, all the time.

WTF has that got to do with the discussion? Racing cars don't have floor
mats to jam the pedal. ;-)

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
Sounds like someone with an axe to grind. Mechanical throttle linkages
are a crude way of doing things with modern engine management. Perhaps
he wants to go back to carbs and points too. But I'll bet doesn't want
to pay for the heavier fuel consumption of those older cars.

Maybe. I'll gladly take increased running costs for ease of maintenance
any day though, I think. I like engineering that I can "see".

Hmm. Thing is there is hardly any maintenance on modern cars. No points
that need regular attention. Plugs that last 100,000 miles. 15,000 mile
service intervals.

And the likes of 'us' learned how to change and set points etc because we
had to - but simply didn't (wouldn't) learn about engine management. Even
although most of the things that go wrong like sensors can still be tested
with pretty basic equipment - if you have an idea which one has gone wrong.

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The effect of engine stop on power steering (P/S) varies.
Electric P/S is unaffected, Hydraulic P/S is affected to a lesser/
greater extent by the design and obviously vehicle speed.
If the engine stops, firstly you must turn the wheels against tyre
resistance (which increases with decreasing vehicle speed), secondly
you must turn against the resistance of the P/S pump whose pulley is
held by the stationary engine. P/S operate at 820-1920psi so pushing
fluid past the pump seals/bypass does present some resistance if the
engine stops or belt breaks, it makes steering "slow".

Steering lock.
The rule is key in the ignition turned to ACC because the key is
latched (can't be jolted out). Key retention in the off position is
very slight (tumblers), such that a risk exists in towing if enough
weight exists on the keyring and the car swerves around a corner.

As I corrected my post, I suspect most people will declutch or brake
(automatic conditioning) rather than turn the engine off (unusual
action). Those that panic and turn the engine off may simply not make
it across sufficient lanes, the greater risk is in a town centre with
pedestrians - the steering & brake impairment might create an
accident.

Over rev by WOT is prevented by rev-limiter.
Over rev by road wheels is not - it can be caused by miss-shift (E36
Me) or towing with drive wheels on the ground in a low gear (Miata
caught plenty out in the USA). On the E36 M3 going just a little past
the rev-limiter would trash the engine, on others you could run even
1250rpm past with no damage. Top-end damage depends on interference
and spring poundage, lifter type. Bottom-end damage can be hidden at
first (big end bearing tang movement).

The Recall wording again negates the often tried "I was not speeding,
the car suddenly accelerated" defence :-)

I agree cable route can be an issue - I'm sure there was one USA RHD-
to-LHD car which if the firewall was pushed by the passenger could
affect the controls to some extent (it had linkages from one side to
the other). Things should have improved since then. Most Japanese
makers do not QC inbound, the supplier must test & print results on
the package which is rejected at the door if out of specification.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Steering servo dies with the engine. That's arguably worse than the
loss of brakes as you'll really have to heave the steering wheel to
get any movement.


Depends on the model. Some of us drive non servo steering anyway so its
not so hard to get used to.


I have speed sensitive PAS. It's off on the motorway.

It did fail on me once (known problem - dodgy relay - cured by cycling
the ignition a few times) and it's a B**** to park without it.

However...

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-acce...call-in-europe

Andy

In message . com, Jules
writes
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 00:38:09 -0800, Matty F wrote:
US made parts probably

Yeah, they build some real junk over here :-(

The recall affects ...

Hmm, OK - much newer than our toy yoda, then.

According to Toyota, cars with problematic accelerator assemblies will
have gas pedals that are slower to return or feel rough while
depressing.

That does sound more like wear in sliding parts than something like a
broken spring. Perhaps even issues with the cables (I've known them to
'gum up' on much older vehicles, but I'm sure it can affect relatively-new
stuff too if their quality control / testing isn't the best).

Some experts, including Safety Research & Strategies Kane, believe
the Toyota issue is indicative of a larger problem that is looming in
the automotive industry. Many vehicles, including Toyota and Lexus brand
cars, have given up on decades-old technology that uses a steel cable to
control acceleration and have moved to computer controlled systems
called drive-by-wire.

Having been in IT for years, I'm rather mistrusting of IT systems I
like mechanical controls...

Best not fly in a commercial airliner then ...


--
geoff

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Jules wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:35:19 +0000, geoff wrote:
So ...

given a long enough stretch and a following wind, Drivels Prius
could almost get up to 30 mph
Following wind countered by the wind coming from his gob, though. If
there's no wind, he just goes backwards.

mostly he blows it out of his arse though.

Net forward propulsion then,

without the need for all those horrendous batteries


--
geoff

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:01:45 +0000, geoff wrote:

Having been in IT for years, I'm rather mistrusting of IT systems
I
like mechanical controls...

Best not fly in a commercial airliner then ...

And avoid TD5 powered cars like Discoverys and Defenders...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:08:08 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Jules wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:35:19 +0000, geoff wrote:
So ...

given a long enough stretch and a following wind, Drivels Prius
could almost get up to 30 mph
Following wind countered by the wind coming from his gob, though. If
there's no wind, he just goes backwards.

mostly he blows it out of his arse though.

Net forward propulsion then,

without the need for all those horrendous batteries

If it comes out of both ends at once, I bet he undergoes some kind of
Catherine wheel effect. (Drivel, if you find yourself spinning rapidy end
over end, either clench or shut up)

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:01:45 +0000, geoff wrote:
Having been in IT for years, I'm rather mistrusting of IT systems I
like mechanical controls...

Best not fly in a commercial airliner then ...

:-) The thing is, it doesn't really bug me if I'm not at the controls - it
must be some kind of risk/responsibility thing, and I'm OK with other
(experienced) folk putting their faith in such systems, I just prefer not
to have to do it myself. I love flying in planes (well, takeoffs and
landings - the bit in the middle can get a bit dull :-).

The root of it might be that I've seen plenty of mechanical systems
degrade quite slowly over time as things wear out, whereas I've seen lots
of electronic or computerised systems go from "completely working" to
"utterly buggered" in the blink of an eye. Not that it can't and doesn't
happen that way with mechanical systems too, of course, but I feel like on
the whole I get more warning that "something's going wrong" with a
mechanical setup - and sometimes that gives enough time to take whatever
action's appropriate.

cheers

Jules

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:01:45 +0000, geoff wrote:

Having been in IT for years, I'm rather mistrusting of IT systems
I
like mechanical controls...
Best not fly in a commercial airliner then ...

And avoid TD5 powered cars like Discoverys and Defenders...

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
The root of it might be that I've seen plenty of mechanical systems
degrade quite slowly over time as things wear out, whereas I've seen
lots of electronic or computerised systems go from "completely working"
to "utterly buggered" in the blink of an eye. Not that it can't and
doesn't happen that way with mechanical systems too, of course, but I
feel like on the whole I get more warning that "something's going wrong"
with a mechanical setup - and sometimes that gives enough time to take
whatever action's appropriate.

You're implying throttle cables don't snap. ;-)

The thing is with an auto the relationship between throttle position and
control to that is critical. Some older boxes used a mechanical link for
that (BW 35, etc) and in practice it was invariably well off the correct
setting in short order. Later (or better) boxes used a vacuum link which
at least took mechanical wear or adjustment out of the equation but has
other problems. If you go to electronics you can use the same signal for
both engine and gearbox. And car electronics are here to stay.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Jan 29, 2:41 am, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:31:18 -0800, Matty F wrote:
However I do work in an automobile museum

Which one, JOOI?

I'm not at liberty to say

I remember a good one at Te Puke, and another at Paraparaumu, and then
some chap - I think it was out west somewhere - who had amassed a
ridiculous number of Morris Minors (amongst other interesting stuff). The
latter one was more "lots of old stuff in a dirty barn", but then lots of
museums in NZ were like that and all the better for it - it appeals to my
sense of exploration :-)

We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:46:50 -0800, Matty F wrote:

On Jan 29, 2:41 am, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:31:18 -0800, Matty F wrote:
However I do work in an automobile museum

Which one, JOOI?

I'm not at liberty to say

Bah! :-)

We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

I think I see a speck of dirt! No, that's rather nice indeed. I was
impressed with the amount of 'old metal' I used to see knocking around NZ
roads. And old stuff in general, actually - lots of folk who have
their heads screwed on right and don't get suckered into always buying the
latest-and-greatest things...

Closest I've got to the above is this (unearthed in our woods):

http://www.patooie.com/temp/packard/...d_front_sm.jpg

;-)

cheers

Jules

On Jan 30, 3:29 am, Jules
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:46:50 -0800, Matty F wrote:

We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

I think I see a speck of dirt! No, that's rather nice indeed. I was
impressed with the amount of 'old metal' I used to see knocking around NZ
roads. And old stuff in general, actually - lots of folk who have
their heads screwed on right and don't get suckered into always buying the
latest-and-greatest things...

Closest I've got to the above is this (unearthed in our woods):

http://www.patooie.com/temp/packard/...d_front_sm.jpg

;-)

We got a Packard too:
http://i46.tinypic.com/147g54.jpg
I believe this one was fully restored and then burnt in a fire and
restored again. So most of it might be fake.

We don't have salt on the roads in NZ and the climate is OK so cars
last a long time.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 09:19:40 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
The root of it might be that I've seen plenty of mechanical systems
degrade quite slowly over time as things wear out, whereas I've seen
lots of electronic or computerised systems go from "completely working"
to "utterly buggered" in the blink of an eye. Not that it can't and
doesn't happen that way with mechanical systems too, of course, but I
feel like on the whole I get more warning that "something's going wrong"
with a mechanical setup - and sometimes that gives enough time to take
whatever action's appropriate.

You're implying throttle cables don't snap. ;-)

No, not really - that's covered in "Not that it can't and doesn't happen
that way with mechanical systems too" :-) But I've seen far more throttle
cables start to fray (such that it's clear that they need replacing before
there's any problem during use) or ones that have slipped and gone out of
adjustment at the far end than I have ones that have outright broken.

And car electronics are here to stay.

You're probably right there (barring some global catastrophe, but at that
point having a vehicle at all is perhaps irrelevant).

I think I can get another 40 or 50 years out of our truck though (no
electronic anything, even the voltage regulator is electro-mechanical) if
I stockpile a few "consumables" over the next few years. The only thing
that would really keep it off the road is if the fuel supply dries up
(which could happen within that lifespan)

cheers

Jules

In article . com,
Jules wrote:
I think I can get another 40 or 50 years out of our truck though (no
electronic anything, even the voltage regulator is electro-mechanical) if
I stockpile a few "consumables" over the next few years. The only thing
that would really keep it off the road is if the fuel supply dries up
(which could happen within that lifespan)

I've replaced those electro mechanical regulators for dynamos with solid
state ones. You can get much better performance out of the dynamo with
one. Being home built I wasn't worried about it failing - much more easily
repaired than a mechanical one. But they never did.

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message . com, Jules
writes
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:46:50 -0800, Matty F wrote:

On Jan 29, 2:41 am, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:31:18 -0800, Matty F wrote:
However I do work in an automobile museum

Which one, JOOI?

I'm not at liberty to say

Bah! :-)

We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

I think I see a speck of dirt! No, that's rather nice indeed. I was
impressed with the amount of 'old metal' I used to see knocking around NZ
roads. And old stuff in general, actually - lots of folk who have
their heads screwed on right and don't get suckered into always buying the
latest-and-greatest things...

Closest I've got to the above is this (unearthed in our woods):

http://www.patooie.com/temp/packard/...d_front_sm.jpg

It's a start ...

--
geoff

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:03:45 +0000, geoff wrote:
Closest I've got to the above is this (unearthed in our woods):

http://www.patooie.com/temp/packard/...d_front_sm.jpg

It's a start ...

:-) The main body's in a field way out back, upside-down and horribly
crumpled. I found rear mudguards, running boards and seats in the woods,
too.

I believe that the chassis rails are what's partially holding up the
mother of all grapevines along one side of the woods (certainly chassis
rails from something, but hard to tell if they're Packard).

Quite why it met such a terrible end, I'm not sure.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:46:50 -0800 (PST) Matty F wrote :
We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

Those headlights must have had a devastating effect on economy and
performance.

I've got the Fox Classic Car Museum a few minutes walk away

http://www.foxcollection.org.au/

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com

On Jan 30, 1:07 pm, Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:46:50 -0800 (PST) Matty F wrote :

We have quality cars!
http://i50.tinypic.com/qswrja.jpg

Those headlights must have had a devastating effect on economy and
performance.

Jaguars have become more streamlined over the years (my latest one at
bottom):
http://i47.tinypic.com/amvdhz.jpg

One of the earliest Jags SS 1934, restored by a friend of mine:
http://i50.tinypic.com/14xmki9.jpg

I've got the Fox Classic Car Museum a few minutes walk away

http://www.foxcollection.org.au/

Now they look very expensive!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

There's a big difference between two identical cars one with power
steering and the other not in effort when the PS dies. The PS is usually
higher geared - but I'd guess has much more friction too due to the extra
seals etc. I've driven an SD1 with manual steering which although heavy is
manageable. Mine if the power fails simply isn't - apart from to pull into
the verge.

Not just the gearing - the castor and kingpin angles are usually
different on PS, leading to a terrible draggy effect when the PS goes
off.

In article
,
Matty F wrote:
Jaguars have become more streamlined over the years (my latest one at
bottom):
http://i47.tinypic.com/amvdhz.jpg

But nothing like as imposing or 'different' from others like the MkVII and
its family. Despite the later car being one of the best developments of
the XJ6.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
There's a big difference between two identical cars one with power
steering and the other not in effort when the PS dies. The PS is
usually higher geared - but I'd guess has much more friction too due to
the extra seals etc. I've driven an SD1 with manual steering which
although heavy is manageable. Mine if the power fails simply isn't -
apart from to pull into the verge.

Not just the gearing - the castor and kingpin angles are usually
different on PS, leading to a terrible draggy effect when the PS goes
off.
They're not on the SD1 which has simple strut front suspension. The only
change is the rack itself. Although the manual steering version I drove
had smaller wheels and tyres. But should have weighed less than the power
steering car I own.

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.